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  #241  
Old 06-13-2017, 10:01 AM
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#42


Say goodbye to ya kneecaps, chucklehead!

Developer: Valve Corporation
Publisher: Valve Corporation
Platforms: Windows, XBox 360, Playstation 3, OS X, Linux
Release: October 10, 2007
140 Points, 7 Votes, Highest Rank: #3 (ajr82)




The idea of dividing roles between players in TvT shooters had been around long before Team Fortress 2, but no game to that point had done it so well, giving players such a range of choices and balance. You need offense, like a Scout or Pyro. Defense involves classes like Heavy and Engineer. And of course you need support, such as a Medic and/or Spy. The basic FPS gameplay is not that different from Call of Duty/Battlefield/what have you. What is different is that the jobs are so specialized that you need people to pick different jobs in order for your team to have any success.

The other addition was the sheer personality each class has. The wisecracking Scout, the big Russian Heavy, the creepy Medic and the happy Kiwi sniper, to name a few. Jobs' personalities and designs might have influenced what one decided to specialize in as much as play style.

TF2's influence can be felt today, with Blizzard's Overwatch being the most obvious example. And people still play it, though the fact that it is free to play on Steam might be part of it. Definitely not all of it though, because even ten years later, the main reason people are still playing is because, with the right group, it is a damn good time.

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  #242  
Old 06-13-2017, 10:04 AM
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#41

Hmph. I daresay I've soiled my cuffs. If a dungeon's waiting for us at the end of the night, it had best have a change of wardrobe.

Developer: Square Enix
Publisher: Square Enix
Platforms: Playstation 2
Release: March 16, 2006 (JP), October 31, 2006 (NA), February 22, 2007 (AU),
February 23, 2007 (EU)
142 Points, 6 Votes, Highest Rank: #1 (Kirin)




*sigh* Yes, Final Fantasy XII really is this low. Funny how differently these lists turn out, huh?

If the stories about Matsuno's departure are to be believed, this game was the very definition of development hell. What would have happened had its auteur stayed, who knows. What we did get was a game long on gameplay and short on story. Oh, what there is is pretty good, certainly more coherent than Tactic's mess. The problem is the story of political intrigue and family fallout suddenly takes a hiatus for a good third of the game.

Fortunately the battle system picks up the slack. Squenix learned a thing or two about MMO style battling with FFXI, and they applied it well to single player. Using gambits to queue actions by importance to the player left them able to manage three characters at once with ease. This also lead to people complaining that the game "plays itself without you", but you can't please everybody.

Nowadays XII, like VIII before it, gets lost in the shuffle of public opinion, with the more well-remembered X, XIII and XIV getting most of the notice. But now it's getting a re-release on PS4, so a whole new generation of players will get to experience one of the finest RPGs of the millennium.

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  #243  
Old 06-13-2017, 10:13 AM
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To hear people talk about it, it sounds like the version of FF12 worth playing (for now) is one that was available only in Japan that did something or other with the game's job system. I don't know too much about FF12, but what I saw about it didn't really catch my fance. Not huge on MMO-style gameplay, frankly.
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  #244  
Old 06-13-2017, 10:46 AM
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Final Fantasy XII was the game that finally cured me of a life-time of completionism with its unfair, inscrutable bullshit, for which I will always be grateful.
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  #245  
Old 06-13-2017, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBear View Post
Final Fantasy XII was the game that finally cured me of a life-time of completionism with its unfair, inscrutable bullshit, for which I will always be grateful.
X did that for me.
"Dodge how many lightning strikes?
Oh no, good sir. FUCK YOU."
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  #246  
Old 06-13-2017, 11:42 AM
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I thought the shine had worn off TF2 by now but I guess not. It's a really fun game.
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  #247  
Old 06-13-2017, 11:44 AM
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I do not like FFXII, but my friend has expressed intent to buy the Zodiac Age remaster thingy, so I will be around to watch that and see if it changes anything I care about.
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  #248  
Old 06-13-2017, 11:45 AM
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Team Fortress 2 was a wonderful game, although time (ie, Valve) hasn't been kind to it. In its original incarnation, though, it was tight, fun and silly. And when they added Mann vs. Machine, I went back and gave it another 10-15 hours. Definitely one of the best games of the last 17 years, although also something of a cautionary tale for how incremental changes can eventually make a mess out of even the best games.

