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  #91  
Old 03-13-2018, 07:30 AM
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Reitman?
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  #92  
Old 03-13-2018, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jpfriction View Post
Guys is it at all possible that Raimi needed a plausible way for Venkman to take a break from distracting Dana long enough to report back to home base and went with the ole 'sedated her' mainstay and didn't give a ton of thought to how that would read in 2018 when we've figured out that men are horrible?
This. It's a movie shortcut. It's shorthand for ambiguous sedation. 300ccs of thorazine is enough to kill a person, many times over. He also doesn't force himself on Dana when she is possessed by Zuul, even though she asks for it. He's a sex predator...but with scruples! Or whatever.

Pretty In Pink Annie Potts > Ghostbusters Annie Potts, btw.
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  #93  
Old 03-13-2018, 07:37 AM
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Or a sex predator who realizes that sleeping with a demonic entity will not end well?
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  #94  
Old 03-13-2018, 07:40 AM
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My take is, why wouldn't someone whose job involves dealing with metaphysical terrors beyond human comprehension--and a potentially high number of false positives and hallucinations--want to carry a high-powered antipsychotic/sedative around, even in their off time?
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  #95  
Old 03-13-2018, 07:45 AM
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Having the stuff doesn't strike me as the problem by itself, it's having the stuff combined with the creepy jokes and innuendo and predatory behavior people have a problem with

for my part, I haven't seen GB in years, but I'm more than willing to believe a 1980s comedy has some sexual politics issues, doesn't seem like something to get worked up about
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  #96  
Old 03-13-2018, 07:47 AM
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Or a sex predator who realizes that sleeping with a demonic entity will not end well?
The film Species seems to imply that no, they never stop to consider this.
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  #97  
Old 03-13-2018, 07:49 AM
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What about that scene where a ghost unzips Stantz's pants?
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  #98  
Old 03-13-2018, 07:57 AM
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Wasn't that a dream sequence?
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  #99  
Old 03-13-2018, 08:01 AM
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I was obsessed with Ghostbusters as a kid. Watching it as an adult was a pretty eye opening experience. Definitely thought Venkman was way creepier than I had remembered (especially in GB2). I didn't think that the thorazine scene was supposed to be saying that he was a sexual predator and that it was cool, but it stuck out as weird. But, what struck me the most is that the EPA were the bad guys. That's really bizarre in retrospect.

Even though there are some things about the movie that I'm not a fan of, it's still a great comedy and I'd definitely watch it again. Part of that is nostalgia, but also it's just a weird, funny movie. It's ok to like something even if you recognize problems with some aspects of it.
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  #100  
Old 03-13-2018, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpfriction View Post
Guys is it at all possible that Raimi needed a plausible way for Venkman to take a break from distracting Dana long enough to report back to home base and went with the ole 'sedated her' mainstay and didn't give a ton of thought to how that would read in 2018 when we've figured out that men are horrible?
This gets back to the earlier discussion. Ramis wrote Venkman as a sleaze using one schema (a dude who came up writing humor for men in magazines for men, including ones with big photos of naked tits in them,) but viewed from a different perspective Venkman crosses a line from 'pathetic' to 'dangerous'.

The thorazine bit should raise an eyebrow. In 1984 it was "why is a jumped-up exterminator carrying tranquilizers". In 2018 we strike "tranquilizers" and add "a fucking date rape drug." What matters is the lens/ethic that's applied.

There's a reflexive defensiveness surfacing here (in general, jpfriction, I'm not singling you out.) Art, especially mass art, should be consciously engaged from different perspectives. These are the movies that taught our generation how to think (Lord have mercy) and that alone makes them worthy of re-examination. It's also a funny movie in a genre I enjoy, that also makes it worthy of re-examination.

This isn't the Cultural Revolution. No one is being dragged into the street for public self-struggle with a PPSh in the small of their back. Nothing is being stamped "un-woke" and tossed on the dustbin of history.
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  #101  
Old 03-13-2018, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Adrenaline View Post
Reitman?
Nope definitely meant notable Ghostbusters director Sam Raimi.

(I meant Ramis and/or Aykroyd. Presumably the folks who wrote the scene in question.)
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  #102  
Old 03-13-2018, 08:25 AM
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The film Species seems to imply that no, they never stop to consider this.
Well that one guy has second thoughts when species lady admits she's trying to get pregnant.
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  #103  
Old 03-13-2018, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
This gets back to the earlier discussion. Ramis wrote Venkman as a sleaze using one schema (a dude who came up writing humor for men in magazines for men, including ones with big photos of naked tits in them,) but viewed from a different perspective Venkman crosses a line from 'pathetic' to 'dangerous'.

The thorazine bit should raise an eyebrow. In 1984 it was "why is a jumped-up exterminator carrying tranquilizers". In 2018 we strike "tranquilizers" and add "a fucking date rape drug." What matters is the lens/ethic that's applied.

