To Infinity and Beyond: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Ostrich]

I felt like Thunderbolts was one of the better Marvel movies, and it would have easily fit in with anything in Phase 3. To each their own though.

I'll walk it back a little and say I did enjoy it more than most recent Marvel projects (though Wonder Man was a lot of fun, which I'm surprised no one here has commented on, so I might be wrong on how good it was) I wonder how my perception of Thunderbolts would be had it premiered during Phase 3, when it wasn't surrounded by the oversaturated superhero genre? The team dynamic made for some enjoyable comedy, which I always appreciate.

In the middle of that, Fantastic Four was definitely great in my mind. The aesthetic was fun, but it did have a few parts that dragged. It ultimately left me cautiously optimistic for what comes next.

 

[Vaeran]

(though Wonder Man was a lot of fun, which I'm surprised no one here has commented on, so I might be wrong on how good it was)

I've heard great things about Wonder Man, but I let my Disney+ subscription lapse because I couldn't justify the ongoing expense. I'm going to resub in a couple weeks to catch Daredevil S2, and I'll watch Wonder Man before I turn it off again.

 

[BEAT]

I made it to the flashback black and white episode of wonder man and closed the video on pure instinct when I got to the part where doorman was hocking laxitives.

I sort of thought I'd begrudgingly go back and finish it but I never did.

 

[gogglebob]

The black and white episode of Wonder Man was, like, pure indulgence. That was something that should have been a cold open that lasted ten minutes, but, no, it was a whole hour (or whatever), and I cannot shake the feeling that it became that entirely because they got the Josh Gad of Spaceballs 2. And, yes, it's objective, but that episode felt like there was literally no reason for that indulgence. Could have been an email.

I made the comment in my review of The Substance on these forums that I am inordinately tired of movies about making movies, because I have been seeing "winking" Hollywood productions talking about the difficulties of showbusiness going back to.... heck... Tiny Toon Adventures. Similarly, I do not think we need another "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been" metaphor for 50's Hollywood and the communist scare/House of Un-American Activities Committee harassment. That was horrible, but it's been done to death, particularly when it usually boils down to "people will rat out other people to get ahead", which is something that appears in every profession on Earth. And, yes, if you have not seen Wonder Man, that is what the whole story boils down to: Hollywood is terrible and soul-crushing even if you manage to be successful, and the government can and will exploit people to selfish/political ends. It is, overall, a story that you've seen before, and one that has a pretty obvious arc from about the second episode.

That said, it is a Marvel show actually about something other the Marvel Universe itself (see Marvel Zombies or Iron Heart), and the main stars are fun to watch. I found some of the Hollywood archetypes a little exhausting (Von Kovak, the kooky but genius director, made me want to watch something else every single time he opened his mouth) (and I could not tell you a single thing about Simon's agent, who is ostensibly important and appears multiple times, but her whole deal is just "is an agent"), but I overall liked what was happening. Also, while there is a clear villain, it doesn't end with people flying around punching each other and shooting energy beams for supremacy. That's cool!

Anyway, I'd say Wonder Man is one of those Marvel shows you actually could watch for a reason other than "MCU homework". It's fun, and doesn't feel like it exists only to set up the next franchise. It is a little too up its own butt about Hollywood, but if that does not bother you, give it a watch.


FAKE EDIT TO ADD: I could write another thousand words about it, but technically I think we can stand to be reminded of HUAC in our modern political era. That said, Disney and the MCU are not the ones to do it, because they stuck "The Mandarin" right there in the show, and every second he is on screen reminds me of how much that particular plot thread in the MCU makes me want to tear this "cinematic universe" to pieces.

 

[Kazin]

I'll walk it back a little

Meanwhile, I'll happily double down. A few hours after watching Thunderbolts my wife and I watched David Lynch's The Straight Story for the first time which is about a man driving a couple hundred miles on his lawnmower from Iowa to Wisconsin. We had a great time with it and even still I'd rank it pretty low compared to Lynch's other work. Still, that movie was far more engaging and interesting than suphero slop #57 because it had heart and a point. I understand Thunderbolts had some light commentary about depression and while I wholeheartedly welcome that, it felt shoehorned in at best to me. Sure, it was better than the Red Hulk movie, but that is a very low bar to clear.

Yes, comparing auteur driven work like Lynch's to a late era Marvel superhero film is unfair to Thunderbolts. But it was startling to go from one to the other - pretty much reinforcing that I should probably just move on from comic book movies.

 

[Patrick]

Yes, comparing auteur driven work like Lynch's to a late era Marvel superhero film is unfair to Thunderbolts.

Uh, yeah. Nothing Marvel has ever done compares to Lynch's body of work, nor did anyone else in this thread make that comparison. Why would you expect a Marvel movie to meet that extremely high bar?