Final Fantasy XII is not a game that I like. I was considering trying the HD remake, since it includes the International job system stuff, but that plan went out the window when they didn't announce a portable version. Maybe if it ever comes to the Switch.

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Originally Posted by Positronic Brain View Post
I've played a bit of EO - the series never really took off in Europe, so I started with II instead of I - and I've always quit because there comes a point where the difficulty gets to me. It's a hard game, and requires lots of work to get through. It is rewarding, but I like my games being a little more... breakable.
IMO, Etrian Odyssey II is the hardest, meanest game in the series. The original game is tough, but all the character classes are useful (except maybe the ones you unlock later in the game) and EOs III and IV are both significantly easier - though I wouldn't go so far as to call them easy. Still, if the difficulty is what put you off, pretty much any other entry in the series will treat you better.

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Originally Posted by Daikaiju View Post
X did that for me.
"Dodge how many lightning strikes?
Oh no, good sir. FUCK YOU."
Man, that's nothing compared to the pain of mastering the goddamn butterfly course or the monotony of winning a billion games of blitzball. The one time that I cleaned out the monster arena in FFX, I managed to get the 200 lightning strikes on like my second try. Not that I'm in a huge rush to do it again...
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  #249  
Old 06-13-2017, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MCBanjoMike View Post
Man, that's nothing compared to the pain of mastering the goddamn butterfly course or the monotony of winning a billion games of blitzball. The one time that I cleaned out the monster arena in FFX, I managed to get the 200 lightning strikes on like my second try. Not that I'm in a huge rush to do it again...
Never had a problem with either of those. I ground up my original Aurochs team to be tiny gods, and found the butterflies so easy that I barely even remember it, but dodging that lightning took me for-fucking-ever.

I even remember that when I was raging about FFXII, I said "I put in my time, I dodged my 200 lightning bolts-- I'm done."
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  #250  
Old 06-13-2017, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Issun View Post
What we did get was a game long on gameplay and short on story. Oh, what there is is pretty good, certainly more coherent than Tactic's mess.
What's incoherent about Tactics?

I passed over XII on its release, which is something I've come to regret over the years. I'm excited to play the remaster.
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  #251  
Old 06-13-2017, 11:56 AM
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Ah, yes Final Fantasy XII. I put Final Fantasy 11 on the top of my list. I did that because I've played it more time than any other game and because I doubt it would make the list anyways (which is why I bring it up). When I heard that XII is like a single player version of 11, I bought the collector's edition and picked it up at a midnight launch. I play it for a few hours and then typically give up on it. I really want to like it, but I always find myself wanting to play something else after my first gaming session.

I actually found that I much preferred the way FF XIII takes away control by letting me manage the larger flow of shifting between offensive or defensive configurations that are mostly written for me.

I did like the license grid ok. I don't find it quite as satisfying as the sphere grid or the crysarium. I know that seems stupid, but lighting up the nodes makes me feel like I'm progressing.

The Ivalice setting didn't do anything particularly for me. I had played FFTA and really enjoyed it, but not because it had bunny girls in it and that's about all those two games have in common.

So, TL;DR, I should like 12 and I want to like 12 but for some reason I don't like 12 and I don't know why.

Edit: TF2. I got it with the Orange Box. It really is all about how fun the roles are and how different they play. I still suck at shooters so its not really fun to play for me because I'm constantly letting my team down. the big difference for me is like this. If you're playing Halo and you suck, the other team will get the sniper rifle or whatever and then kill you with it and you will continue to suck and loose. In TF2 (and overwatch) if your team is struggling and its partly because you suck, you can at least switch jobs to say a medic and contribute in a different way. Or a demo that can do fun trick shots. Or you could be and engineer and just build turrets so you don't have to shoot stuff. If your team is struggling because the other team has a really good player of a certain role, then you can change your team composition to try and counter that role.

