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  #1  
Old 08-08-2017, 12:12 PM
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Default First-person dungeon crawling and you

Are we in a first-person dungeon crawler renaissance? A golden age? It's hard to answer that definitively, but Etrian Odyssey, Elminage, Stranger of Sword City, and the recently-released Grimoire suggest that to be the case.

Let's not kid ourselves: this is a niche genre, and it probably always will be. If you're knee-deep in the genre, it can be difficult to understand outsider viewpoints such as "I can't see my party members" and "I don't like the grid-based movement."

Dungeon crawlers tend to fall somewhere on the dungeon-to-combat spectrum:

On one extreme, we have the older games: Wizardry, Ultima, Bard's Tale, and their offshoots. These games are very unforgiving, but it's not because of the combat: it's because you can easily get completely and utterly lost in a dungeon with no easy way out. Combat exists, but it's not the focus, and there are very few traditional bosses. For example, Bard's Tale II eventually gives you an item that lets you run from every encounter in the game. You still have to kill the last boss, but that battle is rigged in your favor. On the other hand, it's possible to put yourself into an unwinnable situation if you phase through a wall and then kill your caster. (The fact that "phase through a wall" is not only a spell you can cast but one you need to cast -- at least in the first game -- is some indication of how these dungeons are designed.)

On the other extreme, we have most modern dungeon crawlers. Even the ones that are most directly inspired by Wizardry, like the Elminage series, give you a way to see an autogenerated map, and many of them have a way to warp out of the dungeon. Even ignoring the automapping and warp-back-to-town, their dungeons tend to be less deadly, and the danger comes from the combat instead of the possibility of becoming irretrievably lost.

I love me some FPDC action. I am making my own at an agonizingly slow pace. If Grimoire is any indication, you can expect a 2037 release. I didn't create this thread to plug it, but I'm happy to discuss if there's interest.

So! Dungeon crawlers: what is the deal?
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:15 PM
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My name is JBear, and I approve of this thread.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:21 PM
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The hook of EO for me has always been the map-making and not so much the combat or party composition/management.

So where should I look for map-making bliss? The older games?
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:30 PM
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I'm a fan of the genre. In recent years I've seen the genre morph a bit into what some are calling DRPG. (Meaning an RPG that takes completely within a first person dungeon(s).) The Vita is rife with DRPGs, I own quite a few for the platform. If one is into portable gaming, it's the hot ticket. Examples include Dungeon Travelers 2, Moe Chronicles, Demon Gaze, MeiQ: Labyrinth of Death, and many many more.

That said DRPGs don't necessarily capture the essence of the classic dungeon crawler. But even in that vein we've seen a bit of a renaissance. I guess the most well known of late would be Etrian Odyssey and Legend of Grimrock. Both personifying the essence of Eastern or Western influence in the same basic framework. However I'm not sure either of those franchises really captures the brutality of the original Wizardry games. (Maybe The Dark Spire does.)

One of the best dungeon crawlers I've played recently would be 7 Mages. It's available on PC and mobile:

http://www.7mages.net/en

I agree that although this subgenre is quite healthy with a constant stream of releases, it's not likely to ever become mainstream. I mean if it hasn't become mainstream in 42 some odd years yet...
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted View Post
The hook of EO for me has always been the map-making and not so much the combat or party composition/management.

So where should I look for map-making bliss? The older games?
I can't think of a game that doesn't at least allow you to turn off the minimap. In theory, you could get your mapmaking fix from any of them.

If you want to remove the temptation, though, Elminage is a modern series that gives you limited access to mapping (through spells or consumables). The Bard's Tale series is great for challenging mapping, since it gives you no automapping and MP-limited access to a compass and your location -- very useful tools in a game with unmarked spinners/teleports and graphics that do not indicate your facing. If you are more interested in traversing a dungeon than dealing with its inhabitants, you can import a decently-leveled party; otherwise, it can be a slog getting a party off the ground.

Just be aware that the old school of dungeon crawlers is happy to include things like tiles that drain your health over time when you stand on them with no indication other than the HP display itself.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:32 PM
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I love dungeon crawlers a whole lot. Phantasy Star for SMS was one of the first video games I ever owned, and I've loved first-person dungeon crawling ever since, from wireframe dungeons on C64 through modern Steam games. We're enjoying a surge of new releases right now, but even in the lean years I've been getting steady mileage out of rediscovering older dungeon crawlers that I'd missed. I've played through both Arcana for SNES and Shining in the Darkness for Genesis in recent years and loved both. I just can't seem to get enough of this genre, and I'm not even a big fan of mapping or grid paper. There's just something that feels... pure about it. It's like a distillation of what I like about RPGs or something. And don't even get me started on how much I love rolling characters and building parties.

