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  #691  
Old 06-27-2017, 12:05 PM
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Bioshock didn't make my list, but it was one of the first games of that console generation that I played through. As I hadn't so much as heard of System Shock 2, it delivered the promised revelation.

Majora's Mask also didn't make my list. I was one of those haters at first, because strict time limits in games really stress me out - meshing the exploration-focused feel of Zelda with a need to hurry rubbed me the wrong way. To this day it's still one of the few mainline Zeldas I haven't completed, but at some point I intend to correct that, and I think I'll enjoy it far more than I did on that first outing.
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  #692  
Old 06-27-2017, 12:23 PM
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majora's mask is probably my favorite game that didn't make my list. it did a lot to pioneer a concept which i love dearly, so even if it's not my favorite example i respect it a lot. plus the mood and setting are super good; i guess my biggest problem is just that i haven't had much motivation to go back to it after the time i got all the masks. which is kind of an unfair thing to hold against it, but i don't really like the snow dungeon or the final one that much i guess
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  #693  
Old 06-27-2017, 12:30 PM
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Imagine if every 3D Zelda game was quickly followed by a creative spinoff using exiting assets...

Majora's Mask sits pretty at number 10 for me. For a long time this was the Zelda game I returned to the most. It's also a game where I can go "did I tell you I used to be really into speedruns for a hot minute?". Rudimentary ones, but it feels proud to do it all the same. Even when you stop, for a time afterwards it remains especially enjoyable when you would have a route through the game that you hadn't forgotten yet and would slide back into on replays. I think everyone has a few games like that.

Zelda is such a big favorite to a lot of people that it feels awkward and elementary trying to explain in detail. Even the individual games don't always get very deep treatments. Majora's Mask has unique tone and pretty good storytelling, but I think it undersells the rest of the game to describe why the game is good with these half dozen words and then stop there.

I want to offer that Majora's Mask "gets to the point" quicker than most 3D Zeldas (not referring to the opening quest, but rather the pacing at any point in the middle of the game). When the game is fresh in your mind and you just want to play straight through another time, the enjoyment comes promptly. I think it is because the game structures it's 4 major areas like an extended dungeon with meaningful exploration, sub locations and combat encounters just to reach the dungeon. The series's staple overworld quests are integrated into the culminating experience of peeling back the frontier in each major area.

In Ocarina of Time, the non-dungeon quests once you reach Hyrule field start out like this: get Zelda's Lullaby, get Saria's Song, probably play the Gravedigger gamer for the Hylian Shield, possibly mess with rolling Gorons and spinning Goron vases, go diving in Zora's Domain... If you imagine these locations on the game world, the space connecting them isn't that interesting to traverse and conquer. I think this is the game where people started saying lines like "I love me some Zelda but any time I'm not in a dungeon I'm wondering when I'm going to get there." I would diverge with these strong statements (and would have loved to vote for OoT alongside MM), but I'm offering this subject as what Majora's Mask does better than it's predecessor and next few successors.
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  #694  
Old 06-27-2017, 02:42 PM
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I was wondering where Bioshock'd end up. It was my #9 ; I docked it lots of points for it's pacing, which just drags on and on and on especially at the end of the game, but also during some silly fetch quests early on. But I really love the points it was making and the fact that it really is not a message that could be effectively given in any other medium. Also it's hella fun.


(Infinite, meanwhile, deserves all the shit it gets for the "what if the oppressed... gained power and became the oppressor????" narrative it pushes. I wanted to believe it was a mistake but no, a review I read states it's intentional and devalues what I already felt to be a fairly mediocre plot. The non-political parts are pretty decent but I feel the rest of the game kind of runs counter to any message that part might try to being across)
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  #695  
Old 06-27-2017, 02:54 PM
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Bioshock is fun, but it's so similar to System Shock 2 in so many ways, that it's not that exciting or interesting to me. It's still a really fun game with good atmosphere, and it plays (mostly) clever tricks with its game mechanics.

I feel like there's something missed by removing all the stat/skill building aspects from System Shock 2, though. Especially because the way that works in SS2, things like hacking and modding weapons become more valuable by the end of the game. Bioshock's pipe dream minigame just gets worse as you play it, and there's less choice in weapon modding and other customization bits. So I feel like it's only really worth one play through.

