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  #1381  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:37 PM
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Junpei was alright! He definitely grew on me throughout P3. And Yukari on her own wasn't too bad on her own either. But together? Ugh.

You know how sometimes you have two friends who don't get along with each other? Like, you have one friend who is great, and another friend who is great in a different way, but if the three of you ever hang out together it turns into a shitfest because they just aren't compatible? Junpei and Yukari were like that to me.

Yosuke though...man, he was like Junpei but with any charm replaced with awful.
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  #1382  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willm View Post
I have to say, while I don't think the group dynamic is as strong as P4, I like every character individually (I'm only to mid-July right now) and there hasn't been anyone that I actively dislike, like Yosuke in P4 or...like, half the cast of P3.

Speaking of P3, I really need to play that again, apparently! I've seen a lot of people talk about how it has the best Persona cast ever, or at least a better case than P5, and I...just don't see it? Yukari and Junpei annoyed the hell out of me with their constant bickering. good God Yukari if you say Stupei one more time I'm kicking you off the team Akihiko was OK but kind of boring. Ken the little kid with such a lust for revenge made me cringe. Aigis was a battlebot that just so happened to look like a high school girl because anime. Shinjiro was, as UUDD so succinctly texted me, the edgy former Puddle of Mudd bassist you never wanted.

P3 was basically me, my awesome dog, awesome Mitsuru, and Akihiko.

Maybe they're better than I remember! But I have much fonder memories of the P4 cast and so far the P5 cast is giving me that same feeling, though the lack of differentiation in how they are written, as Kylie described, is definitely a problem.
Yeah, I'm definitely not saying i loved all the characters in earlier Personas - because heck no - but they were distinct individually and had internal dynamics and interplay and I had FEELINGS about them. Junpei and Yukari bickered, Yukari and Mitsuru had a mild rivalry, and when things happened to & with them, even if I didn't like them, I cared. Here, they kinda have... characteristics? Like not having money. Or being foreign. But not personalities that exist alongside each other, or distinct relationships that are consistent across multiple convos. And that's what I want. (Note: And they were VERY different and so much BETTER in P3P, too!)

Final ghost edit: I will also say that P5 has the unenviable script task of having to offload LOTS of exposition to the American player for context both of its mundane world and its complete-nonsense world, and I can see where at a certain point conversations might start to look like desperation infodumps to translators/editors on a deadline. This script is massive and it probably gets hard to make pseudoscience ideas sound like they're specifically spoken by e.g. Ann Takamaki at some point.

100% true that the phone convos are FAR better than the in person convos. Phone convos even manage comedic timing on occasion and that is pretty fantastic.
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  #1383  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:56 PM
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co-sign on the texting being sharply done and much more consistently individually voiced. I honestly think it's part of why I like the cast as much as I do so far.

as far as Yosuke goes, his character would have been so much more sympathetic if they went for the "closeted and angsting queer guy" angle from his cut romance option, and his jerky spiky bits would have been a lot more explicable.
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  #1384  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:08 PM
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Yeah, I definitely do wish there were more interactions between the characters during cutscenes; as others have said, a lot of that seemed to have been relegated to texting group chats or bits of dialog while driving around Mementos. It's a shame, because when it does show up it's pretty nice! The Makoto/Ann scene that UUDD described earlier or whenever Ryuji and Ann talk about middle school come to mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylie View Post
(Note: And they were VERY different and so much BETTER in P3P, too!)
I really need to play P3P sometime! The vast majority of my P3 experience is from P3 Vanilla or FES. I had it for the PSP but never had the time to give it much of a shot.

Quote:
100% true that the phone convos are FAR better than the in person convos. Phone convos even manage comedic timing on occasion and that is pretty fantastic.
One of my favorite scenes was whenRyuji, after texting an idiotic idea to the group who then asked for ideas on how to execute said idea, kept typing and deleting something before shamefully going silent. They even nailed the texting "..." indicator! Perfect.
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  #1385  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willm View Post
Yeah, I definitely do wish there were more interactions between the characters during cutscenes; as others have said, a lot of that seemed to have been relegated to texting group chats or bits of dialog while driving around Mementos. It's a shame, because when it does show up it's pretty nice! The Makoto/Ann scene that UUDD described earlier or whenever Ryuji and Ann talk about middle school come to mind.
The scene UUDD described is SO GOOD and if the whole script were anywhere near that quality either in terms of textual or thematic consistency this would be my favoritesona, hands down.

Quote:
I really need to play P3P sometime! The vast majority of my P3 experience is from P3 Vanilla or FES. I had it for the PSP but never had the time to give it much of a shot.
Without spoiling too much: The relationships you have with women as FeMC are REMARKABLY different in P3P, and you get to see a Mitsuru that's not just Rich Bitch (or extra Rich Bitch, if you prefer), a Fuuka that's not just Shitty Cook, and a Shinjiro that isn't just Puddle of Mudd.

