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  #61  
Old 04-22-2017, 05:20 PM
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FEAST FOR CROWS POWER RANKINGS

1. Jaime. Positive character development, black humor, his squires get righteously laid.
2. Brienne. Septon Meribald and Dog are the MVPs of the whole book.
3. Cersei. Accomplishes the neat trick of making her both more and less sympathetic at the same time.
4. Arya. Has this neat undercurrent of rising horror as she gradually sacrifices her identity and her humanity. Ends on a dope cliffhanger.
5. Dorne. Underrated and overhated. Doesn't actually take that much space and when Doran reveals the payoff is pretty cool.
6. Alayne. Littlefinger's plotting and intrigue is fun. Waiting for Robert Arryn to get out of bed and get the fuck down that mountain is as annoying for the reader as it is for Sansa.
7. Samwell. Sam is a good dude but his arc here is a lot of space with not much happening.
8. Iron Islands. These guys should be like the most metal thing in the whole saga and instead they suck. I can't understand it.
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  #62  
Old 04-22-2017, 05:28 PM
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8. Iron Islands. These guys should be like the most metal thing in the whole saga and instead they suck. I can't understand it.
They're marks for themselves. It fits perfectly when you think of it that way.
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  #63  
Old 04-22-2017, 05:33 PM
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They're marks for themselves. It fits perfectly when you think of it that way.
ya know that is a good point.

especially when you consider that IIRC the least shitty of them is Victarion, who is the one who does the most actual mayhem relative to standing around jawing about how hard he is.
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  #64  
Old 04-23-2017, 11:45 AM
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Yeah, the Iron Islands stuff made me somehow wish the books had skipped all that and followed Theon's plot thread from the start the way the TV series did. Which is saying something, 'cause that dude is a tedious and unsympathetic piece of gutter filth.

There are definitely some good threads to be found in Feast, but that book also has an alarmingly high ratio of "Oh god, I don't caaaaare" and a bad habit of kicking over to "Oh go, I don't caaaaare" right as the reader starts to get comfortable with an interesting thread.

Despite these complaints, I'm about 1/4 of the way through book 5 and I continue really been impressed with Martin's ability to leave so much to the reader to piece together. One that stuck out to me: Lord Tully mumbling about "Tansy" as he lay on his deathbed, which seems like it's going to have some plot bearing due to an infidelity... but then comes into focus as his remorse over forcing an abortifacient on Lysa a couple of books later. Threads like that really help motivate me to be an attentive reader, even to scenes that seem insignificant.
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  #65  
Old 04-23-2017, 01:31 PM
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The "Tansy" mention clicking into place was one of the more chilling moments I've had reading those books. Made a lot of things much more sinister.
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  #66  
Old 04-23-2017, 01:35 PM
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ya know that is a good point.

especially when you consider that IIRC the least shitty of them is Victarion, who is the one who does the most actual mayhem relative to standing around jawing about how hard he is.
Even "We Do Not Sow" is layered in its meaning. Yeah, they take what they want and they're dead hard vikings, and on and on. But they don't build for the future, either. And while they were getting drunk and puffing themselves up, they got left the fuck behind. They're a society in decline on the edge of total collapse, and they're willing to throw in with a literal monster to convince themselves that isn't so.
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  #67  
Old 04-23-2017, 02:04 PM
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this kind of goes back to what we were saying about the ASOIAF milieu and its hostility to certain fantasy protagonist types. in Westeros the likes of Elric or Fafhrd or Conan would just be a bunch of useless violent assholes.
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  #68  
Old 04-23-2017, 03:21 PM
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Even "We Do Not Sow" is layered in its meaning. Yeah, they take what they want and they're dead hard vikings, and on and on. But they don't build for the future, either. And while they were getting drunk and puffing themselves up, they got left the fuck behind. They're a society in decline on the edge of total collapse, and they're willing to throw in with a literal monster to convince themselves that isn't so.
Huh, Martin got in on the GOP/Trump metaphor train way early.
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  #69  
Old 04-23-2017, 03:29 PM
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Look at it another way and it's a variation on the conflict between ranchers and farmers that powered old Westerns for ages.
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  #70  
Old 04-23-2017, 07:19 PM
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Even "We Do Not Sow" is layered in its meaning. Yeah, they take what they want and they're dead hard vikings, and on and on. But they don't build for the future, either. And while they were getting drunk and puffing themselves up, they got left the fuck behind. They're a society in decline on the edge of total collapse, and they're willing to throw in with a literal monster to convince themselves that isn't so.
Dang. Dang!!!
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  #71  
Old 04-23-2017, 09:22 PM
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Book 4 nearly killed me, but I survived.
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5. Dorne. Underrated and overhated. Doesn't actually take that much space and when Doran reveals the payoff is pretty cool.
I honestly didn't have a problem with book 4, but had serious issues with 5, and I kinda suspect future readers who aren't stuck waiting half a decade between each book will agree on that. The big complaint everyone seems to have is that there's all these characters we're invested in whose stories are getting put on hold for a whole book, while we bloat things out by adding in even more perspectives to care about.

