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  #10441  
Old 09-21-2018, 05:18 PM
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Some of the funniest TOS episodes are the ones that just fill like half of their runtime with languid scenes of Kirk fighting alien savages (played by white people dressed up in an aboriginal or orientalist stereotype) by doing terrible judo chops and some of the worst professional wrestling choreography of all time.
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  #10442  
Old 09-21-2018, 07:41 PM
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I really enjoyed watching TOS in HD because you can tell exactly when the stunt double subs in for Shatner.

The bad Kirk-fights are a delight. I'd be interested in someone doing an exhaustive study on fight choreography in 60s TV shows. I don't recall any contemporary shows (re: Batman) giving us anything less embarrassing or awful. The only exception being the Green Hornet.

Ironically, bad fights is part of what makes TAS so charming. Because the animation budget was fished out from the sofa cushions, they can't actually afford any fights whatsoever. Pretty much every dilemma then necessitates Kirk & Co to talk their way out of problems, which is the platonic ideal of Star Trek.

Also, this TAS crossover episode with the "Known Space" series was pretty cool. Might have to go read those books finally.
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  #10443  
Old 09-22-2018, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
I'd be interested in someone doing an exhaustive study on fight choreography in 60s TV shows. I don't recall any contemporary shows (re: Batman) giving us anything less embarrassing or awful. The only exception being the Green Hornet.
The closest thing I can find on the subject is probably Seanbaby's 9 Supposed Action Stars Who Clearly Couldn't Fight.
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  #10444  
Old 09-22-2018, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
The bad Kirk-fights are a delight.
I remember an interview with William Shatner where he talks about Kirk's fighting style in Star Trek, and how he once was going to confront some bullies in case they threatened his daughter. He mentioned how he considered using Kirk's drop kick but then realized what a bad move that actually was in real life.
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  #10445  
Old 09-23-2018, 12:37 AM
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My personal favorite is probably the hanging leg grip, effective even against genetically manipulated superhumans:

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  #10446  
Old 09-28-2018, 09:16 PM
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I like the idea of the poker scenes that are intermittently featured on The Next Generation. But my goodness I wish the writers had gone to a casino and actually played some poker because a string bet is not a thing that's allowed but they do it constantly on the show. (Though to be fair, this is a problem not limited to TNG.)
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  #10447  
Old 09-28-2018, 09:45 PM
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Maybe poker is different in the future?
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  #10448  
Old 09-28-2018, 10:26 PM
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Why can't it be house-rules?
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  #10449  
Old 09-29-2018, 12:34 PM
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Me and my cousin marathoned Discovery and while I really really like it, it has one of my most hated things in Star Trek: an ENTIRE FOUR FUCKING EPISODES of the fucking Mirror Universe that I HATE MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. YES EVEN MORE THAN TIME TRAVEL BULLSHIT. And then they hinge the season finale on it. UGH UGH UGH UGH. Though Michelle Yeoh as evil Emperor Georgiou was something. Seriously why do they keep revisiting it? It's so fucking stupid and always are the worst episodes in any fucking series. UGH.
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  #10450  
Old 09-29-2018, 01:58 PM
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The Original Series mirror universe episode I think is pretty good, especially how it managed to establish a fairly detailed alternate universe with a fairly small budget. And the Enterprise episode is very fun, since it doesn't really take the premise very seriously, but tries to throw in a whole bunch of darkly humorous stuff.

I guess the mirror universe should be used very sparingly, so that when it does show up it's all the more interesting. Discovery just dumps a whole load of it out at once.
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  #10451  
Old 10-03-2018, 10:58 PM
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The Mirror Universe is rad. It's one of the best things about Star Trek. These are the reasons why:

1) They're the perfect level of hokey cheese. They're just fun. It's like Bride of Chaotica cheese, but actually happening. I adore them.

2) They're fantastic showcases to let the actors let loose and really ham it up. It's just fun to get to see our favorite people break character and just really dial it up.

3) It's a much more interesting plot device to explore an elseworld story than Yet Another Holodeck Episode, or Convergent Evolution Faux-Earth #1485, or Oops Time Travel Mistake Episode.

