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  #451  
Old 07-31-2017, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mightyblue View Post
Ranka is sympathetic-yet-boring, which is perhaps the most cardinal sin of character design, especially in a lead.
Yeah, you're not wrong. But she's designed to be a very archetype moe-character, made smack dab in the middle of the moe-boom. Which IMO is inherently boring anyways, but you can see where Kawamori was going with the character and why it was probably perplexing to him that it backfired. Turns out, people wanted to 'protect' Sheryl a lot more - probably since she's more sympathetic, more well rounded as a character, faces more dire circumstances, and has that whole secret vulnerability thing going on underneath her tough exterior.

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Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
Ranka becomes a star because Grace wants her to become a star. Ranka has a crisis of faith because Grace's plan needs her to have a crisis of faith. Ranka runs off with her brother because Grace's plan needs her to run off with her brother. Worse, Grace - like Palpatine - has no plausible leverage to exercise to produce this necessary alignment between Ranka's internal life and her overarching plan. Had Ranka been passionate about making Galaxy-Quality Ramen or reaction generator engineering instead of becoming a pop star, Grace's plan would have been a total non-starter.
I have to see if this is the case in the Frontier movies still, but having just seen the TV show this is all categorically false with respects to that.

Ranka more-or-less pulls herself up by her own bootstraps (discounting words of encouragement from friends). She doesn't get scouted by Grace, she got scouted by a small-time zentradi talent agency while singing in an open air mall. And she gains popularity through a combo of steady work, and the good fortune of being a last-minute understudy in the in-universe Macross Zero film. Grace, up until the mid-show climax, spends her time ignoring Ranka's presence, because her plan centers around grooming Sheryl for her plans. And it's only after Ranka flies in to stop the rioting Zentradi that Grace takes notice that Ranka is a better fit for her plan and shifts gears to dispose of Sheryl and use Ranka instead.

Also, when Ranka runs off with her brother, that's actually against Grace's orders and she remarks in her discussions with the Galaxy Cabal that she's surprised he had it in him to rebel like that. It turns out to be a happy coincidence that the two lead her to her goal, but we can assume that this is simply an acceleration of the plans she's already had all along. Because once she leverages the Frontier government to make her switch agencies and work for the government, Grace can take her time decoding and studying the Vajra's network protocols and tracing it back their home planet.

The crisis of faith Ranka experiences is only really necessary to make her docile and easy to handle. And it's again, a very happy coincidence for Grace that things go the way they do. But in lieu of that, it's pretty easy to imagine a scenario where Grace still gets her way with that regard. Grace does have lots of leverage over Ranka - it wouldn't take much to arrange an event like the death of someone very close to her to put her in a similar mindset. Also, if they really needed to, remember that this is a world where Grace can put a doohickey on in your head and control your thoughts and mind, so if it came to that, that's certainly an option. This is also a world where we've previously seen hypnosis/brainwashing through music as well. And absent all of all of that, we still see Grace expertly manipulate Sheryl into doing w/e she wants all show long previously. She can do the same for Ranka easy too, that's why she's their handlers.
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  #452  
Old 08-01-2017, 07:35 AM
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OK - both Frontier films are done. And woof. I think I probably liked them a lot better than the last time, but not enough for me to recommend them. Especially not over the TV show.

The False Songstress is just bad. It's more akin to a Tomino-style compilation movie than something like DYRL that tried to be its own thing. Visually, it's 50-60% reused frames and assets by weight. And that's a huge detriment to its ability to tell a cohesive story when scenes that aren't paced for a film are crammed together and placed next to each other where they might not make a whole lot of sense. It's not as if the plot is necessarily hard to follow like the above mentioned Tomino compilation films from an editing standpoint, but characters very conveniently appear where they're needed and things just kinda happen without a lot of regard for causality or if it would even make sense for a character to do what they did in order to further the plot. And it makes the story kind of a mess. I now assume a lot of what Egarwaen was talking about a few posts back about Grace's machinations are in reference to these films.

The Wings of Farewell was a lot better in contrast because that was maybe 5-10% reuse material tops, and the story felt rebuilt from the ground up to accommodate being a movie rather than things awkwardly shuffled around. A lot of the specifics of how certain events or minor lore aspects differ between the films and the TV show are different in ways that are probably upgrades and should have been included in the TV show. Take for instance the idea that Ranka was already friends with Alto & Co long before the film started, giving their relationship a head start versus Alto & Sheryl so that it's a bit closer of a rivalry. But the execution on all of these changed details are usually lacking to the degree that it makes the changed aspect inferior to the original. And a lot of that has to do with the films penchant for telling not showing.

