The Return of Talking Time

Go Back   The Return of Talking Time > Talking about media > Talking about TV and film

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #5731  
Old 03-03-2015, 03:14 AM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,029
Default

I'm watching the Return of Spock. Whose idea was it to make Checkov dress like a space-Pilgrim? I also like Sulu's space-kimono, even though the dude is American.
Reply With Quote
  #5732  
Old 03-03-2015, 03:27 AM
Loki's Avatar
Loki Loki is online now
#deadfish2017
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,665
Default

What's Return of Spock?

Edit: non-snark content.

Reply With Quote
  #5733  
Old 03-03-2015, 10:09 AM
boyonion's Avatar
boyonion boyonion is offline
one zero zero one SOS
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,048
Default

Finally moving on through the TNG re-watch and, appropriately, "Unification Part 1" featured the return of Spock! I forget how Part 2 ends. Will be watching it tonight.

Also, "The Game"

One of those nostalgic episodes I had recorded as a child for constant re-watching. Yeah. This one... doesn't hold up, guys. What an absolute pile.

But honestly? While TNG has its fair share of mediocre episodes, it has way fewer outright turkeys once S3 starts. I can only really think of four episodes (including "The Game") that I'd call turkeys post-season 2.
Reply With Quote
  #5734  
Old 03-03-2015, 10:45 AM
Büge's Avatar
Büge Büge is online now
Safe Space
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TO, ON, CA
Posts: 14,770
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyonion View Post
Also, "The Game"

One of those nostalgic episodes I had recorded as a child for constant re-watching. Yeah. This one... doesn't hold up, guys. What an absolute pile.
Hey, it launched Ashley Judd's career.
Reply With Quote
  #5735  
Old 03-03-2015, 11:09 AM
Red Hedgehog's Avatar
Red Hedgehog Red Hedgehog is offline
For blood and gold
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 14,409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyonion View Post
Also, "The Game"
That and Q-pid? You are now dead to me.

The Game is not a great episode, but it's a perfectly fun Star Trek does action-suspense and is the first episode to make Wesley Crusher an interesting character. I mean, in a season with Imaginary Friend, The Masterpiece Society, Silicon Avatar, and Cost of Living, calling The Game a pile is just exaggeration.
Reply With Quote
  #5736  
Old 03-03-2015, 12:01 PM
boyonion's Avatar
boyonion boyonion is offline
one zero zero one SOS
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,048
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Hedgehog View Post
That and Q-pid? You are now dead to me.

The Game is not a great episode, but it's a perfectly fun Star Trek does action-suspense and is the first episode to make Wesley Crusher an interesting character. I mean, in a season with Imaginary Friend, The Masterpiece Society, Silicon Avatar, and Cost of Living, calling The Game a pile is just exaggeration.
What's wrong with Silicon Avatar...? I really liked it.
Reply With Quote
  #5737  
Old 03-03-2015, 03:36 PM
Red Hedgehog's Avatar
Red Hedgehog Red Hedgehog is offline
For blood and gold
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 14,409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyonion View Post
What's wrong with Silicon Avatar...? I really liked it.
It's one of those episodes that's built too heavily on a guest character instead of the regular crew and the character study we're given is dry and too compressed to be a believable and/or interesting. And the "confrontation" at the end with the Crystalline Entity is just the least interesting thing ever (not that it was an interesting "villain" to begin with).