Quote:
One of my favorite scenes was whenRyuji, after texting an idiotic idea to the group who then asked for ideas on how to execute said idea, kept typing and deleting something before shamefully going silent. They even nailed the texting "..." indicator! Perfect.
My personal fave is Yusuke hitting SEND too early resulting in (paraphrased):
R: We could all go out together!
Y: I certainly would like to get some
A: What the shit
Y: dinner with all of you.
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  #1386  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Juno500 View Post
Also, as somebody with a degree in psychology: I don't really think the word "cognition" works well in the manner they're using it. Cognition is best thought of as an action or a process, but this game uses it to describe a person's mental state. Cognition obviously influences an individual's mental state, but we wouldn't say the mental state itself is a cognition.
Update: THIS STILL BOTHERS ME VERY MUCH.
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  #1387  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:48 PM
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Since the game uses "cognitive" when what it really means lies somewhere in the spectrum of "perceived", "projected", "idealized", or even just "fantasized", what would be a better alternative?
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  #1388  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:00 PM
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I also want to stress the point that the female main character's perspective in P3P is completely game-changing. The context for the pre-existing material shifts entirely (for the better), and every added aside, scene or storyline is better than what original version of the game had. It's unbelievable to me that playing as the boy you can't initiate Social Links with any of the other male main characters. That, and how every relationship with a female teammate/classmate ends in romance without the option to pursue a friendship, paints the design mentality used for the first iteration of the Social Link system in really gross light. Or even worse than usual, take your pick.

Put it this way: I tried starting Persona 3 FES multiple times and every time I gave up on it for one reason or another, and P3P is pretty easily the only one of the games developed by the modern Persona staff that I would recommend to others and generally have a pretty fond opinion of. Pink menus!

uhhhhh Persona 5? Makoto is a good character stuck in a game that's beneath her, the game breaks out the animation cutscene budget to only have the camera creep on Ann and Makoto's bodies, Ryuji is still an indignantly molesting shithead, and the game continues to fail in practicing what it preaches regarding most of its topics on ethics and morality. Also raising the middle finger to Hashino and Soejima and not going to have the main character date anyone in this heteronormative hellscape. I imagine my dude has a schoolboy crush on Iwai and needs to eat more gigantic burgers to work up the courage to talk to him but that's where the line is drawn.

I'm getting to fuse buds like Isis, Setanta and Pisaca though, so there's the salvation I'm looking for.
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  #1389  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zef View Post
Since the game uses "cognitive" when what it really means lies somewhere in the spectrum of "perceived", "projected", "idealized", or even just "fantasized", what would be a better alternative?
It would depend on the context, but I generally think "perception/perceived" would work best.
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  #1390  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:26 PM
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All this talk certainly explains why I've been 0 percent interested in maxing out Confidants. I mean, I'm working on Temperance, Fortune, Hierophant, and Hermit, but that's just for gameplay stuff. I'm spending much more time jailing Personas and throwing money down the Gallows hole.
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  #1391  
Old 04-20-2017, 07:57 PM
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If you want good character interactions, my recommendation is to go for the Hierophant confidant. It is by far my favorite one. I wish there were more Confidants that involved characters from other Confidants, maybe even require X rank in the other one to progress. If it's for the sake of these characters acknowledging each other's existence outside of the main plot, I would gladly put up with the extra time investment. My ideal Persona game would actually let me play cupid with other characters instead of the MC being some sort of ROMANCE SINGULARITY that sucks up all the affection in the universe. I'm not even asking for some ridiculous Fire Emblem-style free for all shipping buffet. Even having a single possible pairing that doesn't involve the protagonist would be nice.

Ann's confidant also has some pretty good material on the later ranks. I particularly liked how her relationship with her "rival" is handled. Ann would honestly be justified in saying "wow, what a bitch", but instead is sincerely impressed by her tenacity and hard work, which I thought was a pretty admirable reaction. And she's right! Mika (was that her name?) might not be a good person, but her drive to succeed is... commendable. Sorta. Good on the writers for showing some restraint for once and not going for the low hanging fruit.

By the way, Atlus apparently registered a bunch of domains, quite a few of which include "P5" in their name. Secretly hoping for a definitive switch version where I can play as a girl and BFF all the girls without having to break any hearts in the process (this is unlikely enough as it is that I'm not even going to contemplate the possibility of same sex relationships).

Last edited by Erilex; 04-20-2017 at 09:12 PM.
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  #1392  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:08 PM
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I want to love these characters. Makoto, holy shit! She drives a PERSONACYCLE, but also she's got this repression-into-personal-agency thing going that I'm a gigantic sucker for always (waves at SMTIV's cast, also mired in Atlus Bullshit). I can tell there's something there under the translation gaffes. I'll keep her next to my heart anyways, along with every other nugget of interesting character traits and dynamics that gets through, because fanwork fears no canon.