I'm not really sure I can recommend watching these films. As a spectacle they kinda fail. The fights are beyond discombobulating. I barely kept up on some of the dogfights, and I can't imagine having to have seen this in theaters on a big screen. It's definitely worth it for the new Sheryl & Ranka songs, but you could just listen to the soundtracks instead for that. Most of the changes don't add anything meaningful to the lore of the franchise, and the changes that do happen are largely of a cheap remix variety rather than getting to see something brand new and thus isn't very interesting. (Example: A lot of the plot beats are "what if the opposite happened here versus the TV show" or "what if this thing that happens, happened to a different character instead?") I wouldn't recommend watching it either over the TV show in order to save time, because you'd barely be doing that. Yes, watching the TV show takes ~double the time investment total. But you can watch it peace-meal at your own pace in easily to digest chunks. The films meanwhile demand you must sit and watch in two hour chunks. And TBH, both films are structured and written in a way that it assumes you've watched the TV show already. Not to the degree that it's impenetrable and uses the TV show as a cypher, but in that almost everything is a conscious nod to the show, or events are structured in a way to play your expectations from the show.

A few more observations:
-The Frontier films make it a point to have Sheryl sing some of Ranka's songs, and visa versa. Sometimes it's handled well, sometimes it just feels kinda inappropriate. The singers for those two have very different voices that don't exactly fit with the other person's songs they try to sing sometimes. Not the biggest of deals, but it was mostly weird rather than good. Sheryl shouldn't be singing Aimo.

-Between the TV show and the films, Ranka's VA/singer definitely got better at her job. Or at the very least, Yoko Kanno & whoever else was handling the music trusted her to sing more complicated and interesting songs. In the TV show, Ranka's songs took a backseat because they were often a lot more flat and boring in comparison to Sheryl's. In the films, she holds her own a lot better. Especially in the 2nd.

-The bg music is almost entirely the exact same as from the TV show, so Kanno's efforts must have gone 100% into writing new vocal songs, and it shows b/c most of them are better than the TV show's. That's probably the one thing that the films have over the TV show. Also the concert scenes were a highlight as well, though the oversexed Sheryl ones were... discomforting to say the least. But the Escape from Alcatraz was awesome.

-Everyone knows more than they did in the TV show at pretty much all times of the plot. I suspect the primary reason for this is pure pragmatism to accelerate the plot. If people already know stuff, you don't have to spend anytime establishing what they don't know, and then have them discover things. It also helps keep the viewer on their toes because if the calculus of the plot has changed, then the minute-to-minute of events become unknown quantities again. So things like the idea that Macross Galaxy is plotting to fuck with Frontier and the Vajra is something that everyone on Frontier knows already through counter-intelligence. Or Brera knows Ranka is his sister from the beginning, and Sheryl knows about the Vajra. Unfortunately this sets up some weird plot holes and the plot as a whole begins to crumble when you start poking at them.

-Ranka as a character gets some redemptive changes in the same way that Minmay did in DYRL to address her more obnoxious character traits. Ranka is never suspected or implied to be a traitor. Ranka is demonstrably a more outwardly considerate and compassionate character, and is much more self-aware of her shortcomings. Ranka better expresses her passivity as an ideal and convinces characters of the Vajra as not-enemies a lot earlier in the pot with real conviction. And most of all, she demonstrates far more courage in the plot: she puts her body in harms way repeatedly, confronts Sheryl as a rival directly, and is the first to confess her feelings to Alto. Of course, she still can't beat Sheryl anyways because muh childhood promise.

-The Vajra in the films don't feel nearly as menacing of a threat. Part of that is due to the films focusing in on the Galaxy Cabal from the beginning. But they're just not as demonstrably scary. The fights are fewer, briefer, and less deadly, so they feel less oppressive and dangerous. The borg-adaption storyline also gets dropped from the films, so there's no urgency in worrying about your weapons becoming useless. Same with the Frontier running out of air/supplies from repeated attacks storyline as well, so that level of urgency is gone too. And when the Frontier Fleet itself - that has been studying the Vajra for a fraction of the time that Galaxy or the 114th Expeditionary Fleet has - figures out how to take over Vajra with implants and without singing, suddenly this legendary species that even the Protoculture feared and revered loses a lot of its edge.

-The Frontier films have a real bad problem of telling not showing. Which on the one hand is probably helpful and instructive if you didn't understand some of the TV show's themes, and probably a necessary evil for condensing the plot. But it's a poor substitute for the beauty of subtlety and using the nature of your medium to its fullest to show things to the audience organically than hamfistedly in an exposition dump. For example, there's a discussion Alto has with Ozma towards the middle of the 2nd film. And in it, he explains to Alto that everyone acts roles all the time in their daily lives. Ozma has to act the role of a commanding officer, a cool senpai, a pilot, a brother, and a lover, and that it's not just OK but a good thing. And that it's OK for Alto to do the same, and he doesn't have to feel like a fraud for feeling like he's simply a performative pilot. And while it's certainly more clear to the audience, this was Alto's entire character development arc in the TV show that slowly and naturally played out, and here that's kinda robbed from Alto when someone else has to tell him the thing he needs to realize, and he didn't actually spend much time in the films struggling with that aspect of his identity besides the few times he discussed it directly with the audience. This discussion, btw, just comes completely out of nowhere.