Just about everyone involved in the episode (Michael Piller, Jeri Taylor, Cliff Bole, and Brent Spiner) was disappointed with it.
Reply With Quote
  #5738  
Old 03-03-2015, 08:24 PM
boyonion's Avatar
boyonion boyonion is offline
one zero zero one SOS
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,048
Default

I think the Entity is extremely interesting, and in the story functions as a creature driven by instinct. The doctor is driven by vengeance to remove the threat without taking measures to non-violently convince it to stop. There's no telling how compassionate it could be, but we'll never know. It's the same destructive arrogance demonstrated by people who think killing a lost wild animal is a reasonable reaction to the unfortunate mauling of some jogger. Why kill the bear if there's a possibility of returning it to its home? Why kill the Entity if you can potentially befriend it? If no malicious intent, why the extreme punishment?*

The hour is compressed, yeah, but no more than anything else IMO. And I really liked how reasonable Picard and Riker both came off, even while at odds with each other. Riker "got the girl" at the beginning, but then she died. Seemed like there'd be some melodramatic hand-wringing, but it ended up informing enough of Riker's position on the Entity to be believable (if it killed a family member or something, his stoicism would be harder to buy). Picard wrongly calls him out for being biased and gets chastised well by Riker.

There's a lot I really like in the episode. Not sure exactly why the creators aren't proud of it (maybe it's not the story they wanted to tell or something), but what was on screen worked pretty well for me.

Anyway, "Unification Part 2". Some good moments, but a bit of a let down. Commander Sela is amazingly pointless and obviously loony-toon-villain incompetent. Denise Crosby just... isn't good in the role. Stiff, unconvincing, and mediocre dialogue (not her fault). Going up against Leonard Nimoy and Patrick Stewart must be one of the most lop-sided distributions of charisma and charm in the history of television.

*I'm not trying to explain the plot to you as if you're a dummy and didn't get it or anything. Just articulating what I like about the show's central conflict.
Reply With Quote
  #5739  
Old 03-03-2015, 11:37 PM
Falselogic's Avatar
Falselogic Falselogic is offline
Threadcromantosaurus Rex
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: California
Posts: 30,533
Default

The Voyager episode with the crew hating and punishing a holographic representation of a Cardassian doctor is incredibly dumb...

EDIT: SO FUCKING DUMB
Reply With Quote
  #5740  
Old 03-04-2015, 12:56 PM
taosterman's Avatar
taosterman taosterman is online now
Gesundheit!
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ann ARR-BRR
Posts: 9,853
Default

Everyone in San Francisco who encounters something weird and "outer space" about the crew in The Voyage Home responds with an odd mix of fear and apathy. The '80s!
Reply With Quote
  #5741  
Old 03-04-2015, 04:45 PM
Daikaiju's Avatar
Daikaiju Daikaiju is offline
King Of Space-Time
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 16,489
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falselogic View Post
The Voyager episode with the crew hating and punishing a holographic representation of a Cardassian doctor is incredibly dumb...

EDIT: SO FUCKING DUMB
wat.
Reply With Quote
  #5742  
Old 03-04-2015, 05:28 PM
ArugulaZ's Avatar
ArugulaZ ArugulaZ is online now
Just bear with me
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,307
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by taosterman View Post
Everyone in San Francisco who encounters something weird and "outer space" about the crew in The Voyage Home responds with an odd mix of fear and apathy.
Well, if a Russian guy in 1987 were wandering around asking for "nuclear wessels," I'd be a lot more worried than apathetic.
Reply With Quote
  #5743  
Old 03-04-2015, 05:45 PM
taosterman's Avatar
taosterman taosterman is online now
Gesundheit!
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ann ARR-BRR
Posts: 9,853
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
Well, if a Russian guy in 1987 were wandering around asking for "nuclear wessels," I'd be a lot more worried than apathetic.
That's the thing, nobody acts on that, even the cop. But I'm thinking more of characters like the sanitation workers who see Kirk emerge from the Bird of Prey.
Reply With Quote
  #5744  
Old 03-04-2015, 06:04 PM
Jeanie's Avatar
Jeanie Jeanie is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9,208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falselogic View Post
The Voyager episode with the crew hating and punishing a holographic representation of a Cardassian doctor is incredibly dumb...

EDIT: SO FUCKING DUMB
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daikaiju View Post
wat.
So basic rundown: The Doctor has a medical problem that he can't solve, so he Holodeck's up the Cardassian/Bajoran equivalent of Dr. Mengele to brainstorm with, since this problem was something the real version worked on during the Occupation.