I've probably played System Shock 2 more than 10 times, because there are so many different combinations of skills and stats to build your character to beat the game. Even if there's one easiest/best way, it's not the only way. Bioshock didn't feel like it gave me any game-altering options like that.

Also, Bioshock at least popularized the "kill the baby/save the baby" choices with the Little Sisters. So give it credit for making System Shock 2's superior gameplay better known, but give it fault for making one of the poorest ideas for a "player choice" in games to get copied everywhere.
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  #696  
Old 06-27-2017, 04:14 PM
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Majora's Mask was my #9. It's a brilliant, creative game, and it's maybe my favourite Zelda (it's locked a perpetual three-way tie with LttP and LA).

One of the things I like best is how it plays against one's knowledge of Ocarina of Time. Adrenaline already mentioned how it reuses assets in strange ways, but it goes further, into the very landscapes and societies of the world. Like how the first area of the game is a swamp instead of a forest, and how the Deku go from nomadic forest critters to running a sophisticated and civilized kingdom.

Another thing I like is that MM feels like it carries forward the 2D Zelda design ethos in some ways. MM's overworld is small and densely-packed with new environs and secrets in a way that reminds me more of LttP's Hyrule than OoT's; similarly, the boss fights play out more like frenzied damage races instead of hitting a designated spot to leave the boss vulnerable to actual damage. With every succeeding game patterning itself off of OoT, these design quirks make MM stand out even now.
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  #697  
Old 06-27-2017, 04:24 PM
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I like Bioshock and Majora's Mask (the latter on the 3DS more than the N64 original) a lot, but not enough to plop them on my list. Both great games, though.
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  #698  
Old 06-27-2017, 04:24 PM
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Majora's Mask is my #2. It's handily the best Zelda game and one of the greatest games of all time.
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  #699  
Old 06-27-2017, 05:11 PM
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Once, many years ago, I was waiting at the corner for the light to change when I saw something odd in a garbage can. It turned out to be the complete Majora's Mask soundtrack collection.

That is not a commentary on the music, nor is it an exaggeration. Bizarrely, it was all intact, and it wasn't a bootleg. I still own it to this day.





That is the extent of my experience with Majora's Mask.
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  #700  
Old 06-27-2017, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Büge View Post
Bizarrely, it was all intact, and it wasn't a bootleg.
Hmmm. I can see the SonMay logo on the disc, so I'm afraid that the odds are that it is a bootleg.
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  #701  
Old 06-27-2017, 05:16 PM
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I have the Majora's Mask soundtrack and the messenger bag from Club Nintendo.

I have never played Majora's Mask. I don't own a copy, not even the 3DS version.
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  #702  
Old 06-27-2017, 05:18 PM
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My first encounter with Majora's Mask was when I bought it for the 3DS.

I have never put the cart into my 3DS.

That's all I got.

I enjoyed Bioshock for what it was. A popular FPS with interesting and odd guns with a twist you can see coming a mile away and the only version of Pipes I've ever played repeatedly.
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  #703  
Old 06-27-2017, 05:25 PM
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Played Majora once and couldn't figure out how to save. Decided to just play Link's Awakening again.
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  #704  
Old 06-27-2017, 08:45 PM
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Majora's Mask is a good game. It is also the worst 3D Zelda. I am not surprised to see on the list, but it didn't sniff mine.

Bioshock was on my shortlist, but I dropped it by the end. So far the last 10 or so games I left off my list have made a much better showing on the list than the games that did make it.
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  #705  
Old 06-27-2017, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westerhof View Post
Hmmm. I can see the SonMay logo on the disc, so I'm afraid that the odds are that it is a bootleg.
oh.

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  #706  
Old 06-28-2017, 05:36 AM
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I tried Bioshock recently, because I was looking for a game with a good story and heard it has one. But in reality it just felt like a shooter with hardly any story, so I was pretty disappointed and quit rather fast (I really don't like FPS). I'd really like to have something like Bioshock but mostly without combat. Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs got closer to what I was looking for.