-The supporting cast barely support and are essentially just backdrops. Again, a necessary evil to keep the story on track and condensed, but it's a disappointment. Major supporting characters Ozma & Catherine and Michael & Klan don't feature in any prolonged scenes and are mostly there to facilitate action, or to add suspense to the audience by holding a Sword of Damocles over their heads multiple times. Supporting characters like Nanase, Luca, Canaria, Bobby, and the Bridge Bunnies might as well not exist. And characters like Isamu Dyson gets more speaking lines than Klan Klan's Zentradi teammates.

-Sheryl gets declared an enemy spy. OK. So then the punishment is execution without a trial. Wait, wut. How is that legal?

-Lovely Bomber was a nice touch. Isamu showing up for 2 seconds was groan-worthy levels fanservice.

-Speaking of Isamu, the dude is like 55 by the time of Frontier - I don't buy him still being pilot.

-During one part of a conversation (I think early in the 2nd film) there was Astro Boy and Black Jack anime clips playing on a screen in the background when Brera was talking, and I thought that was a neat little thematic reference at least.

-Canaria's Monster Destroid/Shuttle got some tasteful changes in its pinups for the films. Instead of a lewd Ranka, the first film sees dual pinups of Minmay on one side, and Fire Bomber on the other in historical clothes rather than swimsuits or anything. In the 2nd film, it's changed to Ranka but gracefully fully clothed.

-I suppose it's following tradition with DYRL, but the nudity is gratuitous in the Frontier films, and so is the violence. The ways Leon, President Glass, and Grace go out is extremely brutal.

-I can't emphasize how much I hate the climax of the films. It actually burns a whole lot, because up until the very end, the second film is going balls-to-the-wall, Macrosses are surfing on giant pieces of debris, Alto is doing Kabuki dances in the sky, Brera is ripping circuits out of his face, and Sayonara no Tsubasa is hot fire of a song. And then Brera and Alto both get themselves fuckin' wasted. What a fuckin' bummer.

-A lot of the changed story lines are things that I can understand happen for a reason in the plot. But for some reason, Leon's love interest changes to Luca's previously unestablished sister? Like, why? What did that even add to the story? Other than being a quick way to dissolve/remove the Leon/Catherine/Ozma love triangle from the plot entirely?

-The big last lingering question I have out of both the Frontier TV show and the films is the idea of the fold microbes, and how they spread throughout the galaxy post-Frontier and formed the basis for the VAR outbreak. Because in Frontier, you can only get the v-type infection through direct contact. It's also not easily transmittable from person-to-person either, because we see Alto suck face and get in the sack with Sheryl and he never contracts it. And yet, seven years later, the whole galaxy has contracted it somehow? Did I miss something? Did the Windermere Apples spread it or something?

-Despite some bad plot holes and silly story changes, there are some really cool, striking, visual moments in the films. Like there's a point where we see Battle Frontier rise over the skyline, and the sheer immensity of the size and scale is breathtaking.

-Speaking of Battle Frontier - I'd forgotten that it was Battle Frontier, not Battle Galaxy that got hijacked and merged with the Vajra Queen in the movies. Why'd they have to go and do that.
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  #453  
Old 08-01-2017, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
Ranka more-or-less pulls herself up by her own bootstraps (discounting words of encouragement from friends). She doesn't get scouted by Grace, she got scouted by a small-time zentradi talent agency while singing in an open air mall. And she gains popularity through a combo of steady work, and the good fortune of being a last-minute understudy in the in-universe Macross Zero film. Grace, up until the mid-show climax, spends her time ignoring Ranka's presence, because her plan centers around grooming Sheryl for her plans. And it's only after Ranka flies in to stop the rioting Zentradi that Grace takes notice that Ranka is a better fit for her plan and shifts gears to dispose of Sheryl and use Ranka instead.
I'm curious, then - what do you think Grace's plan for the riot originally was? Sheryl gives a concert, the Zentradi riot, Grace sets off her bomb and kills everyone on the planet, Sheryl included... And then what was her next move going to be?
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  #454  
Old 08-01-2017, 07:24 PM
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I'm curious, then - what do you think Grace's plan for the riot originally was? Sheryl gives a concert, the Zentradi riot, Grace sets off her bomb and kills everyone on the planet, Sheryl included... And then what was her next move going to be?
OK, so this is a great question, and one we can largely answer with deductive reasoning for the most part.