Now, ideally here, it was a mistake to put it so heavily in the first season. Getting to see not!crew ham it up is great because of the contrast to the real crew we know and love. But we barely know these characters in Season 1, so it lacks the gravitas to see characters we don't know act differently. But MU episodes aren't inherently bad.
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  #10452  
Old 10-03-2018, 11:04 PM
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Having all of TOS (and TAS) fresh in my mind, it's kinda amazing that in the popular imagination of the show, and what the various movies bring a focus on, that Nurse Chapel does not feature more prominently. Like, wow. Majel Barrett probably has more meaningful screen time and lines of dialog than Sulu, Chekov, and Uhura put together. And her unrequited love with Spock is probably the single longest continuous plot thread in the whole show.
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  #10453  
Old 10-05-2018, 07:27 AM
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Anyone watch the Tilly Short Trek?
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  #10454  
Old 10-07-2018, 08:33 AM
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Wow, that last scene in Requiem for Methuselah must have inspired a lot of slash fic, huh.

I thought going in that Kirk/Spock was some of the first published and circulated slash fiction in modern fan culture just because Star Trek was one of the main things you could potentially be a "fan" of in the sense that we understand it now, and they were the main characters. But then you get occasional moments like that and yeah of course it inspired people looking for queer moments.
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  #10455  
Old 10-09-2018, 05:52 PM
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Has anyone played the 25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites PC adventure games from the early 90s? Reading online, some people describe these as a kind of Secret 5th Season, like how TAS was a Secret 4th Season.

Are these games with a fail state, or just a situation where you can just do trial and error until you figure out the correct solution? I'm potentially up for trying an early 90s PC adventure game with the original voice cast, but if there are strict fail states I'd probably rather just watch a playthrough on youtube.
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  #10456  
Old 10-09-2018, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meditative_Zebra View Post
I like the idea of the poker scenes that are intermittently featured on The Next Generation. But my goodness I wish the writers had gone to a casino and actually played some poker because a string bet is not a thing that's allowed but they do it constantly on the show. (Though to be fair, this is a problem not limited to TNG.)
I've played a fair bit of casual poker and people string bet all the time. It's entirely accurate that a casual game between coworkers in the future would feature something like that.
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  #10457  
Old 10-10-2018, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estragon View Post
Has anyone played the 25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites PC adventure games from the early 90s? Reading online, some people describe these as a kind of Secret 5th Season, like how TAS was a Secret 4th Season.

Are these games with a fail state, or just a situation where you can just do trial and error until you figure out the correct solution? I'm potentially up for trying an early 90s PC adventure game with the original voice cast, but if there are strict fail states I'd probably rather just watch a playthrough on youtube.
I own both of these and completed them both back when I was younger, and I remember really enjoying them, but I'm afraid I can't speak to this with authority since my memory is pretty bad. That said, to the best of my memory it's the latter? More in the LucasArts style than the Sierra style. However, they also have real-time ship combat that you can lose and game over, if that's not the sort of thing you're in for.
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  #10458  
Old 10-10-2018, 09:58 AM
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Thanks. A trial and error adventure game punctuated by game over-able combat sequences sounds fine to me.

I'm leaning even more toward trying the games out because a few episodes into the animated series now I'm finding that most of the cast work much better as voice actors. I think basically only Nimoy's performance is improved by having a human body to work with, but he's also probably the strongest voice actor so it's not a huge loss. (Maybe also Koenig gives a good physical performance, but he's not on TAS so it's hard to compare...)

I've heard people describe the voice overs in the animated series (and later the games) as sounding phoned in or sedated, but honestly I much prefer this relaxed approach to the "when it doubt, go to 11" performance style of the live action show.
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  #10459  
Old 10-10-2018, 09:28 PM
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I played the first episode of 25th Anniversary and I declare this 90s adventure game to be: Very Fun.

The ship combat takes some getting used to but there's a simulation you can practice on at the very start of the game, so you can just leave a save there to fool around with it.
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  #10460  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estragon View Post
I've heard people describe the voice overs in the animated series (and later the games) as sounding phoned in or sedated, but honestly I much prefer this relaxed approach to the "when it doubt, go to 11" performance style of the live action show.
I wouldn't say I prefer it, and it's definitely phoned in. But it's good in its own way. It's surprising how easy it is you can take TAS seriously, and part of it has to do with how the voice acting is this wonderful, happy accident.