Last edited by Taeryn; 06-13-2017 at 12:07 PM.
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  #252  
Old 06-13-2017, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conchobhar View Post
What's incoherent about Tactics?
I've never played WotL so I don't know if maybe it was cleaned up but in the PSX version it wasn't always clear who was doing what and for what reason.
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  #253  
Old 06-13-2017, 12:27 PM
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I've dumped nearly a thousand hours into TF2 over the last decade. Even though it's a much different beast in 2017 than it was in 2007, on a good server with friendly players it's still one of the most fulfilling multiplayer experiences available.

Really need to try Overwatch at some point.
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  #254  
Old 06-13-2017, 12:35 PM
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I don't even know what Team Fortress 2 is.

And the only FF games I'd ever consider to put on a toplist are VI and VII.

FFXII really just wasn't for me. No separate battle system screen, open world, boring large areas with nothing in them, pointless side quests, having to decide for builds yourself, no direct control over other characters... I finished FFIV, FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX and FFX and FFX-2 but FFXII finally managed to make me quit before finishing it.

On the other hand FFXIII is basically what I want from an FF title, even though it's still not good enough to be put on a toplist. Too bad it wasn't received well, so SquareEnix went back to open world design, which effectively killed the series for me (didn't buy any titles after FFXIII-2).
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  #255  
Old 06-13-2017, 12:40 PM
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As you might guess by the fact that I voted it #1, I really really like FFXII.

I love programming my party (though I do wish more interesting gambits were available sooner, a problem which I hear Zodiac Age addresses). I love the characters. I love Ivalice. I love the fantastic localization/script, complete with bad Tactics translation easter eggs. I love the insanely detailed (but completely optional) lore in the fantastic bestiary. I even love the barely-holds-together story (hey, it holds together a lot better than XIII, though that's saying approximately nothing). Pretty much the only thing in the game I don't love is randomly-appearing random-rare-item-having treasure chests that are sometimes invisible. Those are some bullshit.

I have to admit I never actually bothered chipping my way all the way through Yiazmat's ridiculous HP pool. I did, however, build myself a Tournesol sword, which is arguably even more insane as it requires dozen of drops from rare enemies fed into the arcane bazaar system. I can't say I recommend doing that, but it sure is shiny. And I was hunting down every last rare enemy with weird appearance conditions anyway in order to fill out the aforementioned excellent bestiary. The game is just a joy to play for me.
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  #256  
Old 06-13-2017, 12:41 PM
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Let's spin this broken record again!

I haven't played Team Fortress 2 or Final Fantasy XII!

I mostly know TF2 from memes and stuff. I've always wanted to experience it, but multiplayer FPS is generally not my jam. I love the character designs. I kinda think they've only gotten better as we progress further and further into the age of the Gritty Jaw Man.

I have not played a Final Fantasy past IX. Is XII the one that's basically a long corridor, and the battle system kinda plays itself?
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  #257  
Old 06-13-2017, 12:44 PM
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I love everything about FFXII but not enough to vote for it.

0 for 10!
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  #258  
Old 06-13-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Sensible View Post
I've dumped nearly a thousand hours into TF2 over the last decade. Even though it's a much different beast in 2017 than it was in 2007, on a good server with friendly players it's still one of the most fulfilling multiplayer experiences available.

Really need to try Overwatch at some point.
This is basically me. The month between graduating law school and moving back home was basically nothing but me packing up my apartment and playing TF2. It's still the only game I've had to uninstall because it was taking up too much of my time.
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  #259  
Old 06-13-2017, 12:49 PM
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Team Fortress 2 was an interesting, well-balanced game with a great design based on silhouettes and being able to use knowledge of the various classes to form strategies and counters for most situations. What I'm getting at is that Overwatch will never have Equipment and it will be much better for it.