 

[Kazin]

Uh, yeah. Nothing Marvel has ever done compares to Lynch's body of work, nor did anyone else in this thread make that comparison. Why would you expect a Marvel movie to meet that extremely high bar?

I don't expect it to meet Lynch's work, but it sure would be nice if Marvel films had any ambition at all to them beyond cgi spectacle. Logan, for example, was a comic book movie that had ambition to tell a story beyond spectacle - it had meditations on aging, nostalgia, hell, taking care of dying parental figures, even. It, too, pales in comparison to auteur driven stuff like Lynch's work, but blows anything Marvel has done for years and years away.

 

[Patrick]

Leading up to Endgame, I remember feeling like "maybe I should check some of these comics out, I really like these movies" and now i just don't think I want to read any comic book. Bleh

Yes, comparing auteur driven work like Lynch's to a late era Marvel superhero film is unfair to Thunderbolts. But it was startling to go from one to the other - pretty much reinforcing that I should probably just move on from comic book movies.

I don't expect it to meet Lynch's work, but it sure would be nice if Marvel films had any ambition at all to them beyond cgi spectacle. Logan, for example, was a comic book movie that had ambition to tell a story beyond spectacle - it had meditations on aging, nostalgia, hell, taking care of dying parental figures, even. It, too, pales in comparison to auteur driven stuff like Lynch's work, but blows anything Marvel has done for years and years away.

Talk about moving goal posts! Look, if you don't want what Marvel is selling, that's completely fine. They are popcorn fluff, they are largely spectacle, and they are formulaic. Please, by all means, watch better movies. But I'll push back on the idea that the idea that the Marvel movies before Endgame were significantly different. Were Doctor Strange, Captain Marvel, etc. doing the same kinds of things as Logan or did they do anything that invites comparison to David Lynch? Black Panther had a deeper message (though again, it was still very formulaic and spectacle driven), but generally the best Marvel movies were the ones that did the most with the existing formula. There was a good stretch where they didn't have many duds, but those movies were still operating in the same basic mold as everything from Iron Man through Fantastic 4.

 

[Kazin]

@Patrick Well, that is why I said I'd "double down" as I didn't originally say anything about other non-Marvel movies before that post! And if it frustrated you, you know, fair enough. However, I would say that a good chunk of the movies prior to Endgame *did* have ambitions beyond pure spectacle - whatever you think about Iron Man, it is absolutely playing with the War on Terror as a theme (there's an argument to be made that despite Stark's narrative path in that film, overall it's a pretty pro-War on Terror film! But that's a whole other rabbit hole). Captain America: The Winter Soldier, I would argue, is, in part, about the military industrial complex spying on the citizens of America! And so on, for a good chunk of the other films, Black Panther in particular like you mention. I acknowledge there was a formula there form the beginning, for sure, but at a certain point (I'd argue around Doctor Strange, specifically, actually, although I haven't watched that movie in a long time so I may misremember deeper themes it might've played with), the movies trended more towards the formula only with far less substance than before (I cannot make the argument for every Marvel film before it, either. Some of them were bad and very shallow. And I'm fine with dumb fun, generally, although I would make the argument we're past the sell-by date on that for these films, too).

I just cannot see anyone watching Thunderbolts and coming away with an interesting reading of it beyond something like "it touched on depression a little" (and, hoo boy, I would argue "a little" would be doing a LOT of heavy work in that argument). You can do that with several of the earlier movies - heck, for all I know, they'll get their mojo back and you'll be able to do it with the next Avengers (though I doubt it). But I don't think it's just Marvel or comic book fatigue that is making these movies make less and less money and being regarded as lower quality lately (even Deadpool parodies this with the line "Welcome to the MCU! You've joined at a bit of a low point" in the Deadpool & Wolverine movie).

 

[Patrick]

I disagree with a lot of what you said, but I don't want to continue arguing with you about Marvel stuff. I appreciated Thunderbolts a lot more than you did. I'll just leave it at that. If you are not interested in what Marvel is making and would rather watch other things, that's great. I was surprised by your comparisons, but I am not interested in trying to convince you to like something you don't.

 

[RT-55J]

I think I need to go back and watch the old X-men movies or something.

I highly recommend this. I rewatched X2: X-Men United last week, and man that was a good time.

 

[Patrick]

Actually, I have a few more things to say about Phases 4 and 5. Not as a reply to Kazin, just thoughts about the more recent Marvel movies and shows, which the earlier discussion got me thinking about. There are a number of reasons why the post-Endgame Marvel stuff feels somewhat deflated.