I'm watching TNG now. Some noteworthy moments:

- I know it's been talked to death before, and Code of Honor is a bad episode. But I kinda get the point behind it. At its core, the episode is a remake of Time Amok. It's just a really fuckin' bad idea to make your episode about tolerating other cultures The Planet of Black People. Especially when most of your cast is white.

- I've watched TNG a lot over the years. But never with TOS so fresh in my mind. And it's kinda crazy how I never noticed how much TOS DNA is in this first season. A lot of the music would be right at home in a TOS episode. A lot of the bad directing and writing too. I'm noting a lot of overlap in the writing credits (DC Fontana is here a lot and doing a mixed bag of work). And everything is sexually charged in a Gene Roddenberry way that fits more at home in TOS than the later seasons of TNG.

- Lonely Among Us is the most boring episode where nothing happens (this is not a complaint), except for the very end when suddenly Picard jumps on a transporter pad and scatters his molecules to the winds of space for reasons that aren't particularly justifiable. Then the crew just calls up his pattern sitting in the buffer and just remake him and there's some really weird ship of thesus questions going on right now that the show doesn't even seem aware of asking.

- Justice is both an amazing and an awful episode. It's Star Trek at its horniest, so it's awesome. But the plot makes zero sense. Wesley trips and falls into a flower bed. This means he must be put to death immediately. Picard & crew sit and agonize about following the Prime Directive - where they must respect and follow the laws of other cultures. Problem with this is:

1) The Enterprise specifically asked to be informed about their laws before landing and the planet of horny aliens didn't properly brief them so I'd hardly say Wesley is culpable, since ignorance of the law is not the fault of Wesley here.

2) Wesley is an underaged kid; this society only has one penalty for breaking the law - death. So what happens when a toddler does the same thing? Do they execute babies? How can this planet's legal system reconcile that?

3) Picard is worried about the Prime Directive. Except that this civilization doesn't appear to be capable of space flight. So why are they down there and contacting them to begin with? Seems like the Prime Directive has already been violated, why start caring now?

The episode ends with Picard saying that well, I'll probably get in trouble for this, and this is against our most sacred laws, but uh, naw, fuck this shit. And just leaving. So the moral of the story is, laws are good, until they're not, and then you can pick and choose which ones to follow.
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  #10461  
Old 10-11-2018, 12:34 AM
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Regarding the Star Trek adventure games: Be aware that the second one, Judgement Rites, gets a little buggy by the end (but never game-breakingly so, as I recall). It also has a weird voice acting moment where DeForest Kelley starts laughing in the middle of some technobabble, and they just leave it in. Still, it's a pretty great game, even better than the first one, with plenty of clever references to the show, and even some episodes that can be considered sequels to them. It also gets a bit more Star Treky philosophical than the first game, which is neat. And the space simulation bits are made optional.

Also, the NES game "Star Trek: 25th Anniversary" is a completely different game, that is also pretty entertaining, if just a bit more Zelda-style action-oriented.
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  #10462  
Old 10-11-2018, 08:23 AM
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Also, the NES game "Star Trek: 25th Anniversary" is a completely different game, that is also pretty entertaining, if just a bit more Zelda-style action-oriented.
Yeah, I like that one a lot too. It has a sequel to the TOS episode A Piece of the Action, which is probably my favourite away mission in the game. It's certainly the one that sticks out most in my memory, at any rate!

There was also a fun SNES TNG game that shares a lot of mechanical similarities with that game, IIRC.
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  #10463  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:01 AM
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Yeah, I like that one a lot too. It has a sequel to the TOS episode A Piece of the Action, which is probably my favourite away mission in the game. It's certainly the one that sticks out most in my memory, at any rate!

There was also a fun SNES TNG game that shares a lot of mechanical similarities with that game, IIRC.
I bought that SNES game a few years ago and played it exactly once. Spent a good hour and a half exploring a giant dungeon as part of the first away mission I went on and died, having to start over. I should probably try again after reading the instructions or something.