First remember that Sheryl's code designation is "Fairy-9" implying that she's not the first test subject, and certainly won't be the last if she fails. If Sheryl's progress in helping Grace decode the Vajra fold network comes to a premature end, we can assume Grace already has contingency plans in place to carry on the experiment. Grace has been playing a long-con game for 11 years up to this point, so we know she and the Galaxy Cabal are patient in their machinations. The entire events of Frontier happen on a time table that we can assume is vastly accelerated from what Grace & Co are expecting, because they tell us as much repeatedly through both the show and films: "they weren't supposed to attack this soon" etc. And that's because they're operating under a model that isn't accounting for Ranka most of the time, and literally every Vajra attack that happens in the show is because Ranka sings and draws them to her, and it takes Grace & Co a while to figure that out.

Grace is aware of Ranka's presence through the first half of the show, but she dismisses her as a "low-priority" because - to her knowledge - Ranka's development as the Little Queen is nowhere near as far along as Sheryl's. So she's there as a backup, backup, backup plan from day one. Grace is also completely unaware of Ranka's abilities, since nobody but Ranka's mother realized that Ranka's singing as a child drew the Vajra to attack, and she died protecting Ranka and telling her to tell nobody. Ranka's rescue and residency on Frontier is a matter of public record; had Grace known Ranka's power all along, her plans would have likely been radically different from the get-go.

Grace pulls strings and gets the Zentradi to riot and demand a Sheryl concert, and then manipulates Sheryl into thinking she wants to go ("I'll cancel the show, you don't have to go"). The Kamujin-deadringer still wants a revolution, but his people just want to be music-otaku, as we can see that the fighting immediately ends when Ranka shows up. Sheryl's plan is to show up and immediately sing, but her v-type infection stops her, which doesn't appear to be part of the plan. So it seems like this was originally supposed to just be a publicity tour stunt and it went wrong because Sheryl's usefulness appears to have hit its limits at an inopportune time. When Ranka shows up to solve the crisis and Grace finally gets a first-hand look and some data at how her singing works for the Vajra, that's when her plans appear to shift gears to dispose of Sheryl and move to using Ranka since Code Q1 is further along than anticipated.

We don't really know if the bomb was brought along from the beginning or gets delivered later (because they spend a few days on the planet) but it - just guessing - could have been brought along to dispose of evidence from the 117th Expedition Fleet that Grace & Co know are sleeping there.

So ya. A lot of the events of the TV show of Frontier have a lot of happy/useful coincidences line up a little too neatly for the plot to progress, but most of them make sense if you think them out. And it feels like a logical chain of events. Meanwhile the films are just kinda bizarre. Everyone knows almost everything from the get go, but they perform a kind of kabuki dance around each other feigning ignorance and letting the plot go down the exact same path anyways until something forces their hand. And it's just like, "Why didn't you just use this intel to like... do something useful with it earlier?" Like, Sheryl spends the whole time knowing who Alto is but just patiently feigns ignorance because...? Leon taps into the Galaxy Cabal's network and finds incontrovertible evidence of their schemes and just... sits on it until they attempt a coup and a bunch of Frontier personnel die in the process? By all means don't try to stop them earlier when they're off-guard, wait until they all have weapons in their hands! But then you'd have a radically different story with a radically different outcome. And the Frontier films - at their heart -
are still trying to tell the same basic story of Frontier.
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  #455  
Old 08-03-2017, 06:02 PM
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Break out your Japanese iTunes account, the Macross rhythm music game is up! Soon you can have Minmei dance along as Basara sings! Actually it looks like Minmei singing in Basara's voice, which is a little weird.

Also you get Freyja or Ranka for leveling up so pick someone else for your free diva unlock.

Last edited by Grignr; 08-03-2017 at 08:39 PM.
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  #456  
Old 08-06-2017, 10:54 AM
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Delta unsurprisingly getting movie version.

I hope they make Mirage a stronger contender in the Hayatebowl.
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  #457  
Old 08-07-2017, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
-I honestly don't know the purpose of all the smaller-class ships we see in the Macross world like the ARMD or Guantanamo Carriers. Between M7 and Frontier, about a billion of them blow up and serve no purpose except to be coffins for unlimited faceless troops, as well as demonstrate how scary the bad guys are. At this point, you'd think UN Spacy would just stop making them and focus on mass producing Macross-Class ships since they seem to be infinitely more useful in battle and on the whole very durable. Which, kinda happens in the Frontier-film with all the Macross Quarters showing up out of nowhere?
I think it's worth noting that the ARMDs didn't fucking play, primarily on account of their heavy anti-ship reaction missiles. It ultimately didn't matter, because they were so drastically outnumbered, but they could definitely trade with Zentradi shipping.*