1) Endgame was built up as a finale for the series, and saw half of the original 6 Avengers exit.
2) There was a huge break right after phase 3 due to Covid.
3) Filming during the pandemic was difficult, for all movies and TV shows.
4) Some plots had to be changed due to the pandemic (the Falcon and the Winter Soldier was originally about a viral outbreak)
5) Plans for these phases were further derailed when Chadwick Boseman died and Jonathan Majors turned out to be a creep.
6) I feel like the pivot to streaming TV shows was kind of a failed experiment. Not because the shows were bad (though apparently Secret Invasion was a stinker), but because it diluted the series and made it harder to follow everything. The whole thing felt more sprawling.
7) Finally, and this is the one thing about post-Endgame Marvel that has bothered me, they stopped ending phases with Avengers movies. Previously an Avengers came out every 3-4 years, with Phase 3 having two of them (or arguably three if you count Civil War), but now it's been 7 years since the last one. The general pattern was having a bunch of smaller movies that introduced characters or small sequels that had a minor crossover, leading up to an Avengers movie with a huge crossover of everyone. Now they just keep introducing more characters and they feel much more siloed off. A lot of the TV characters will likely never show up again too. I'd love to see more of these characters interact. That might be one reason why I liked Thunderbolts a lot - it brought together a bunch of minor characters from phases 4 and 5, and was structured like a small scale Avengers.

So yeah, there are some things that were not in Marvel's control, and some mis-steps. My impression is that the negative vibe has made people a lot more critical of the individual movies, while people were enjoying the overall vibe pre-Endgame so they were more willing to forgive some occasional duds (and some of the recent duds have been pretty bad). But some of my favorite Marvel stuff has been in the recent phases, and I'm really looking forward to the next handful of movies.

 

[gogglebob]

Jonathan Majors turned out to be a creep

Gonna say something that is maybe controversial: if Disney thought "Kang" was going anywhere, they would have found a way to make that work somehow. As it was, the whole Kang thing hung on, like, Ant Man 3 and Loki: The D+ Series, and I don't remember anyone reacting to either of those with "omg we need more Kang for the Kangheads". Yes, their plans were interrupted by "real life" in this situation, but even if Majors were not a creep, I don't think it would have improved this "phase" by any significant margin.

 

[Vaeran]

My understanding is that Marvel/Disney expected Quantumania to be a slam dunk and were stunned at the tepid reception it got instead. Apparently this led to some amount of scrambling behind the scenes as to "what do we do about Kang" which crystallized into "get him outta here" when Majors' crimes came to light. Disney waited until the day of his conviction to formally sever ties with him, but I think they had already largely moved on by that point.

I still enjoy the MCU, but I can't deny the passion that once burned bright has cooled significantly. I was unbearably excited for Infinity War and Endgame, and my anticipation was rewarded -- I expected the moon and they delivered, twice. Those movies were so satisfying because so much groundwork had been laid that slowly built to them, but it doesn't really feel like we're building towards anything now. There have been so many narrative dead-ends and cul-de-sacs that Phases 4, 5 and 6 feel like a disorganized mess rather than a roadmap to a climax. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised and Doomsday/Secret Wars will make the plan clearer in hindsight, but it feels like Marvel has been flailing around for years trying to recapture old glories, and their once-confident storytelling has eroded into a desperate desire to win their audience back. "You guys didn't like Eternals? Okay well just forget that happened. But you liked RDJ and Chris Evans, right? Well, they're both back! Please like us again."

The Infinity Saga was an incredible, unprecedented achievement in filmmaking, and I think expecting Marvel to be able to repeat that on command is asking too much. But it's also undeniable that it's just not as fun as it once was. I know the corporate profit-engine must be fed and so this is an impossibility, but I wish after Secret Wars they'd take a break for a few years and really think about where they want to go with these movies next.

 

[Patrick]

I thought Kang was good in Loki (probably the best of the TV shows, too). Marvel also pivoted away from Black Panther instead of recasting, so I feel like there was some kind of studio-wide philosophy to not recast. So I think the argument that real life got in the way has some support. Quantumania was a stinker though, so that did not help the character.

Also, IIRC marvel did not have access to Fox characters until around the time they decided to pivot to a new idea, so maybe just having the option of using Doom right away was too much to resist.

 

[Patrick]

Those movies were so satisfying because so much groundwork had been laid that slowly built to them

At least some of that was retroactive. Like, Thanos showed up twice in stingers to kind of hang around and look threatening, and his entire character was established in Infinity War. Plus they made some of the stuff from early movies like the cosmic cube and Loki's staff into Infinity stones, so it feels like they were planning this stuff since phase 1. The Russos took a lot of loose threads and wove them together and made the entire series retroactively better.