There's a reflexive defensiveness surfacing here (in general, jpfriction, I'm not singling you out.) Art, especially mass art, should be consciously engaged from different perspectives. These are the movies that taught our generation how to think (Lord have mercy) and that alone makes them worthy of re-examination. It's also a funny movie in a genre I enjoy, that also makes it worthy of re-examination.

This isn't the Cultural Revolution. No one is being dragged into the street for public self-struggle with a PPSh in the small of their back. Nothing is being stamped "un-woke" and tossed on the dustbin of history.
I agree with the need to approach art from different perspectives and repeatedly through time. I just want to note that people in the 70s and 80s already knew thorazine as a rape drug. I imagine Ramis knew exactly what he was doing at the time. I'd also remind you that it wasn't that long ago that rape jokes in pop culture were funny. Not that long ago transphobia jokes were funny too. Culture marches on.
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  #104  
Old 03-13-2018, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
But, what struck me the most is that the EPA were the bad guys. That's really bizarre in retrospect.
I think in the era of Reagan, a government oversight/regulation department being cast as the bad guys is hardly surprising.

The movie has an overt blue-collar bent and is highly suspicious of both government and educational institutions. The first three GBs, though doctors all, are unsatisfied and ineffective being involved in higher learning. When they do have a breakthrough, their very first instincts are to start a small business to capitalize on their niche.

Ultimately, the GBs, sleazebags all, find their redemption through hard, physical, some might say menial work. Anyone that complicates or slows down that process is necessarily the antagonist.
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  #105  
Old 03-13-2018, 09:04 AM
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I see it more that the petty and personal Walter Peck, rather than the EPA as a whole, is the villain.
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  #106  
Old 03-13-2018, 09:25 AM
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I see it more that the petty and personal Walter Peck, rather than the EPA as a whole, is the villain.
Yeah, I feel like if the organization were meant to be the villain it would be represented by something more faceless and impersonal, as opposed to William Atherton, the most personally dislikable character actor of his era.
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  #107  
Old 03-13-2018, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Falselogic View Post
I agree with the need to approach art from different perspectives and repeatedly through time. I just want to note that people in the 70s and 80s already knew thorazine as a rape drug.
That's a new one on me - I mostly know of it from reading Kesey.
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  #108  
Old 03-13-2018, 10:13 AM
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That's a new one on me - I mostly know of it from listening to the Ramones.
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  #109  
Old 03-13-2018, 11:34 AM
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I know it's a date rape drug because people tell me about it when discussing Ghostbusters
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  #110  
Old 03-13-2018, 11:53 AM
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I've flicked through the movie now so if I may; first of all I do want to apologise for the unpleasantness over the page. Was not what I wanted at all. Mainly, I don't want it to be in question that I would be willfully undermining sexual assault/rape or offering any sort of excuses or apologies for it. I was sure that was apparent in what I said but I fucked up and I apologise. I never, ever want to minimise or brush aside sexual abuse/assault/rape and I'm ultimately glad to be told it could be seen that way so I can correct myself and think harder about what I say in future.

My objection was to the comments made subsequently, which I thought were beyond the pale and really over the line of acceptability by my personal standards - and apparently the code of conduct's as well. I appreciate the action taken though obviously it's a shame; I don't have any ill will towards Estragon at all and I'm sorry any of it happened. Zaidyer, I'm sorry again for what happened in your thread. Gaer - truly, it wasn't my aim to ridicule or undermine your or anyone's take on the movie.

Anyway, the movie - having looked over the scenes in question, I can absolutely see Venkman is a scumbag. I wouldn't have questioned this anyway; I think, as has been discussed, in the universe the movie takes place in, within the framework of it as a comedy, it minimises the impact of it for me, but only in that vacuum. Personally I was most surprised by the sequence with possessed Dana - not the thorazine thing (which in my opinion is tossed out in a way that it's tough for me to unambiguously see it as an intentional rape joke, though obviously given the history/cultural significance of the drug as told to me in this thread, I can absolutely understand that reading), but the sequence where he tells her he's going to leave and kisses Dana's hand and neck. That was... yecch. Really slimey. A year ago, to my discredit, I doubt I'd have batted an eyelid. Naturally, in real life, this sort of deception, this kind of sexism, PUA shit is utterly grotesque. I don't think that really needs to be said. It's totally valid to dislike the movie, be grossed out, be angry, whatever. For me, despite these problematic sequences I find the character of Venkman generally enjoyable to watch.
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  #111  
Old 03-13-2018, 12:18 PM
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You and estragon are both good people, madhair. Things just got heated and I hope there's no ill will between you two when he comes back. We're all in this soup together.
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  #112  
Old 03-13-2018, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThornGhost View Post
The movie has an overt blue-collar bent and is highly suspicious of both government and educational institutions. The first three GBs, though doctors all, are unsatisfied and ineffective being involved in higher learning. When they do have a breakthrough, their very first instincts are to start a small business to capitalize on their niche.
Isn't it (currently) accepted that, from that angle, Ghostbusters is deeply Libertarian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Raider Dr. Jones View Post
Yeah, I feel like if the organization were meant to be the villain it would be represented by something more faceless and impersonal, as opposed to William Atherton, the most personally dislikable character actor of his era.
Pretty much! Then again, I don't know if he was already disliked or if he only "earned" that after his Walter Peck and his Dick Thornberg in Die Hard

