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  #901  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:04 PM
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What really irks me about this event is how far Marvel (or at least the writer of Captain America, same difference) is trying to make Hydra into something that is Definitively Not Nazis, going so far as to recruit Magneto into Hydra because, hey, if Erik is cool with them then they can't really be Nazis, right? Instead of an allegory of current events, which is a charitable interpretation of this mess, the entire situation ends up looking like sincere apologism for white supremacy.
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  #902  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:44 PM
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Well, it's still an allegory for current events, just not the one they probably wanted to put their name on
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  #903  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:54 PM
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They probably expected the election to go the other way, and for reality and comics to match up in "democracy beating the Nazis."

Yeah, about that...
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  #904  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:33 PM
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It's very easy to make the analogy say something, but they keep veering away in fear of being criticized and assessed as saying anything. Spineless.

...

A second spacetwinks essay on how the whole (completely inane) direct market system + endless gimmickry is making Marvel dissolve itself alive first and foremost released today. The first one covered the last few decades, this one covers this decade, and honestly having recently read the first and finding out "pre-ordering comics with minimal information three months in advance is the only way buying an individual comic matters to the company" kind of makes me just want to wait and watch everything collapse into itself.
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  #905  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatterdemalion View Post
A second spacetwinks essay on how the whole (completely inane) direct market system + endless gimmickry is making Marvel dissolve itself alive first and foremost released today. The first one covered the last few decades, this one covers this decade, and honestly having recently read the first and finding out "pre-ordering comics with minimal information three months in advance is the only way buying an individual comic matters to the company" kind of makes me just want to wait and watch everything collapse into itself.
Is their approach to marketing, sales and distribution really all that different from DC, Dark Horse, Image etc? Image and Dark Horse can talk about integrity but both companies are still totally reliant on licensing and franchise money.

And what's to be said about fandom? The people who complain about endless crossovers and events are the same people who shell out money for the damn things. Is anyone here really going to shut Marvel out of their life because of how offensive Nazi Cap is? Hell no.
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  #906  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:49 PM
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The thesis in those is about how the potential for new readers and sales are demonstrably shed off after volume shifts and events, plus how events don't even boost sales anymore to the point of having fallen far below the glory of barely a decade or two ago, but sure, The Core doesn't care, so why should anybody.

Marvel is a critical target due to recent events and being really vocal about bad business decisions, but D.C. still has had plenty of nonsense in earlier years. Just fresh blood in the water.

Last edited by Tatterdemalion; 04-20-2017 at 07:01 PM.
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  #907  
Old 04-20-2017, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ghosttaster View Post
Is anyone here really going to shut Marvel out of their life because of how offensive Nazi Cap is? Hell no.
Well, maybe, actually.
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  #908  
Old 04-20-2017, 07:57 PM
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people will probably still watch the movies but plenty of people will happily stop buying the comics (though the reasoning may be less "this is really offensive, i'm out" and more "this is really stupid, i'm out")
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  #909  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghosttaster View Post
Is anyone here really going to shut Marvel out of their life because of how offensive Nazi Cap is? Hell no.
Hi, I cancelled my Marvel Unlimited subscription and cut the last six Marvel books on my pull list yesterday, so miss me with that "Marvel readers will put up with anything" line.
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  #910  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ghosttaster View Post
And what's to be said about fandom? The people who complain about endless crossovers and events are the same people who shell out money for the damn things.
I think it was Joe Quesada who said that they'd rather have readers that were angry than readers that were happy.

He would know, too.
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  #911  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghosttaster View Post
Is anyone here really going to shut Marvel out of their life because of how offensive Nazi Cap is? Hell no.
I wasn't going to, but, you know, I can support the creators of Ms Marvel elsewhere and the movies are hitting Netflix and cable in record time (or I can just buy tickets to other films and sneak into Marvel ones), so, after thinking about your post, yeah, I can absolutely shut Marvel comics out of my life and stop supporting all other forms of Marvel Ent financially without any issues. Thanks!
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  #912  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:37 PM
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This is the fucking wrong year to 'reveal' that Captain America was secretly a Nazi all along.
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  #913  
Old 04-21-2017, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Solitayre View Post
This is the fucking wrong year to 'reveal' that Captain America was secretly a Nazi all along.
This implies there was a "right" year to do that.

Quote:
What really irks me about this event is how far Marvel (or at least the writer of Captain America, same difference) is trying to make Hydra into something that is Definitively Not Nazis,
You'd think step one would be for them to stop having Hydra go around shouting "Hail H----" everywhere, but they didn't even bother to give it that much thought.