Also, just to quote myself from another thread, in response to the criticism that Elminage looks dull and unpolished next to EO:
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Originally Posted by JBear View Post
This is the second time I've seen this sentiment directed towards a dungeon crawler recently. There are dungeon crawlers other than Etrian Odyssey, and they're often good! Stranger of Sword City was one of my favourite games of last year, and I'm looking forward to Elminage Gothic! (On my PC, though, because I hate portable gaming.)

Here's the thing: EO is really, really polished. Most others developers in this essentially dead genre don't have that kind of money to throw at their games, so asking that of them is holding them to an impossible standard. However, this is still a design space that other people have been innovating in as of late, and I hate to see those good ideas get ignored because there's no pretty drawings of kids in armour. Please give other dungeon crawlers a chance!
ETA:
Ooo, Grimrock is a good catch. I love both Grimrock games, but tend not to mentally bin them as dungeons crawlers even though they very much are. I'd love some more new stuff in this/Dungeon Master vein.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:33 PM
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I really need to remember to pick up The Bard's Tale. It's of no relation to the old games (more a satire of cRPGs), but the iOS/Android version comes with all three of the old FPRPGs, and it's only $3. That's a frickin' bargain right there.

Anyway, FPRPGs are a genre I've always been interested in, though I rarely complete them.

Last edited by MetManMas; 08-08-2017 at 03:05 PM.
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  #8  
Old 08-08-2017, 12:50 PM
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Wizardry I is the first game I have any memories of playing, and I loved EO so much that I wrote an essay about it to win a copy of the sequel, so yeah, this genre is close to my heart.

I've drifted away a bit in recent years as part of my annoyances with RPGs as a whole, but can still be enticed if the right game comes along, so I'll definitely be watching this thread.

On the mention of Grimrock, yeah, I definitely consider those a separate but related genre, taking after Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder rather than Wizardry and Might & Magic. They're superficially similar, but take place in real time, which leads to a very different feeling and combat that is largely about moving around to avoid attacks.

For other recent games worth checking out, I highly recommend Might & Magic X: Legacy (and if you want to check out a classic, you can't go wrong with World of Xeen). And I haven't had a chance to play much yet, but Starcrawlers is pretty enjoyable so far.



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Old 08-08-2017, 01:32 PM
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I picked up Starcrawlers during the last Steam sale. It and Elminage Gothic are jockeying for the top spot in my play queue.
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Old 08-08-2017, 02:17 PM
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I grew up with Shining in the Darkness and it still is my favorite dungeon crawler.

The sequel Shining The Holy Ark was more of a disappointment, though. Mainly because of the lack of encounter variety (and I really don't like the graphics either, or the fact that you have to search every single wall just to not miss a secret fairy thingy).

I really liked the japanese Wizardry games (including the remake of 1-3 for SNES) and Elminage Gothic. Might&Magic is really good too. Grimrock is beautiful, but I really don't like the real time aspect.
Starcrawlers was ok-ish but didn't really give me much of a exploration feeling. It's more roguelite than dungeon crawler.

Generally, unlimited automap that is always visible really ruins the genre for me. I do need instant escape spells and some way to open an auto-map but it should be limited somehow, so there's some challenge in memorizing the dungeon.

Wish there were more dungeon crawlers, because I think I have already played all that are available DRM-free for non-handhelds in English.
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  #11  
Old 08-08-2017, 02:34 PM
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The only first-person dungeon crawlers I remember played are Wizardry V on SNES and Legend of Grimrock on PC, and I wasn't too big on either one.

I do have an unapologetic love of Shadowgate, Uninvited, Deja Vu, and large parts of Tombs & Treasure but those seem to be a different beast than what we're describing here. (First-person escape room?)
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Old 08-08-2017, 04:00 PM
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I usually don't finish these, but I have a lot of fun with them. I might try to play through Eliminage Original again when it hits 3DS. Really liked the summoned monster mechanics for that game. Wanna pick up the rerelease of Stranger of Sword City, too. I'm still technically nursing a game of Wizardry 6, slowly slogging through the brutal combat on the mountain and environs.

I'm not a big fan of Etrian Odyssey's party-synergy focus, but it DID carve the way for the resurgence we're experiencing. And they're fairly polished games.

If you count the SNES SMT games as easy dungeon crawlers instead of hard JRPGs, my completion count goes up a fair bit.

I think the biggest problem with most dungeon crawlers is that the EXP curve could serve to be a bit more forgiving. This definitely stands out in Wizardry 6, and I always felt a bit behind the curve in Stranger. I suppose they should get credit for being one of the few RPG types that get harder rather than easier as time goes on.