The counterpoint here is that hey, it really enriches the story to see how the petty infighting we've been focusing on and the resulting effect of it turning most of the country into a nightmarish hellhole contrasts it to its neighbors, and expands on some people's entanglements, and more to the point, fun exciting stuff is going on in Dorne, and with Stannis, and all those fun exciting adventures we're missing out on with Tyrion and Dany? Tyrion literally spends the entire @#$%ing book getting blind drunk and mired in self-pity on a very long boat ride, and Dany just kinda loses all her momentum in losing sight of her goals/getting bogged down in politics. I could totally give that a pass, and we also waste a ton of pages on a serious shaggy dog story in there.

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8. Iron Islands. These guys should be like the most metal thing in the whole saga and instead they suck. I can't understand it.
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I basically hate everyone in that kingdom and their lousy way of life.
Mostly? The rise and fall of Theon Greyjoy is one of the more enjoyable storylines in the series, less so when we check back in to get the exact details of his comeuppance, but the whole "I am going to take over Winterfell because I am a Badass Viking Prince!" accompanied by so many "so yeah, Theon is a @#$%ing idiot by the way" reveals is fun, but arguably that doesn't count as Iron Islands stuff.

Asha is @#$%ing great and she is up there with Farscape's Braca in the field of characters I inexplicably find myself pulling for to come out on top despite them being clearly too minor for that to be at all realistic... to the point that I understand the TV show just straight up drops her? (Or, renames her and seriously changes things around at any rate).

And I kinda like Aeron, just for being a good honest devout leader of a freaky religion, and the impressive ambiguity over whether he can legitimately bring people back from the dead, or he's just the world's leading expert in administering CPR.

The rest of them can go to hell though, yeah.
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  #72  
Old 04-23-2017, 09:36 PM
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I understand the TV show just straight up drops her? (Or, renames her and seriously changes things around at any rate).
I think you've been misled. The name change was just because they thought the Osha/Asha distinction would be hard to follow in a medium where you hear names instead of seeing them spelled out, not because they changed her. I would say the focus on her in the show is roughly equivalent to the amount of attention she gets in the books (which is to say, not that much, but what is there is compelling). There are changes, but they're the typical streamlining that applies to pretty much every character in the show. Due to the reduced number of characters, if anything she's relatively more prominent in the show.

I think the biggest problems with Yara (TV Asha) are tied to what in the show became a multi-season focus on Ramsay Bolton torture porn (because they didn't want to just have Theon vanish for a while like he does in the books). She was pulled into that very thin storyline on a failed rescue mission and came out the worse for it, like pretty much everyone else. This was something that worked very well in the books due to Theon's limited perspective, where you just get flashes and glimpses of something terrible beyond comprehension. Stretched well past the breaking point into a multi-year storyline where you see everything clearly, it completely lost the plot and became torture for torture's sake.

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  #73  
Old 04-23-2017, 10:16 PM
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I haven't sweetened any on the Tyrion/Penny relationship as time's gone on. It's a story maybe worth telling, but in a book that's creaking at the seams already it feels self-indulgent.