It's basically like that episode of TNG with Geordi and Leah Brahms with more Holocaust overtones, but EVERYONE else on Voyager thinks it's a horrible thing. Which means it's either the absolute worst idea ever or the best, since the crew of Voyager has bad decision making skills, but in this case the blind squirrel finds a nut and this really is a bad idea.
Reply With Quote
  #5745  
Old 03-04-2015, 06:40 PM
taosterman's Avatar
taosterman taosterman is online now
Gesundheit!
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ann ARR-BRR
Posts: 9,853
Default

That episode was kind of silly, but I did like that Voyager was the only Trek to really explore the ethical implications of the holodeck, instead of just using it as a lazy storytelling device.
Reply With Quote
  #5746  
Old 03-04-2015, 07:28 PM
muteKi's Avatar
muteKi muteKi is offline
an eeling of Christmas
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Green chile cheeseburger capital of the world
Posts: 9,877
Default

Voyager feels like it should have been the advanced version of starfleet ethics (especially given the strange and unfamiliar territory they were in regularly and the lack of supplies they had) and yet every time they explore the ethical implications of things other series took for granted (see also: the Q continuum) they do it in a goofy way that almost trivializes it.

that said, props for the confederate metaphor, that was actually pretty cool
Reply With Quote
  #5747  
Old 03-04-2015, 07:53 PM
Mightyblue's Avatar
Mightyblue Mightyblue is online now
Are You Sure About That?
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Somewhere cold. And frosty.
Posts: 21,098
Default

The episode was probably meant to evoke that period of history post-WWII where medical science advanced leaps and bounds based on what was learned from Mengele's et al's experiments. There were all kinds of arguments against using that knowledge considering the sourcing, but the prevailing argument was that destroying that knowledge was a waste, both in terms of potential lives saved and in terms of the human cost already paid.
Reply With Quote
  #5748  
Old 03-04-2015, 08:03 PM
Büge's Avatar
Büge Büge is online now
Safe Space
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TO, ON, CA
Posts: 14,770
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by muteKi View Post
Voyager feels like it should have been the advanced version of starfleet ethics (especially given the strange and unfamiliar territory they were in regularly and the lack of supplies they had) and yet every time they explore the ethical implications of things other series took for granted (see also: the Q continuum) they do it in a goofy way that almost trivializes it.
At least Ron Moore was able to use it as practice for Battlestar Galactica.
Reply With Quote
  #5749  
Old 03-04-2015, 08:06 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,029
Default

I had no problems with that episode. We see far worse holodeck shenanigans on a regular basis that make far less sense. I thought it brought together a bunch of moral conundrums and then addressed them in a largely responsible manner.

Like, I know Voyager was a sloppy and haphazard show. But the anti-Voyager circlejerk I can't really abide by. The asspulls and ethical decision making is honestly on the level with TOS. Voyager in my mind is probably the most faithful Star Trek to the original series in terms of corn, writing quality, and tone. If we can let things slide, or laugh at TOS for being silly, we ought to be able to do the same with VOY. I understand the impulse to take Star Trek super cereal, but I think in this instance it's going too far.
Reply With Quote
  #5750  
Old 03-04-2015, 08:18 PM
Falselogic's Avatar
Falselogic Falselogic is offline
Threadcromantosaurus Rex
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: California
Posts: 30,533
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
I had no problems with that episode. We see far worse holodeck shenanigans on a regular basis that make far less sense. I thought it brought together a bunch of moral conundrums and then addressed them in a largely responsible manner.