But...fuck, dude, this could have been so much better. But it's not, and now it won't be. And that's...so disappointing.
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  #1393  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:10 PM
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So far nearly all of the Confidants have corresponded very clearly and in clever ways to their arcana, though (I figure the rest just need a few ranks on them). My meganerd leanings are happy about that.
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  #1394  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hologramblue View Post
But...fuck, dude, this could have been so much better. But it's not, and now it won't be. And that's...so disappointing.
HB, do you say this in response to the translation?

I'm asking because I played the first dozen or so hours of P5 in Japanese after being super-hyped about it for months leading up to the release. P4 is one of my favourite games ever (played it through in Japanese and in English).

Anyway, my point is, I found P5 really disappointing because none of the characters in the first 10-12 hours seemed fun. They were all super serious, and angsty, and generally unlikable (with the exception of Morgana).

I'm not sure the localization is the issue, in other words. That's all. From what I've seen of the English version of the game, it definitely seems problematic, to say the least, so I'm not calling anyone out for faulting it. But I also think the writing in the original version felt less friendly and inviting by far than P4 (or even P3, or SMTIV).

At first, this really put me off the game, and I gave up on it early. But now, seeing the response to the Western release, I'm thinking I may have been overly harsh. Maybe P5 is prickly and harsh at the outset, and warms up later?

Compared to the early-game casts of P3 and P4, though, I think Ryuji and Ann aren't much fun to hang out with, and that kind of kills the enjoyment in a game like this, you know?
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  #1395  
Old 04-21-2017, 12:00 AM
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Ryuji and Ann chill out a lot once you deal with Kamoshida. Also to be fair most of your party members in P4 were pretty mopey and/or angsty until you rescued them in P4.

But it is also true that the game starts you in a different place than P3 or P4 - your P5 protag is a (wrongfully) convicted criminal, which pretty much everyone knows, and so everyone initially treats him like one. It's not like P3 or P4 where you're just the cool transfer student.
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  #1396  
Old 04-21-2017, 06:40 AM
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I just finished Palace 4 and have started August.

I'm kind of running out of steam with this game, am I at least at the halfway point here?
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  #1397  
Old 04-21-2017, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
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I just finished Palace 4 and have started August.

I'm kind of running out of steam with this game, am I at least at the halfway point here?
Yeah you're halfway done now.
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  #1398  
Old 04-21-2017, 06:59 AM
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The midboss theme is PS2 as fuck and i love it.
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  #1399  
Old 04-21-2017, 09:00 AM
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Man, I will never get the love for the P4 cast. I find all of them stupid and grating, Naoto is the only tolerable one. The P3 cast is who I'd want to hang out with, they seemed to have actual life goals and drive instead of constant whining.

But I remember another thread where this came up and someone summarized it as "P4 was a group of friends, P3 was a group of coworkers" and that might explain my preference. I make friends in real life with people who are good coworkers or lab partners or teammates, and generally ignore people who just seem to slack off. I wouldn't have expected it to translate to these characters but there ya go.

I'm still debating the P5 cast...
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  #1400  
Old 04-21-2017, 10:00 AM
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I don't remember much about Persona 3. I played it immediately after 4 and was completely underwhelmed. For me, Persona 4 is mysterious and captivating and dangerous with its small town setting, actual shown murders (something P5 is really shying away from), and themes like survivor's guilt and envy told in mature, interesting ways. 3 was stylish and interesting in a number of ways with its evokers and the midnight hour effects, but it felt like they were more considerate of what they felt they could play off of better in the next game after introducing this new style of Persona to the world. Androids were zzzz and strega were a neat idea that doesn't really pay off in any interesting way.

With that in mind, the 8 year gap between playing that and P5 has felt necessary for me, despite how long the development seemed to stretch on. If I played this coming right off of 4 I'd say this is a complete rehash, which isn't true, but it certainly isn't much of an evolution either. Playing it fresh off Catherine has left me with enough misgivings as it is~

So far I'm a bit let down by some of the characterization. I like the characters, but things that should be important plot points don't really play at to mean anything at this point: Ryuji's constant desire for popularity and accolade for being a phantom thief sounds like something that could turn into a major fuck-up for the team, they play off it a few times for Palace 3, but he doesn't really grow from the experience. It'd be great if the game plays something like that off, but so far nothing in the game is telling me that anything the characters do really matters in the plot once they are introduced to the story and join up. It's possible (and hopefully) I'm just being impatient!
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  #1401  
Old 04-21-2017, 10:32 AM
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Aaiugh I can't read this thread anymore. There's too many Big Opionins, that I don't want coloring my expectations because I'm really liking it so far and may not be hyper aware of the flaws. I'll see y'all when I beat it.
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  #1402  
Old 04-21-2017, 04:04 PM
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Finished Palace 7 and at a week away until the deadline. With luck I can get Emperor maxed just in time.