I am more forgiving of Tyrion's wild boat ride down the stream of consciousness. There has to be a reason for us to see that chunk of the world and that particular bunch of mercs, and Tyrion's a much more elegant choice than a lot of writers might make.
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  #74  
Old 04-23-2017, 10:42 PM
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I haven't sweetened any on the Tyrion/Penny relationship as time's gone on. It's a story maybe worth telling, but in a book that's creaking at the seams already it feels self-indulgent.
Of all the criticisms leveled at books 4 and 5, this is the one that feels most legitimate to me. I'm open to the possibility that something later on will make this worthwhile, but I'm skeptical.
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  #75  
Old 04-24-2017, 07:11 AM
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What is the Tansy thing? I'm bad at putting things together in these books.
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  #76  
Old 04-24-2017, 07:17 AM
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What is the Tansy thing? I'm bad at putting things together in these books.
Tansy is a plant. It's a common component in folk recipes for herbal concoctions intended to cause abortion -- "moon tea," in ASOIAF lingo. Pennyroyal is another one that gets mentioned in the story, I think. Back in Clash of Kings, when Hoster Tully is on his deathbed rambling at Cat, he mentions it, but doesn't elaborate. Then, at the end of Storm of Swords, we realize he was talking about the baby Littlefinger fathered on Lysa when they were kids at Riverrun, which her father forced her to abort.
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  #77  
Old 04-24-2017, 07:18 AM
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What is the Tansy thing? I'm bad at putting things together in these books.
Tansy is an herb used as an abortifacent; Hoster Tully was regretting making Lysa abort Petyr Littlefinger's kid. Probably why she had fertility issues afterwards with Jon Arryn and her son had feeble health.
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  #78  
Old 04-24-2017, 07:18 AM
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jinx, Raider Dr Jones owes me a coke
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  #79  
Old 04-24-2017, 07:23 AM
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Okay. I remember Lysa sleeping with Littlefinger but I don't know if I even remembered her getting pregnant.
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  #80  
Old 04-24-2017, 07:27 AM
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Yeah, even when Lysa spills the beans during her big rant-and-rave at the end of Storm, she's a touch oblique about it. (also that revelation is somewhat overshadowed by HOLY FUCK LITTLEFINGER WAS BEHIND *EVERYTHING*)

Clash has a zillion little details that don't really pop until a second reading. The nod to tansy did trip my wires a little bit, though, because I happened to know what it's used for. I think I have Laurel Thatcher Ulrich to thank for that...
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  #81  
Old 04-24-2017, 07:32 AM
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I don't plan on re-reading the series at all until it's over, but I imagine it'll be pretty interesting
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  #82  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:27 AM
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I don't plan on re-reading the series at all until it's over, but I imagine it'll be pretty interesting
When/if the series is ever finished, I imagine someone will make their fortune by producing annotated editions of the books at $100+ a pop.
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  #83  
Old 04-24-2017, 02:18 PM
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FEAST FOR CROWS POWER RANKINGS

1. Jaime. Positive character development, black humor, his squires get righteously laid.
2. Brienne. Septon Meribald and Dog are the MVPs of the whole book.
3. Cersei. Accomplishes the neat trick of making her both more and less sympathetic at the same time.
4. Arya. Has this neat undercurrent of rising horror as she gradually sacrifices her identity and her humanity. Ends on a dope cliffhanger.
5. Dorne. Underrated and overhated. Doesn't actually take that much space and when Doran reveals the payoff is pretty cool.
6. Alayne. Littlefinger's plotting and intrigue is fun. Waiting for Robert Arryn to get out of bed and get the fuck down that mountain is as annoying for the reader as it is for Sansa.
7. Samwell. Sam is a good dude but his arc here is a lot of space with not much happening.
8. Iron Islands. These guys should be like the most metal thing in the whole saga and instead they suck. I can't understand it.
Do a Dance Power Rankings!
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  #84  
Old 04-24-2017, 02:32 PM
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Strong Belwas looks like an early favorite, imo.
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  #85  
Old 04-24-2017, 02:48 PM
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these POWER RANKINGS are necessarily less precise because some characters in Dance get a dozen chapters and some get one. but let's see what I can do.

DANCE WITH DRAGONS POWER RANKINGS

1. Barristan Selmy. Man these chapters are just realer than hell. An old man looks back on his life and can only see the regrets and missed opportunities. Then he puts on his armor and whoops pitfighter ass.

2. Jon Snow. Chopping Janos Slynt's fuckin head off is possibly the high point of the entire series to date. The twist ending is vicious. Tormund Giantsbane is super rad.

3. Davos Seaworth. Wyman Manderly dukes it out with Godric Borrell to see who can do the best Christopher Walken-type one-shot walk-on performance in the book. Has great loving descriptions of delicious stew.

4. Jaime: A lot like the rest of his arc in Feast and just as much fun. Some great little supporting players like Jonos Bracken and Hoster Blackwood. Sadly there's only one chapter worth.

5. Quentyn Martell. Kind of tedious and irritating until you realize it's a gallows parody of a YA fantasy story. Then it becomes HILARIOUS.

6. Tyrion. I understand that some readers were bored by his magical drunken mystery tour of Essos, which I fucking loved. The chapter in Volantis has a superior bit of Walkening by Vogarro's Whore. Then we get a lot of pages devoted to Penny and diarrhea and it's kinda rough there for a while. Brown Ben Plumm helps the arc end on a high note though.