On the other hand, we haven't had this fun a game of "how far can one company's sales tank" since mid-90s Marvel.
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  #914  
Old 04-21-2017, 09:55 AM
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How ‘Captain America: Steve Rogers’ Is Trying To Disassociate HYDRA From Nazis And Why It Won’t Work


Also, this reads like it's gonna be the "rogue Justice Leaguers conspire to mindwipe villains and Batman" of Marvel Comics, in how it retroactively colors every Avengers and Captain America story in ways those writers would've never conceived of. It wasn't a good idea then, it's an even worse one now.
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  #915  
Old 04-21-2017, 10:00 AM
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Marvel is asking retailers to dress up like Hydra during the event.
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  #916  
Old 04-21-2017, 10:17 AM
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Marvel is just straight up begging fanboy Twitter to roast them some more.
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  #917  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven View Post
You'd think step one would be for them to stop having Hydra go around shouting "Hail H-
nick spencer on twitter: no no no hydra are not nazis shutupShutUpSHUTUP

nick spencer's comics: captain america helped the nazis win, and was actually always a nazi

???
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  #918  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zef View Post
Also, this reads like it's gonna be the "rogue Justice Leaguers conspire to mindwipe villains and Batman" of Marvel Comics, in how it retroactively colors every Avengers and Captain America story in ways those writers would've never conceived of. It wasn't a good idea then, it's an even worse one now.
The thing with that one was that they made very certain (at least at first, I think Johns foolishly expanded the concept later to include Catwoman and others) to state that was a one-time thing. And it was Hawkman's idea, and, well, I still think that makes sense for him because Hawkman's supposed to be something of a miserable asshole.

This is much, much larger than that. This is asking us to believe that WWII only happened as it did because someone fucked with reality. That's only, y'know, the most important event in human history. A bit of a leap up from brainwiping a rapey Dr. Light.
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  #919  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:22 AM
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USA: we got a cosmic cube, let's reset reality
Other Allies: should we make it so all those gypsies, jews and homosexuals didn't get sent to death camps?
USA: nah, we gotta leave 'em in, see, because it makes the Nazis look more evil
Other Allies: what about those prison camps where you sent all the Japanese?
USA: comparatively speaking
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  #920  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estragon View Post
nick spencer on twitter: no no no hydra are not nazis shutupShutUpSHUTUP

nick spencer's comics: captain america helped the nazis win, and was actually always a nazi

???
Yeah, disregard my "Hydra don't scan as Nazis to me" remarks from before. It's clear they do to the writer of this storyline.
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  #921  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:26 AM
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Yah, I wasn't comparing the "realistic" magnitude of the localized fallout of Identity Crisis with everything that Secret Empire implies, but how Marvel is now stating that...

* Cap punching Hitler? A diversion to fool the Allies.
* Steve becoming Nomad because the govt asked him to compromise his ideals as Cap? White-hot hypocrisy.
* Cap being the moral center of countless Avengers tales? He didn't mean any of it.
* Cap fighting for personal freedoms in Civil War? A lie.

Marvel is saying literally everything Cap has ever done, he's done as a Hydra agent that was brainwashed into "goodness." Marvel is saying that, if Steve Rogers returns to the "status quo" of being a good guy, that will be just another brainwash, because the real Steve was never good.

So good luck rereading his 70-year comic history now and not have that tidbit itching away at the back of your head.

But yeah, all the above is limited to how it affects Steve's personal history. They could have left it at that and it would've been bad enough for their continuous narrative. Then they just HAD to make ALL of World War II a reality-rewrite too, and that's... well. There's really not much to say beyond a palm planted firmly on one's forehead.
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  #922  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:45 AM
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*reads marvel's response*

*taps mic*

lmao
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  #923  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:50 AM
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I think I understand a little better why Marvel was so quick to jump on the "diversity doesn't sell" line now
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  #924  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
*reads marvel's response*

*taps mic*

lmao
Did they make a response to all this? I'm not seeing one on CBR or the like.
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  #925  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:59 AM
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Wow, I thought this thing was terrible enough as it is but... yeah, this might put me off Marvel for a while. It helps that I don't get monthlies, though.

Deciding that apparently the actual default Marvel Universe is ruled by Nazis seems especially terrible. Ugh.

Man, looks like the worm has really turned on the whole "Marvel's doing it right, DC can't stop flubbing" thing from a couple years ago.
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  #926  
Old 04-21-2017, 12:08 PM
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Its a 3-5 year cycle.
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  #927  
Old 04-21-2017, 12:25 PM
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Yes, right now DC is in ascendancy, so it's Marvels turn to be Worst.

...actually, Archie has been rising progressively higher over there past five years and shows no signs of slowing... so i guess they're the True King now.
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  #928  
Old 04-21-2017, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estragon View Post
nick spencer on twitter: no no no hydra are not nazis shutupShutUpSHUTUP

nick spencer's comics: captain america helped the nazis win, and was actually always a nazi

???
nick spencer's comics: actually what if the Allies were the real villains of World War 2

You know at a certain point here, one really has to start asking... Certain questions. Like "Wait, isn't Marvel's President a huge Trump backer? Where is this editorial direction coming from?"
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  #929  
Old 04-21-2017, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Westerhof View Post
Did they make a response to all this? I'm not seeing one on CBR or the like.
The cap writer's twitter feed has been shitting the bed with the lights on
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  #930  
Old 04-21-2017, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
The cap writer's twitter feed has been shitting the bed with the lights on
yeah, for some weeks now Nick Spencer has offered a textbook case study in why you have marketing and PR to provide a filter for your creative people.
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