I'm a bit circumspect about looking too closely at NUNs heavy shipping in subsequent series, since the battles in those series tend to follow heroic logic, as opposed to the internal logic of SDF. But if I were to speculate, they mostly serve in colony fleets as long-range scouts, and to screen against fighters and vanguard enemy shipping, rather than being proper ships of the line. Emigration fleets aren't battle fleets, and they could generally be expected to fold out, rather than be engaged in a setpiece battle. The Northampton's and such, therefore, are there to detect potential hostiles before the main fleet folds in, or to blunt an enemy attack while the massive colony ships charge their fold drives to jump away.

I'm a bit surprised that NUNS ships don't generally incorporate the ultra-heavy converging beam cannons that the SDF-1 and Zentradi ships did. Besides the external logic of making the fighters and Macross-classes look cooler by comparison, I suppose they figured that the colony fleets could always call up the NUNG and get special dispensation to pull out the reaction weapons if they ran into particularly persistant opposition - no need to bother with expensive dimensional weaponry. And the most likely opposition that you're going to run into is rogue Zentradi that you can obviate as a threat by beaming your running mix on all channels, so.

*On a lark, I went through the footage, and, to my reckoning, the SDF-1 has 4 confirmed kills on Thurvel-Salan Class Battleships - two of them accidental - the ARMDs have one, and, er, First Lieutenant Hikaru Ichijo has one as well.
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  #458  
Old 08-07-2017, 07:50 AM
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I literally can't think of worse Macross news that doesn't have the words "Harmony Gold" in it. I'm increasingly of the mind that compilation films are a blight on the franchise. There's so many interesting stories and unexplored plot threads - especially from Delta - that demand to be explored... and instead we get more rehashing. Gross. Speaking of unnecessary compilation films...

Finally watched Macross FB7: Listen to My Song! for the first time. I'd heard only the worst things about it and thus had very little impetus to sit down and dedicated 1.5hrs to it. It's not bad! But it's not good either.

Functionally, it's basically a M7 compilation film, using the cast of Frontier watching the show on VHS tape as a framing device to explain why it's chopped up, abbreviated, and to provide summaries. And the only purpose of which is to 1) have something to pump out so Macross didn't miss its 30th Anniversary (since Wings of Farewell was 2011 and missed it by a year), and 2) what I can only imagine is that this served as a fancy, hour and a half commercial for the blurays remasters. If you want to go down memory lane with M7 but don't want to dedicate the full ~20hrs necessary to watch the whole thing, this movie hits a lot of the highlights and will show you some of the better set pieces in HD (it's pan and scanned unfortunately, so it's not as good as the M7 BDs but it'll give you a good idea of how gorgeous M7 can look).

As a thing that exists in the Macross universe, it's... weird. The Frontier cast don't really provide anything. Also, the entire excuse for this happening is that Grabil flies in to Frontier, and starts guerrilla bombing Ozma with VHS tapes of M7 for... reasons? It's never explained. And the Frontier cast never begin to question how insane this entire scenario is. They just assume it's like guerrilla marketing or something; "The visuals were great!" It's like that episode in Bebop where Fey learns her past through a Beta tape and nobody stops to question who the hell sent it in the first place. The tapes also contain eye catches, to be continued cards, and narrated recap segments from the beginning of episodes as well, just like in the show.

But! To the Frontier cast, this is all brand new stuff to them, and explains a lot of my earlier questions about how does the Frontier cast not really remember the lessons of M7. They'd never seen the M7 show or apparently anything that remotely explains how Sound Force "defeated" the Protodevilin. They know Fire Bomber, they know all the music, but they treat their fight against the Protodevilin as a myth/legend. When Luca and others attempt to do research to back up what they're watching, there's no recorded information on Fire Bomber before they became employed by the military as Sound Force, there's no records of how they beat the Protodevilin, and even more curiously, there's no records from the entire M7 fleet post the Protodevilin showdown. A point that Ozma and Co assume the M7 fleet perished in their fight. Which just brings up a lot of fascinating questions. We know what happened to them sort of. At least, we know what happened a year out from M7. But why doesn't anyone else know?

Pet theory here - As far as the M7 Fleet is concerned, they dropped off the radar and went rogue/separated from the NUN. Throughout M7, Captain Max and the M7 fleet frequently ignore orders from home. They're also fighting an adversary that's top secret and maybe the NUN wants to keep under wraps. At the end of the show, NUNS orders the M7 fleet to attack the Protodevilin homeworld, an order that would be a suicide mission and one that Max correctly interprets that the NUN is cutting off M7 and offering them up as a sacrifice or to bide time. It's info that would look extremely bad if it got out in the public if this is how the NUN and NUNS treats its expeditionary fleets. So knowing all this post-conflict, what are the odds that Max & Milia decide that they need to break away from the NUN and make the M7 fleet disappear for the fleet's own protection? Lest the NUN attempt to make them disappear?