Star Crawlers is on The List once it stops being early access.


PS: If anyone plans on doing some manual mapping of just about anything, here's my obligatory plug for Grid Cartographer. It's paid software, but it's proven a faithful companion fo Wizardry, Phantasy Star 1, Dragon Quest 1, and a handful of others. Being able to automatically place matching stairs on lower and higher floors, and getting to use the scroll wheel to flip between floors does wonders for visualizing a dungeon in three-dimensional space.

Last edited by LancerECNM; 08-08-2017 at 04:16 PM.
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  #13  
Old 08-08-2017, 04:27 PM
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Oooh, StarCrawlers looks neat.

I think a big problem for me, with dungeon crawlers like these, is that I like to build my own weird-ass party and go into the dungeon, and figure out how to use the toolbox I brought to handle the situation I am faced with. I absolutely detest grinding, or being forced to rework my entire build because I didn't predict the boss having moves to counter every single strategy except one. Opacity is, of course, a big focus for these sorts of games, but I find the most interesting part of the game to be exploring the dungeon/wilderness/whatever and figuring out how to safely navigate it, and coming up with clever strategies to fight everything, but that is a RAZOR-THIN line to balance on.
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Old 08-08-2017, 04:30 PM
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Yeah, that was a big problem with Persona Q - either you're using Naoto or you're getting your face smashed into the ground by random encounters. Dungeon crawlers could stand a little more Final Fantasy / Dragon Quest DNA in 'em.
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Old 08-08-2017, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LancerECNM View Post
Star Crawlers is on The List once it stops being early access.
Sooo... two months ago?
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Old 08-08-2017, 07:12 PM
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I remember trying an Elminage game on the...PSP? I think, some time ago. It had a pretty bad translation, but how does Elminage Gothic on PC fare for text/translation?
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Old 08-08-2017, 07:14 PM
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well hot dang
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalir View Post
Oooh, StarCrawlers looks neat.

I think a big problem for me, with dungeon crawlers like these, is that I like to build my own weird-ass party and go into the dungeon, and figure out how to use the toolbox I brought to handle the situation I am faced with. I absolutely detest grinding, or being forced to rework my entire build because I didn't predict the boss having moves to counter every single strategy except one. Opacity is, of course, a big focus for these sorts of games, but I find the most interesting part of the game to be exploring the dungeon/wilderness/whatever and figuring out how to safely navigate it, and coming up with clever strategies to fight everything, but that is a RAZOR-THIN line to balance on.
That's why Shining in the Darkness is so great to get into the genre. No way to mess up your build.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:53 AM
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My only experience with 'old school' dungeon crawlers was with The Dark Spire on the DS, which takes inspiration from D&D.

It was resolutely focused on making things difficult for the player (eg. difficult or resource-intensive enemies didn't necessary give a commensurate level of experience) and had a lot of opacity in its systems.

I initially found this refreshing (given my RPG history) but eventually the fact that the damage you can be quite variable (the damage is based dice rolls) meant that the game lost my interest once I left the first level of the Spire.

That being said, I can feel my interest in The Dark Spire being piqued again after writing this.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:53 AM
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Dang, mine too.

But Eliminage is out tomorrow and I feel somewhat confident that the one is more user friendly than the other. If only by default.
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rya View Post
That's why Shining in the Darkness is so great to get into the genre. No way to mess up your build.
Counterpoint: Shining in the Darkness is a very slow game.
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LancerECNM View Post
I usually don't finish these, but I have a lot of fun with them.
I have a 100% finish rate on my dungeon crawlers, I think, with the notable exception of the EO post-game stratums, where I just entirely run out of steam. Every time I'm like "all right, this time I'm going to do it!" and then I take two steps into the post-game, go "meh" and shut off my DS. I loved the post-game in Stranger of Sword City, though! One of only 4 games in my Steam list with 100% achievement completion.