I never really played a Zelda game, I have some strange unexplained disinterest towards the series. When I was a child, I was just like "There's only one party member and no separate combat screen? What a lame RPG." and that simply changed to "I don't like Zelda" eventually without ever playing it.
A while ago I felt like giving Zelda another chance and everybody hyped Breath of the Wild at that time, but then I read that it's open world and lost interest immediately due to being overfed with open world.
Majora's Mask sounds interesting, but at the same time I really really dislike games where time progresses in real time, so interest immediately lost again.
It's like Zelda always tries to add something I hate so I don't get tempted to give it a try, heh!

There's one Zelda clone I really like and that's Anodyne, though.
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  #707  
Old 06-28-2017, 08:11 AM
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#16


Steel thy shovel!

Developers: Yacht Club Games
Publishers: Yacht Club Games
Platforms: Windows, Nintendo 3DS, Nintendo Wii U, OSX, Linux, Playstation 3,
Playstation 4, Playstation Vita, XBox One, Amazon Fire TV, Nintendo Switch
Release: June 26, 2014 (NA), November 5, 2014 (EU), June 30, 2016 (JP)
266 Points, 13 Votes, Highest Rank: #1 (Octopus Prime)




Retro indie games have been a thing since Cave Story, but they really got a boost from Mega Man 9. It is fitting, then, that most of Shovel Kinght's DNA is from Mega Man, though there's also plenty of Castlevania, Duck Tales, Mario, Zelda II and even a little bit of Dark Souls.

One would think, being such a mish-mash, that Shovel Knight would be kind of a mess. Instead, Yacht Club melded all these influences into a coherent package that, arguably, stands head-and-shoulders above every other indie platformer out there. It really is hard to find many faults in the game. In fact, the finicky Propeller Knight stage is the only thing I can think of that could be a legit quibble. The game is extremely difficult, sure, especially toward the end, but it's almost always fair. If you die you don't start too far back (unless you're doing a challenge run and destroying those checkpoints). In fact, it's a lot more forgiving than many of the old games to which it pays homage, and pay homage it does.

Shovel Knight does feel like a game that could have existed had Nintendo made a console between the NES and SNES. It hits all the right notes both aesthetically and through gameplay without being too beholden to the strictures of the 8 Bit era, so it hits that sweet spot between old-timey and modern game design. I really don't think it too untoward to call Shovel Knight a masterpiece, and it is certainly one of the finest games to come out this decade.

Let's hear it from Octo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopus Prime
As with most people TTers, and most people I've met for that matter, the early Mega Man titles were among my favorite games when I was tiny-years-old and while many of the sequels were pretty darn good none managed to quite trigger the same Mental Fun Zones as they did when I was a kid. And then Shovel Knight came out. And I was enamored. Not only did Shovel Knight manage to perfectly fit in to the same emotional core as the best of the Mega Man series, it also blended in the DNA of just about every other NES platformer I loved as a kid and adult. The summer Shovel Knight came out, I not only finished it within a couple of days, I immediately restarted it and played through it over and over again, My first purchase on the Switch wasn't Zelda, it was yet another port of Shovel Knight just so I wouldn't have to wait for the DLC it included.

Until 2014, I didn't think anything would ever rival Mega Man X or Super Metroid for being my favorite game of all time. And now I have to stop and debate the matter.
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Last edited by Issun; 06-28-2017 at 09:22 AM.
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  #708  
Old 06-28-2017, 08:13 AM
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#15


Whoa, that's freaky. Something about a nose that long…

Developer: Atlus
Publisher: Atlus
Platforms: Playstation 2
Release: July 10, 2008 (JP), December 9, 2008 (NA), March 12, 2009 (AU), March 13, 2009 (EU)
269 Points, 10 Votes, Highest Rank: #2 (WildcatJF,
Grignr, Positronic Brain)




Are you surprised this isn't in the top 10? I am!

Persona 4 seems to be the most popular game in the Shin Megami Tensei family of games. Hot on the heels of the popularity of the third Persona game, fans were itching for more and Atlus gave it to them.

A lot of the game is refinements of Persona 3. The interface is still more user-friendly than most Megaten games, but the battle system was given more depth. The Social Aspect is also much more involved, with the main character maintaining relationships with entire groups instead of individual characters.