This also makes you wonder what kinds of insane information laundering/censorship must have been needed to keep all of this under wraps like this?

Something I also never really thought about was... why is Max even the captain of the Macross 7 Fleet to begin with? He's obviously up for the task, but a man of his leadership, skills, and infamy, you'd think NUNS would have better use for him higher up the chain of command. Especially for a legendary hero of Space War I. This isn't like the SDF2 where Global needed people in control of that fleet that he could personally trust the future of humanity to. This is long after Earth and humanity appear to be relatively safe and there's tons of these fleet floating around. It makes you wonder if Max was a troublesome element that the top brass wanted to effectively exile.

Anyhow, M7 famously ends with an endcard that says "To Be Fire!". Dyamite 7 ends with an endcard that says "To Be Bomber!". These weird VHS tapes end with an endcard that says "To Be Be!" - I'm gonna assume the last "Be" is for 美 - which is "Bi" or beauty in Japanese and is Grabil's catchphrase in M7. The film ends with Sheryl, Ranka, and Lovely Bomber doing an impromptu concert on the roof of Ranka's Victorian home, singing Fire Bomber songs, and then the credits cut to a bunch of scenes from Dynamite 7 and the OVAs that both imply that Basara's adventures did continue and also pls buy the blurays for those as well.

The whole thing is really corny and kinda vapid, but there's a lot worse ways to revisit something. I wouldn't recommend FB7 to someone who hasn't seen M7 already; it's best as a nostalgia tour and if you liked M7 to begin with. I guess it could work as a 1.5hr synopsis if you really can't sit through M7 but want to get the gist of it because you like the rest of Macross. But if you're one of those people who likes Macross but hates M7, I have nothing but sadness and pity in my heart for you.
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  #459  
Old 08-07-2017, 08:15 AM
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I mean, his rank sort of gives it away; UN Spacy was pretty much completely toast after the events of SDF:M, and I'd bet anyone with even the slightest bit of talent/skill/experience probably rocketed right up the chain. I'd bet he got on the wrong side of NUNS politics (maybe on details of Zen/Meltrandi integration?), and punting him out the door as the captain of the military half of a colony expedition is a pretty good way to get rid of a troublemaker that you can't fire due to his status as a past hero.
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  #460  
Old 08-07-2017, 09:52 AM
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I dunno, being a captain is nothing to scoff at. At least, when it's not just any old vessel and you're in command of what is essentially a fleet destined to be its own nation. But ya, considering the history of things, he should be running the NUNS, not out on the frontiers. Though one thing I noticed on recent re-watches of SDFM and Plus, is how many old dudes and military brass survived the war and/or were also onboard the SDF1, so it's not like it was only Global in command of an entirely new organization. Seems like a lot of the institutional rot/corruption of the UN/UNS survived the war.

It's pretty shocking in one of the M7 OVAs how, when the M7 fleet comes upon a rogue Meltrandi fleet and call home to ask how to proceed, the NUNS is like "We order you to slaughter all of them ASAP, because we'd really rather not bother with trying to integrate that many of them into society." So it's really not hard to imagine him being forever on the outs with the top brass.
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  #461  
Old 08-07-2017, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
I dunno, being a captain is nothing to scoff at. At least, when it's not just any old vessel and you're in command of what is essentially a fleet destined to be its own nation. But ya, considering the history of things, he should be running the NUNS, not out on the frontiers. Though one thing I noticed on recent re-watches of SDFM and Plus, is how many old dudes and military brass survived the war and/or were also onboard the SDF1, so it's not like it was only Global in command of an entirely new organization. Seems like a lot of the institutional rot/corruption of the UN/UNS survived the war.

It's pretty shocking in one of the M7 OVAs how, when the M7 fleet comes upon a rogue Meltrandi fleet and call home to ask how to proceed, the NUNS is like "We order you to slaughter all of them ASAP, because we'd really rather not bother with trying to integrate that many of them into society." So it's really not hard to imagine him being forever on the outs with the top brass.
I'd go with some combination of:

- Max and Millia are not in favor with the top brass because they're popular celebrities who are also aggressively independent and insubordinate
- Max and Millia are not especially interested in running the galaxy
- Max and Millia are more or less capable of picking their jobs
- Max and Millia are kind of interested in what happened to Minmay, Hikaru, and Hyase
- Max and Millia are actively looking for distractions to help them avoid dealing with their deteriorating family life