Like, I know Voyager was a sloppy and haphazard show. But the anti-Voyager circlejerk I can't really abide by. The asspulls and ethical decision making is honestly on the level with TOS. Voyager in my mind is probably the most faithful Star Trek to the original series in terms of corn, writing quality, and tone. If we can let things slide, or laugh at TOS for being silly, we ought to be able to do the same with VOY. I understand the impulse to take Star Trek super cereal, but I think in this instance it's going too far.
I'm not anti voyager. I've been enjoying the show by and large. I just thought that the setup failed in setting up the ethical dilemma in that show
Reply With Quote
  #5751  
Old 03-04-2015, 08:25 PM
Loki's Avatar
Loki Loki is online now
#deadfish2017
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,665
Default

Speaking of Voyager's doctor, was there ever a satisfactory explanation why a hologram could pick up a thing?
Reply With Quote
  #5752  
Old 03-04-2015, 08:35 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,029
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki View Post
Speaking of Voyager's doctor, was there ever a satisfactory explanation why a hologram could pick up a thing?
Aren't holograms elaborate sets of force fields enveloping light projections? IIRC they say that multiple times.
Reply With Quote
  #5753  
Old 03-04-2015, 08:42 PM
Loki's Avatar
Loki Loki is online now
#deadfish2017
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,665
Default

Satisfactory I said
Reply With Quote
  #5754  
Old 03-04-2015, 09:01 PM
Sanagi's Avatar
Sanagi Sanagi is offline
who's she
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: fairbanks, alaska
Posts: 10,714
Default

I like how Red Dwarf addressed that problem, which was to say "hard light" and just move on before anyone could ask any awkward questions.
Reply With Quote
  #5755  
Old 03-04-2015, 09:10 PM
Büge's Avatar
Büge Büge is online now
Safe Space
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TO, ON, CA
Posts: 14,770
Default

He works the same way the shields work.
Reply With Quote
  #5756  
Old 03-04-2015, 09:21 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,029
Default

I don't know what's unsatisfactory about the idea that you can make a hologram, and then let it touch things by putting a forcefield - the same kind we see deployed all over star trek to create artificial barriers out of thin air - around said hologram.
Reply With Quote
  #5757  
Old 03-04-2015, 09:42 PM
Sanagi's Avatar
Sanagi Sanagi is offline
who's she
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: fairbanks, alaska
Posts: 10,714
Default

Yeah, what's really unsatisfactory is thinking about how the holodeck must handle it when two or more people go to different places within the same simulation. I.e. they're actually standing right next to each other and some kind of optical/auditory illusion is just making it seem like they're not. But you're still expected to care about what's happening.
Reply With Quote
  #5758  
Old 03-04-2015, 11:03 PM
ArugulaZ's Avatar
ArugulaZ ArugulaZ is online now
Just bear with me
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,307
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by taosterman View Post
That episode was kind of silly, but I did like that Voyager was the only Trek to really explore the ethical implications of the holodeck, instead of just using it as a lazy storytelling device.
That was, admittedly, an interesting aspect of Voyager.

"We're from the Holographic Liberation Front! Give us your enslaved holograms or we'll destroy you!"
"But they're just programmed for simple tasks! They can't think!"
"Lies! Now face your doom, oppressors!"
(beams up holographic projectors and blows up the ship)
"You're free! How do you feel?"
"I AM BENDER. PLEASE INSERT GIRDER."
"Oh. Oh crap."
Reply With Quote
  #5759  
Old 03-05-2015, 07:45 AM
Daikaiju's Avatar
Daikaiju Daikaiju is offline
King Of Space-Time
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 16,489
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki View Post
Satisfactory I said
Space wizards.
Reply With Quote
  #5760  
Old 03-05-2015, 08:00 AM
Loki's Avatar
Loki Loki is online now
#deadfish2017
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,665
Default

Ooooooooh! Great! TY.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anomaly , fascinating , four lights , get the cheese to sickbay , gold-pressed latinum , i'm sensing hostility , it's a faaaake! , khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan , live long and prosper , lt. barclay , no it's real!!! , o'brien's shoulder , octo-good , resistance is futile , reverse the polarity , science fiction , shaka when the walls fell , shut up wesley , star trek , tachyon , temba his arms wide , the punishment zone , there is one bridge! , welshy!!!! , wesley crusher

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Your posts ©you, 2007