Geordi and Data having night vision was a nice touch.
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  #10464  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:28 AM
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Data is head and shoulders above anyone else in the SNES game. That makes sense from a flavor perspective, but in practice, you'll never want to leave the inhuman death machine on the bridge when there's danger on the planet.

Which makes you wonder why Data wasn't on literally every away mission on the show, because the same applies there.
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  #10465  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:30 AM
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Data is head and shoulders above anyone else in the SNES game. That makes sense from a flavor perspective, but in practice, you'll never want to leave the inhuman death machine on the bridge when there's danger on the planet.

Which makes you wonder why Data wasn't on literally every away mission on the show, because the same applies there.
Sometimes his head gets blown off and you need to interact with Mark Twain. Risky.
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  #10466  
Old 10-12-2018, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
- I've watched TNG a lot over the years. But never with TOS so fresh in my mind. And it's kinda crazy how I never noticed how much TOS DNA is in this first season. A lot of the music would be right at home in a TOS episode. A lot of the bad directing and writing too. I'm noting a lot of overlap in the writing credits (DC Fontana is here a lot and doing a mixed bag of work). And everything is sexually charged in a Gene Roddenberry way that fits more at home in TOS than the later seasons of TNG.
It makes sense, though. Roddenberry still had a tight hold on the reins at the time, and if the show was cancelled, they'd just package it in syndication with TOS.
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  #10467  
Old 10-12-2018, 01:55 PM
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Which makes you wonder why Data wasn't on literally every away mission on the show, because the same applies there.
I mean, "Data saves the day" is an entire TNG subgenra. Some episodes hand wave him away. The best ones make it part of the plot.

Picard, Troi and even Riker are generally superior diplomats so for a lot of away missions not having Data there makes sense until all hell breaks loose.
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  #10468  
Old 10-13-2018, 12:41 PM
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But if you need someone to play a mad game of craps, you definitely need Data.

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  #10469  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:49 PM
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Practically every review I looked at for Star Trek: 25th Anniversary mentioned that the final combat encounter was way too difficult and oh man it was. I was able to get through it with aggressive save scumming but I'm sure it was a game ender for a lot of people who just wanted a 90s PC adventure game.

It's a 3 on 1 encounter in a system that's closer to the PC simulation side of things than the arcadey side of things, so you're really incredibly screwed. Taking damage to various parts starts to kill those systems, which is extremely good flavor in less difficult battles, but surrounded by 3 ships you're going to take damage, which is going to kill some important systems, which potentially starts a vicious cycle you can't get out of. At least it's literally the last thing in the game, so now you can just look up a longplay on youtube if you just wanted a 90s PC adventure and can't beat it.

A revised version of this game's combat in polygonal 3D instead of scaling sprites and better encounter design balance could honestly be a lot of fun. Their ideas weren't bad, even if the balance of the final battle is incredibly cruel. It's fun to tell Scotty what repairs to prioritize, to ask for emergency power, etc.

The sequel (Judgement Rites) adds a No Combat difficulty mode (and also a Hard Combat mode for space combat sim enthusiasts). But apparently all the mandatory encounters are front loaded and a lot easier so I think I'll just keep it on normal...

To answer my question earlier: There are game overs in the adventure game portions, through both death traps and timers. So it's a good idea to save frequently, and you can theoretically get stuck if your only save is immediately before someone is about to die of an illness or immediately before the atmosphere is no longer breathable. But, because it's episodic, as long as you remember to leave a save to return to near the beginning of an episode it's not that big of a deal if you get stuck.

There's is definitely a little bit of comedic jankiness. I had a situation where Harry Mudd was both unconscious in the med-bay and also simultaneously still in another room rummaging for salvageable goods, for example.

Still fun though. Star Trek is extremely good theming for this genre of game. (Even if the solution for a kind of funny number of situations is just Use Spock On Object. Thematically accurate, at least!)
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  #10470  
Old Yesterday, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by estragon View Post
Practically every review I looked at for Star Trek: 25th Anniversary mentioned that the final combat encounter was way too difficult and oh man it was. I was able to get through it with aggressive save scumming but I'm sure it was a game ender for a lot of people who just wanted a 90s PC adventure game.
A no-win situation is a possibility every commander may face. How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?
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