My fanon is that Max jumped on the M7 Captain's hat the instant it was offered (due to the above factors), and Millia chose to resign rather than report to him, then ran for City 7 mayor because she was bored.
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  #462  
Old 08-07-2017, 11:53 AM
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I literally can't think of worse Macross news that doesn't have the words "Harmony Gold" in it. I'm increasingly of the mind that compilation films are a blight on the franchise. There's so many interesting stories and unexplored plot threads - especially from Delta - that demand to be explored... and instead we get more rehashing. Gross. Speaking of unnecessary compilation films...
AFAIK, the new series is still happening, and may or may not continue the arc from Delta. I'm not opposed to complitation films - I enjoyed the Frontier movies a lot more than the television series - and Delta's second cour especially lost a lot of momentum, and I don't think it really stuck the landing. I'm not sure it would be done a disservice by tightning it up and adding more spectacle.
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  #463  
Old 08-09-2017, 06:38 PM
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If this was Gundam where there's constantly at least 2 or 3 different things in production, I wouldn't care about compilation films either. Unfortunately, this is Macross where we only get something new every 2-7 years. So when they blow their wad on a compilation film, that's time and resources they're not spending on making something new that actually adds to the lore and franchise. So when they spend time on mulligans, it's really frustrating to me. Why couldn't you have just done things right the first time? If the ending to your TV show was shit, don't redo it, make a sequel/new ending like Tiger & Bunny did. It's especially frustrating when showing events after the dramatic climax is historically a strength of Macross too. The 9 or so episodes post-Space War I in the original show, and Dynamite 7 are both amazing stuff. If a different team is taking care of a compilation film and there's still a new show in the works, that would be great. But Macross as a franchise hasn't been that ambitious since the days of Plus/7 so I don't have a lot of hope.

I've started rewatching Delta, and am immediately reminded of all of Delta's strengths and weaknesses. Hayate is easily the most boring protagonist in the franchise. Even Shin had more going for him. But it's so nice that Delta's setting isn't trapped in a single locale. It'll also be nice to rewatch the show on BD, because the Japanese BDs come with an official English sub track. So it'll be nice to watch the show sans dank memes and unnecessary cursing endemic to the fansubber that originally did the show.
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  #464  
Old 08-10-2017, 09:34 PM
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Has it actually been stated that the Delta movie is a compilation? I mean, yeah, it probably is, but all I've seen is a splash page saying "please stay tuned for any actual information on this movie which is a thing that will exist at some point".

I mean, something that tightens up the ending bits *and* leads into more stuff seems plausible and not a bad thing, but you're right that hoping for more than one Macross work every few years does seem like a stretch.

Meanwhile though, thanks for that FB7 summary above. I've watched/skimmed through it, but my copy didn't have subs so I didn't know what the Frontier crew's reactions were. At the time I was mostly just excited because hot damn, a few new Fire Bomber song mixes. But that whole off-the-history-books angle is intriguing. The fanon angles Wist and Egar laid out seem pretty solid though.
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  #465  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:49 AM
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All there really has been is this:



Which says at the top "Macross Delta Movie Version" so it's very much going to be a compilation film (or at the very least, going over the same events). It's also a big tell that Hayate's VF-31J has its original paint job instead of the paint job it gets at the end which is a synthesis of his and Messer's.

It's funny Kirin you mention new Fire Bomber songs, because - at least during the body of the film - there isn't any. A point that Ozma takes note of at the end of watching their M7 marathon, because it reinforces his beliefs about Fire Bomber. There might have been a new version of songs during the credits, and Ranka & Sheryl doing FB cover songs are new, but that's really it.
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  #466  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:35 PM
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I think the only new FB song on FB7 is Virgin Story, the other is just the Sheryl/Ranka medley of FB stuff.
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  #467  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:45 PM
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Yeah, I just meant both the medley/cover and Virgin Story. It's not a lot but I mean, hey, I'll take any new M7/FB material I can get!
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  #468  
Old 08-31-2017, 07:23 PM
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What are the most sequential steps a gerwalk has taken on screen?
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  #469  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:29 AM
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What are the most sequential steps a gerwalk has taken on screen?
I would guess "no more than three", though I also wouldn't be surprised if the answer was zero. However, I think Hikaru's gerwalk takes at least a few steps during one of the poorly animated midseason SDF Macross episodes.

PS:

I'm four episodes in, and I think Macross 7 may be one of the best anime of the '90s, if not the best. The only thing that's really disappointing is the battle animation, but part of me suspects that was a thematic choice.
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  #470  
Old 09-01-2017, 04:24 PM
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I'm four episodes in, and I think Macross 7 may be one of the best anime of the '90s, if not the best. The only thing that's really disappointing is the battle animation, but part of me suspects that was a thematic choice.
Best is stretching it a bit for me, but it's definitely top 10 of the 90s, maybe top 5. M7 is incredible. Every time I watch it, my opinions of it improve more and more as time passes. I can't even fathom being such a sad person that you can't find joy in its absurd shenanigans. It's like hating G Gundam.