Speaking of EO, this thread inspired me to finally start up EO3, except I can't find my copy. :_( I know that I bought it when it was knew and then promptly tossed it on a shelf, and that I have a still shrink-wrapped copy of it somewhere, but I spent two hours tossing my storeroom and came up empty. So now I need to decide if I'm willing to shell out money to buy the same game twice or if I should just jump straight to 4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalir View Post
I think a big problem for me, with dungeon crawlers like these, is that I like to build my own weird-ass party and go into the dungeon, and figure out how to use the toolbox I brought to handle the situation I am faced with. I absolutely detest grinding, or being forced to rework my entire build because I didn't predict the boss having moves to counter every single strategy except one. Opacity is, of course, a big focus for these sorts of games, but I find the most interesting part of the game to be exploring the dungeon/wilderness/whatever and figuring out how to safely navigate it, and coming up with clever strategies to fight everything, but that is a RAZOR-THIN line to balance on.
Hrm. I don't actually know that I've run into this? I'd say that everything you've just said is generally true of me (especially hatred of grinding or party/build rejiggering), except that I tend to focus less on building the weird-ass parties that you like and focus more on boring/effective parties, although this is trumped by narrative/thematic considerations (ex: I usually build parties by choosing character portraits first, using those to inspire character concepts, and then making mechanical choices to fit my mental image of those characters, trying to optimize within the constraints I've just built myself). Anyway, that's the way that I typically do things, and I don't recall ever hitting a wall that made me feel as if I'd chosen "wrong" in any game that I can remember. Certainly I've never hit a boss that felt like it only had one correct solution. That sounds really bad!

ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogri View Post
Counterpoint: Shining in the Darkness is a very slow game.
This is especially true early on, but I didn't find it to be too bad? Anything looks slow next to Stranger of Sword City, though. (FYI, for people who find these games too slow, Stranger of Sword City is the dungeon crawler for you. It has a fast-forward button that burns through turns lightning quick.)
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:33 AM
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Any opinions on Orcs & Elves? Sounds like it's a fairly streamlined experience, which I would be up for right now.
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:33 AM
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Would Sword of Hope count as a dungeon crawler?

The first one puts its Macventure roots first and foremost (nonsensically clumsy though they are), but those are toned down greatly in favor of the RPG elements for the sequel. And there's far less puzzle solving than there is maze exploration.

Also how often do you see GB RPGs where each monster gets their own Death animation?
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted View Post
Any opinions on Orcs & Elves? Sounds like it's a fairly streamlined experience, which I would be up for right now.
I finished Orcs & Elves on DS a few years ago. Orcs & Elves is a well designed lightweight turn based dungeon crawler with a retro flair. Playing very fast paced with low difficulty, Orcs & Elves is more concerned with the player having fun than merely surviving. Constant combat is kept interesting through a large variety of unique weapons and tactical potion usage. The plot is quite thin, however the ever pervasive humor goes a long way to keep things interesting. With better graphics and an actual OST, Orcs & Elves may have gained more traction with the masses. Also, it's a brief run, I beat the game in just a little over 5 hours. Those with fond memories of Heretic and Eye Of The Beholder would do well to roll this DS underdog a saving throw.
Quote:
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Would Sword of Hope count as a dungeon crawler?
I would say yes, and Sword of Hope is a great game... EXCEPT for the utterly insane encounter rate. Nothing like getting into a random battle while you're already in a random battle.

An interesting little GB dungeon crawler just received a translation:

http://www.romhacking.net/translations/3154/

---

To be honest with everybody, my all time favorite dungeon crawlers are the King's Field games. Granted they are not turn based, but still they're first person and you crawl plenty of dungeons. I've finished all four King's Fields, plus KF3:Pilot Style. I've also beaten Shadow Tower and Shadow Tower Abyss, and even Eternal Ring. So yeah, you could say I'm a fan of From Software's first person dungeon crawls, especially the King's Field games. They are pure bliss.
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted View Post
Any opinions on Orcs & Elves? Sounds like it's a fairly streamlined experience, which I would be up for right now.
I know Exhuminator played through it not too long ago, so I'll let him chime in on that number. I thought it was pretty cool, but I didn't put a whole lot of time into it.

Ninja'd again!
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  #27  
Old 08-09-2017, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhuminator View Post
Orcs & Elves is a well designed lightweight turn based dungeon crawler with a retro flair. Playing very fast paced with low difficulty, Orcs & Elves is more concerned with the player having fun than merely surviving... Also, it's a brief run....
Sounds like the kind of summertime first-person fling I'm looking for; thanks!
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
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Counterpoint: Shining in the Darkness is a very slow game.
Why is it a counterpoint? And I don't think it's very slow. Well, at least not compared to other dungeon crawlers with turn-based combat system.
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  #29  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:16 AM
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It is not a great way to get into the genre if you play it in its original form. With speedup, it might be tolerable, but even then, it's a slow start. One party member, no magic, l-i-t-t-l-e m-o-n-e-y, and you'll need to do several short dungeon runs before any of that changes.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:23 AM
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Really slow first-person turn-based battles is a big pet peeve of mine, and I remember trying Shining in the Darkness forever ago and being turned off by the speed of combat. It's also why I passed on a Steam FPDC called Paper Sorcerer, and also why I tried to make my own RPG have fast first-person battles.
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