But yeah, replace Peck's chip from his shoulder, and his unscrupulous methods, and he's actually right. The GBs are running a highly illegal operation involving nuclear-powered equipment in the middle of a densely populated area, they do deal with secretions and vapors of unknown origin which can be hazardous to health and property, they are charging clients steep prices without any BBB oversight or regulation, so we have it on their word that they're not overcharging for their services. Heck, even the Ecto-1's siren can toss an additional "public disturbance" charge, if there isn't already a law against using public address systems that can be mistaken for police and emergency vehicles.
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  #113  
Old 03-13-2018, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
That's a new one on me - I mostly know of it from reading Kesey.
Doing more research and digging in to half remembered things. What was known by the 60s was the condition of "thorazine shuffle." Which was basically the practice of drugging mental health patients, old folks in homes, and prisoners into near-catatonic states by the administration of the drug. There are known cases where people in said states were raped. Though I couldn't find any going back that far. Though you can find some surprising current ones using it.

I might be confusing thorazine and GBH. Both were discovered by the same person, both can help in the treatment of mental illnesses, and both can leave you susceptible or open to sexual assault.

I might have been doing some projection when I said it was an intentional rape joke. Ramis would know of its knockout effects as would the audience. The darker history maybe not so much.
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  #114  
Old 03-13-2018, 01:18 PM
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Apart from Ghostbusters, the only reference to Thorazine I've ever encountered was one of the "downers" in the bag of "uppers, downers, screamers, laughers" that Dr. Gonzo and his attorney took with them on their famous drug trip through Vegas. Reference is at roughly 20s in.

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  #115  
Old 03-13-2018, 05:14 PM
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I don't remember the first time I heard the term "thorazine" but my most recent, repeated exposure to it is in the Smashing Pumpkins song "Pale Horse", which seems to have subtle references to the drug being used as a sedative in a clinical environment. ("Pale horse" being a reference to death, of course, whether Corgan intended this or not.)

Another movie that strikes me as being funny, crude, crass, a classic 80s comedy, and also deeply problematic is Bachelor Party, with Tom Hanks. And probably Policy Academy but I haven't seen that in a long-ass time.

Ah. The 80s.
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  #116  
Old 03-13-2018, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by four-so View Post
I don't remember the first time I heard the term "thorazine" but my most recent, repeated exposure to it is in the Smashing Pumpkins song "Pale Horse", which seems to have subtle references to the drug being used as a sedative in a clinical environment. ("Pale horse" being a reference to death, of course, whether Corgan intended this or not.)

Another movie that strikes me as being funny, crude, crass, a classic 80s comedy, and also deeply problematic is Bachelor Party, with Tom Hanks. And probably Policy Academy but I haven't seen that in a long-ass time.

Ah. The 80s.
Revenge of the Nerds is the likely the poster child for “sexual assault, lol” if we are extending our criticism to terrible movies.
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  #117  
Old 03-14-2018, 12:21 AM
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Revenge of the Nerds is a movie I briefly became obsessed with a few weeks ago, such is its madness. It's this generally good natured movie, a little crude but quite sweet. Then THAT happens and you're just screaming at the TV.
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  #118  
Old 03-15-2018, 06:45 PM
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And probably Policy Academy but I haven't seen that in a long-ass time.
The entire Police Academy franchise consists of a few scenes of Michael Winslow making funny sounds, a few scenes of Bobcat Goldthwait making funny sounds, a few scenes to establish a basic narrative structure, and then just... straight up naked bigotry in every possible form.

Like, a central pillar of the whole thing is that the characters are all people who under normal circumstances would be immediately turned away from receiving police training for their obvious flaws, and while that's all well and good for the "wacky" protagonist, other characters obvious disqualifications include being a woman, and being Japanese.

And don't get me started on the three scenes in the first movie alone where people are tricked into entering a leather bar.
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  #119  
Old 03-16-2018, 04:35 AM
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Yeahhhhhh, those scenes are extremely bad.
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  #120  
Old 03-16-2018, 04:40 AM
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To be fair, so are all of the other scenes.
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