I actually love the battles too. Like, you're not supposed to think dudes murdering each other in space is cool in Macross 7. That's not the rad stuff going on. The real rad stuff is Nekki Basara flying around like a madman singing at all the problems of the galaxy to make them go away. Because it IS rad. It's also important to note that just like the first SDF Macross, the enemy is mostly just playing around and experimenting with the Macross 7 Fleet; if they wanted to it would be childs play to eradicate them, so the battles aren't meant to be crazy early on. M7's battles are also fairly reliant upon recycling frames/scenes, and that's just a thing for the first cour or so as the show finds its footing. But I don't even care! Because I could watch the VF-19 and VF-17's crazy-awesome and detailed transformation sequence over and over again. I miss that aspect of anime, where they'd recycle a crazy detailed transformation sequence in order to get the audience hyped up. You used to see that all the time in all kinds of shows, and now it's something that only magical girl shows do anymore. It's a bummer.

Last edited by WisteriaHysteria; 09-01-2017 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Top 10 90s anime: Patlabor, Macross Plus, Cowboy Bebop, Macross 7, Turn-A Gundam, G Gundam, Porco Rosso, Ranma 1/2, Escaflowne, Mononoke-hime. Slam Dunk, NGE, GTO, and 3x3 Eyes are honorable mentions.
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  #471  
Old 09-01-2017, 04:59 PM
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Best is stretching it a bit for me, but it's definitely top 10 of the 90s, maybe top 5. M7 is incredible. Every time I watch it, my opinions of it improve more and more as time passes. I can't even fathom being such a sad person that you can't find joy in its absurd shenanigans. It's like hating G Gundam.
M7's most impressive accomplishment is the combination of things it achieves. It manages to maintain strong arc stories and characterization over 50 episodes without ever falling back to intolerably bad animation or stock filler storylines.
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  #472  
Old 09-07-2017, 01:03 PM
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Yeah, the slowest bits are front-loaded, and they're setting things up anyway. Once you start ramping up to the midpoint, it's go-go good craziness all the time. One of these days I need to re-watch with the bluray remaster one way or another.


As for Gerwalks walking, yeah, I can't remember where that might be animated, but I've always loved this box art illustration:



I feel like there's something similar with Max and Milia's VF-1Js, but I can't find it right now.
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  #473  
Old 09-07-2017, 08:12 PM
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I've come to the conclusion this is a thing I should love but have no idea where to even fucking begin. Help?
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  #474  
Old 09-07-2017, 08:45 PM
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I'd try production order. If you can't countenance some really rough spots of animation, maybe jump to Do You Remember Love?
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  #475  
Old 09-07-2017, 08:56 PM
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I have never watched original Macross, I have watched Do You Remember Love, despite not using reconstituted animation it still felt like it kind of expected you to already understand the story beats it was summarizing so maybe bear that in mind should you go that route.
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  #476  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:05 PM
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I'd try production order. If you can't countenance some really rough spots of animation, maybe jump to Do You Remember Love?
From what I understand this is harder to figure out than it should be, could you give me the idiots guide? Like I'm looking at Wikipedia and there are a whole lot of retellings and side stories and I have no idea what the context is. I'm looking for maximum dumb idol shit but also maximum giant robot if that changes anything, because that's why I've come to the conclusion I should love this; because it combines those things very well.
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  #477  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:10 PM
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SDF: M
M7 / Macross Plus
Macross Zero
Macross Frontier
Macross Delta

Is the production order; the TV series (except for Plus/Zero) are the main 'forks' of each show.
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  #478  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:12 PM
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Production order is the most sensible, especially since the Macross timeline is (almost) entirely linear.

Also, SDF is really good. The animation is pretty rough, but otherwise it holds up remarkably well.
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  #479  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:13 PM
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I started with production order recently and am currently watching Macross 7 (left Macross II for later).

I don't think either the original series or Do You Remember Love would be as strong without the other serving as a complement and contrast, so ideally you'd experience them both. There are characters I'd form totally opposite impressions of, depending on which depiction of them I was dealing with at the time. The "best" version of Super Dimension Fortress Macross to me is some theoretical amalgam of both that doesn't actually exist, and that's fascinating.
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  #480  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyblue View Post
SDF: M
M7 / Macross Plus
Macross Zero
Macross Frontier
Macross Delta

Is the production order; the TV series (except for Plus/Zero) are the main 'forks' of each show.
See I never would have figured this out on my own, thank you so much!
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