Final Fantasy XII was the first main-line FF that I had no interest in, and I'm not sure if I'd be willing to put the time in these days to learn to appreciate it. At least it's not in bad company given every FF since that has been the subsequent FF that I've had no interest in.
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  #260  
Old 06-13-2017, 12:50 PM
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TF2 is also the only game I've ever dropped serious money into via microtransactions, and I've never felt guilty about that because I've gotten so much enjoyment from the game over these many years.

And I'd pay even more for a stripped-down version of TF2 that excises most of the new weapons that have been added piecemeal over the last decade.
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  #261  
Old 06-13-2017, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
I have not played a Final Fantasy past IX. Is XII the one that's basically a long corridor, and the battle system kinda plays itself?
No, that's FFXIII. FFXII is the MMORPG without online functionality and you can code the AI of your party members yourself.
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  #262  
Old 06-13-2017, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conchobhar View Post
What's incoherent about Tactics?
The translation, occasionally.

I've never player TF2.

FFXII was 9th on my list. It was the first FF game I played when it was new and I loved every second of it. The best world in the series.
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  #263  
Old 06-13-2017, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeryn View Post
I actually found that I much preferred the way FF XIII takes away control by letting me manage the larger flow of shifting between offensive or defensive configurations that are mostly written for me.
Thanks for bringing this up because I've discovered I feel the same way. A lot of FFXIII's AI is built-in gambits, like hitting enemies with their weakness and doing AoE attacks if it's a bunch of things together. Maybe if XII featured slightly more abstracted Gambits (eg. instead of "Weakness: Fire" it was a generic "Weakness to Element") I would like the battle system more.
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  #264  
Old 06-13-2017, 01:10 PM
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Boy I liked TF2 back before it became a mess of maximal design. When you knew what someone could do based on who they were playing.

The first round of new weapons didn't really kill things, but after that. Eh.
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  #265  
Old 06-13-2017, 01:11 PM
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FFXII is such a beautiful game. I really dig the style, and I like the gameplay quite a bit too. It just hits the spot for me.
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  #266  
Old 06-13-2017, 01:23 PM
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Final Fantasy XII has some of the strongest NPC writing in the series. It's not the only metric to judge it by, but it is one very important to me. Every part of its world is a treasure. Just, dear me, that bestiary.
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  #267  
Old 06-13-2017, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destil View Post
Boy I liked TF2 back before it became a mess of maximal design. When you knew what someone could do based on who they were playing.

The first round of new weapons didn't really kill things, but after that. Eh.
I'd be fine with a version of TF2 keeps the first set of newer class-specific weapons. Stuff like the Ubersaw, the Huntsman and the Wrangler added just enough wrinkles to the overall strategy of the game to keep things interesting without obsoleting the default set of weapons. Unfortunately as the years went on, Valve kept adding increasingly esoteric weapons, and eventually it just became too much to keep track of.
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  #268  
Old 06-13-2017, 01:36 PM
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Yep. Every class got pretty much one good weapon in addition to their default (maybe not the Solider), the first batch were all pretty good and gave some play-style variety without breaking out of what any given class could do too much. Huntsman, Force-A-Nature, Backburner.

After that? Ugh.
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  #269  
Old 06-13-2017, 01:55 PM
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Also TC_Hydro was a fine TF2 map/mode that never got the respect it deserved. 2017 is the year Valve finally releases a second Territorial Control map, I'm 100% sure of it.
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  #270  
Old 06-13-2017, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCBanjoMike View Post
Man, that's nothing compared to the pain of mastering the goddamn butterfly course or the monotony of winning a billion games of blitzball. The one time that I cleaned out the monster arena in FFX, I managed to get the 200 lightning strikes on like my second try. Not that I'm in a huge rush to do it again...
Oh I concur. The lighting was just the tip of the iceberg.
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