Persona 4 also eschews the city setting for a more rural one, and this time transports the character into a "TV World" for dungeon and battle times, rather than Tartarus.

On the whole, the debate on P3 vs. P4 continues to rage on nearly a decade later, and now P5 has added to the discussion. Talking Time, it seems, has spoken, though. Where 3 topped SMT in the JRPG list, this group has put 4 in front.

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  #709  
Old 06-28-2017, 08:17 AM
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STRIKE THE EARTH
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  #710  
Old 06-28-2017, 08:39 AM
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FOR SHOVELRY!
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  #711  
Old 06-28-2017, 08:43 AM
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Shameful confession: I still haven't finished Shovel Knight yet. Something must be wrong with me.

Something tells me Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter didn't rank above Persona 4...
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  #712  
Old 06-28-2017, 08:59 AM
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I finished Shovel Knight and liked it! It's not my favorite platformer of this century, though. I'd put it on like place... 60-70?

Never played Persona 4. I was quite disappointed in how bad P3 was (except OST) and I wanted to give the series another try so I asked on TT if I should give P4 a try, listing the things I didn't like about P3 (randomly generated, boring dungeons, time limit, doing the same stuff like drinking coffee every day to increase stats), but the unified opinion here was that I should NOT give it a try. I might give P5 a try, though, but I'll wait until it becomes significantly cheaper.
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  #713  
Old 06-28-2017, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breakman View Post
Shameful confession: I still haven't finished Shovel Knight yet. Something must be wrong with me.

Something tells me Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter didn't rank above Persona 4...
i tried

well, sorta. i guess it ended up lower on my list this time than on the jrpg list, but it also wasn't possible for me to put it higher

Last edited by spineshark; 06-28-2017 at 10:04 AM.
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  #714  
Old 06-28-2017, 09:33 AM
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Default Life at 60 FPS: Talking Time's Top 50 Games of the 21st Century

Persona 5 continues the gameplay improvements of P4 but I still enjoyed playing P4 more. Personas 3 and 5 just have an oppressive mood that makes me dread getting to certain events. The smaller stakes of Persona 4 and the motivation to go save people from the dungeons (and as soon as possible) push me to keep playing.

Persona 4 is the only RPG I've ever beaten all the way through twice (OG PS2 and Golden). I liked the card picking game from the PS2 version better than the nerfed version in P4G, but otherwise Golden is best.

Persona 5 probably has the best soundtrack though.
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  #715  
Old 06-28-2017, 09:50 AM
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I voted for P4 and not P3, but really I'm not sure which I preferred. Didn't vote for Shovel Knight but it is very good.

I'm still holding out hope for Dragon Quarter.
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  #716  
Old 06-28-2017, 10:37 AM
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Shovel Knight is a fantastic, fun game with a lot of interesting bits in it. Plus, they keep adding free games to the original package (come on, don't tell me you waited until Treasure Trove came out to buy a copy)

I guess you guys are still playing anime.
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  #717  
Old 06-28-2017, 10:47 AM
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Majora's Mask is effortlessly the best Zelda. I love games where the world continues to exist and change beyond the player's immediate control, and it has one of the best implementations of that, combined with its palpable doomsday scenario. I've never found dungeons in Zelda to be conceptually very interesting either, but Majora's Mask 1) has less of them 2) gives them all a strong overlapping macro-level design which really works. It's the best example of recycled assets being turned into a strength through the sheer weight of recontextualization.

I loathe Persona 4! It will always be beloved, but I can't contribute to that.
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  #718  
Old 06-28-2017, 10:55 AM
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who's your favorite character in p4 mine's chie
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  #719  
Old 06-28-2017, 11:08 AM
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Shovel Knight is pretty good, and I can really appreciate its craft, but I was never taken with it the way others are. The expansions, though, are superb, and feature some devilishly tricky platforming.

As for Persona 4… well, they say "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."
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  #720  
Old 06-28-2017, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breakman View Post
Shameful confession: I still haven't finished Shovel Knight yet. Something must be wrong with me.
Same, though I only started playing it for the first time a few weeks ago. It's good! Almost made my list anyway.
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