I think this is my favorite song so far.
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  #1403  
Old 04-21-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Juno500 View Post
Finished Palace 7 and at a week away until the deadline. With luck I can get Emperor maxed just in time.

I think this is my favorite song so far.
I finished this palace last night, and was almost certain I knew where that link was going when I clicked on it. I was not disappointed.

In fact, I've been paralleling you my entire play through, and even if I posted more frequently I wouldn't need to here, as your pretty much posting my thoughts as I have them.
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  #1404  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:34 PM
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Despite its other issues, Persona 5 nails the combat, dungeon design, and fusion / persona management mechanics so hard it's my favorite one. Like, I hope these features seep into Shin Megami Tensei proper. By which I mean Deep Strange Journey, because it's the only mainline SMT game released since Nocturne.

This post's twist is that I'm saying that because of SMTIV's fusion mechanics, not its story.
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  #1405  
Old 04-21-2017, 08:53 PM
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Yeah, it'll be hard to go back to mainline SMT if it's still using dice rolls for demon negotiations.
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  #1406  
Old 04-22-2017, 09:58 AM
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I really did like SMTIV's "auto-buy" function where you could look up ANY possible demon you could fuse, and it would fuse it directly out of the Compendium if you didn't have it on you (even if you didn't have room for it in your stock.)

My case IS the edgiest of the edge, because I'm deliberately fusing EVERY single Persona (which has kept me bankrupt for the last month), but I liked not having to memorize which combinations led to which results and then freaking out because I can't remember which two Personas led to, I dunno, Yaksini.
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  #1407  
Old 04-22-2017, 10:27 AM
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Oh yeah, I like fusion search as an option but I wanted traditional fusion as an option in SMTIV, too. Making it easy to make any given Demon / Persona you want? Great! Making it fiddly and tedious to just strap two Demons in your stock together? Stupid. Letting you fuse demons mid-battle? ??????????????
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  #1408  
Old 04-22-2017, 12:34 PM
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The best things fusion does in this game are 1)forcing you to keep the demon's default skills and 2)limiting the slots you can put your stuff in.

So many miles better than SMTIV or SMTIV:Final. In those games my demons felt like Skill Packages without any actual identity. In this game the Persona's have some identity because you don't have full control. I think this is a good compromise between XOXOXOXOXOXO and complete freedom. I hope they carry it over to NuSMT
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  #1409  
Old 04-22-2017, 12:39 PM
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Isn't "fixed skills + custom slots" just Devil Survivor's set-up? That also had search and direct fusion both available.
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  #1410  
Old 04-22-2017, 12:58 PM
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So, I'm past the second Palace, and a lot of the stuff around that has given me things to think about. I'm still filtering through a lot of it, but so far I'm getting the impression that the main characters are among some of the most realistic characters I've seen in a jRPG.

Like, a lot has been said so far about how dirtbaggy some of them are, and how some of the character interactions contradict the message the game is trying to put forward (and some of those I haven't gotten to just yet, but I did start up Temperance), but at the same time the way that the characters are acting in these instances feels natural. That we have a cast of kids who are trying to do what they feel is bettering the world, but also being asshole kids, is not... like, actually out of the norm? This is how student activism kind of is. What would normally happen, hopefully, is that real kids would do something shitty that hurts their message, and get told about that and hopefully learn from their mistakes (and I feel that this actually happens far less in modern days then it did when I was a kid, dealing with the same kind of dirtbags in P5).

But the Phantom Thieves, themselves a crew of outcasts and misfits, don't have anyone other then each other to do those kinds of course correcting, so I'm not surprised that there's very little in-game objecting to some of the sleezier things. I do wish there were a few more MC dialog options to not just always go along with things, though. But I myself am also a very different kind of person then who the MC is supposed to be.

So, I don't know. Like I said, I'm in between the second and third palaces (just past the TV station segment), but so far while I understand the complaints about the characterizations, it all kind of strikes me as very accurate to how I would actually expect a group of 16 year old social outcasts who think they're changing the world to be acting. The fact that I actually have gone to school with, and currently work with, people who act in similar ways reinforces that. But I'm still unpacking things, and I've got a lot of game left, so we'll see. I just really had to get this off my chest.



Also, I made friends with Anime Bernie Sanders, and that's pretty great. And the way Sae keeps interjecting about the Phantom Thieves support network borders on the ridiculous.

Last edited by Umbaglo; 04-22-2017 at 01:27 PM.
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