7. Bran. Cool spooky prophecy shit gets me every time.

8. Victarion. This thread is all setup and not much payoff and I think my eventual view is going to have a lot to do with what the payoff turns out to be. For the moment, though, I like it, because I'm pretty sure what's happening is that Victarion is going to careen right off a cliff like Wile E. Coyote.

9. Theon/Melisandre. This is my most uncertain ranking. I haven't re-read this thread in a long time. I recall wishing I had a GameFAQs walkthrough to understand who was who and what the fuck was going on in the whole intrigue-at-Winterfell arc. Still, I think this one is the one with the Frey pies and hell yeah Frey pies.

10. Areo Hotah. I like Hotah as a viewpoint character but almost nothing happens here.

11. Daenarys. I appreciate the goal of dealing with the realities of her post-conquest situation, but in practice the going is rough. Plus side: Strong Belwas.

12. Asha. This is basically like reading real-life military history about the Eastern Front or Napoleon's retreat from Moscow. You just sit there thinking "man winter is terrible" and "why were you people so fucking stupid."

OTHER: Cersei. They turned this shit into a meme. One of the companies that makes Magic the Gathering accessories, I think it was Legion Supplies, will sell you a deck box that says SHAME and has a little bell on it. Fucking disgusting. I can't look at this chapter objectively.
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  #86  
Old 04-24-2017, 02:51 PM
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Strong Belwas looks like an early favorite, imo.
if there was a whole chapter devoted to Strong Belwas it would be number one with a bullet.

actually give me a whole book where Barristan Selmy and Strong Belwas fight crime.
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  #87  
Old 04-24-2017, 03:22 PM
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if there was a whole chapter devoted to Strong Belwas it would be number one with a bullet.

actually give me a whole book where Barristan Selmy and Strong Belwas fight crime.
You're going to close the tab in disgust when you read this, but those cats map so perfectly to Quantum & Woody that I had to put that in writing.
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  #88  
Old 04-24-2017, 03:30 PM
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I'm trying to figure out the Strong Belwas version of the "did a guy in Laos" speech from Lethal Weapon.
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  #89  
Old 04-28-2017, 09:14 AM
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Default New Reader's Impressions

I've started reading these books and have never seen a minute of footage from the show, this topic is filled with spoilers and etc. (no I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun!), but the posts are wordy enough that I can easily tread without worry and figured to put down some of my thoughts on it so far.

I'm halfway through Clash Of Kings at the moment, and the first thing I noticed while reading it is that it's a great deal tighter in it's writing: the phrases that repeated themselves endlessly in A Game Of Thrones about dripping juices are absent throughout the many meager feasts that happen in part 2 so far, "Would that I could" also appears a lot less and every character seems to be settling into their own voices.

-I dreaded seeing Bran chapters come up until the kids from the swamp came and talked to him about greensight and things got interesting.

-Arya's chapters are frightening when they fight against the Lannisters and get destroyed, and she's come a long way from being my least favorite character in the first book; still, some of the metaphors she remembers from Syrio's teachers are hilariously dumb, I think there's one that goes like Swords cut real good.

-Tyrion is obviously going to get the better of everyone throughout the whole series, isn't he?

-Sansa is by far the saddest the tales get so far, her chapters offer no respite for her life in captivity and it's really easy to feel for her. Everyone I've talked to said that, in the show, her obnoxious character of the first book is laid on really thick and they have a hard time sympathizing with the character after, but if it's anything like it is in the books, maybe the people I talk to are just heartless.

-Catelyn dealing with the bickering kings, what a bummer.

-Theon is a real piece of shit, and his sister Asha introduces herself and quickly becomes the best character in the series so far by thoroughly humiliating that little twerp.


I have no idea what the red wedding entails, and I know about "Hold The Door", but I'm pretty hooked on these and can't wait to get through the rest.

Last edited by ¡HarlequinPanic!; 04-28-2017 at 01:30 PM.
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  #90  
Old 04-28-2017, 09:31 AM
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-I dreaded seeing Bran chapters come up until the kids from the swamp came and talked to him about greensight and things got interesting.
Kendall Shields had the perfect description of their first scene on twitter and I forget exactly how it goes. Something along the lines of, "The Reeds show up and swear the kvltmost oaths and Bran is abashed, like, 'how do I respond to oaths this kvlt'"

Quote:
-Tyrion is obviously going to get the better of everyone throughout the whole series, isn't he?
ho ho ho ho ho.
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