I do feel like the pattern of several small movies followed by an Avengers crossover, plus a focus on a smaller number of characters and just a few things to watch each year really helped lay the groundwork though. The lack of structure in 4-5 is hurting the series more than the average movie quality.

EDIT: And there are a lot of loose threads in phases 4-5 that could be pulled on. People talk a lot about the multiverse stuff, but there are also a lot of shared themes about having children and families, new heroes taking over existing roles, how the public sees superheroes, etc. It feels sprawling now, but the two big crossovers might make the earlier stuff feel more cohesive once again.

 

[YangusKhan]

That might be one reason why I liked Thunderbolts a lot - it brought together a bunch of minor characters from phases 4 and 5, and was structured like a small scale Avengers.

This was an aspect of Thunderbolts I also liked quite a lot too. I mean it also helps that Florence Pugh is delightful, I guess.

 

[4-So]

I'll say there is something completely appropriate about the MCU's dead-ends, cul-de-sacs, endless need to reinvent, and desire to fill every space with "connection" that requires the consumer to keep up with umpteen different things. Afterall, that's exactly how Marvel (and DC) have always worked. That's just Comic Books 101. That's the MO.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

If we're still discussing the disappointment of post-Endgame Marvel content, I can't really argue against that evaluation. But in my opinion, the stuff coming out post-Endgame hasn't been like, markedly worse than the stuff that came before. It's actually kinda just the exact same stuff. I've always thought most Disney/Marvel stuff was competent but routine/generic popcorn fluff, with occasional bangers scattered about.

The real difference to me, is that there was a conceited attempt to shift away from one set of characters, to new ones. And even if everything else is exactly the same in form, function, and theme, people get emotionally attached to *characters*, and get upset and divest if those characters get replaced.

And I think that's Disney's big miscalculation. They thought the brand was stronger than anything else, and kept the same generic house-style for most of their content. So they kept the winning formula, but didn't keep the winning personalities and faces. That amounted to uncomfortable change and divestment/boredom.

I don't remember where I heard it, but someone summed up the human perspective as really disliking change and not wanting it, until they're hit with something that genuinely feels fresh and exciting. Something that they didn't know they wanted, but now gives them this rush. If you change things just a little bit, a lot of people are instinctively close minded and will not appreciate the increments you've made because they just wanted that one thing back again that made them feel alive and excited, and now you've gone and messed with it.

That's why I think certain things like Spiderverse succeeded, where Marvel's Phase 4 and beyond didn't. A new Captain America doing kinda the exact same things in the exact same way as the old Cap, is upsetting to the people who just wanted more of that thing they liked. Miles Morales coming in to replace Peter Parker would have probably had the same result had Disney been in charge, but the total package was just so fresh and exciting and new that your typical audience goer wasn't sitting there thinking about all of the ways this wasn't what they wanted, but just how new and cool it all was.

For my money, the best things I've seen (there's a few things I haven't gotten to outta disinterest or lack of time) post-Endgame was:

She-Hulk
Loki
Spider-Man 3
Thor 4 (Yes, I liked it)

The first one just because of how different and refreshing it felt vs all of the other cookie-cutter Marvel movies/shows; the other three because they were solid continuations of things I liked. All of them knocking everything out of the park in terms of character work.

 

[Ostrich]

For my money, the best things I've seen (there's a few things I haven't gotten to outta disinterest or lack of time) post-Endgame was:

She-Hulk
Loki
Spider-Man 3
Thor 4 (Yes, I liked it)

I'll offer some support for She-Hulk. It feels like it's one of the more recent Marvel projects that tends to get a lot of hate. Not as much as Secret Invasion and Ironheart, but it's certainly placed in that category. Maybe not here on Talking Time, but my IRL friends were always negative on it.

I always come back to the Charlie Cox episode, because I love how the comedic environment gives Matt Murdock a chance to shine and show some new personality outside of his typical ultra-serious setting. And, despite the cringe with him and She-Hulk hooking up, I thought their interactions throughout the episode were fun. The man is charming. Plus, we got two episodes with Wong, which is my long-forgotten favorite character in the MCU. I was mixed on the meta finale... But it was at least different and poked fun at the typical "who can punch harder or fly faster" finale, which is also what I appreciated about Thunderbolts. I need to give the entire series a proper rewatch, because I loved it when it premiered.

I'll also say that I did like Thor 4 upon release. A few rewatches have changed my opinion somewhat, but there are certainly some great moments. Maybe I'm just a sucker for screaming goats.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I'll offer some support for She-Hulk. It feels like it's one of the more recent Marvel projects that tends to get a lot of hate. Not as much as Secret Invasion and Ironheart, but it's certainly placed in that category. Maybe not here on Talking Time, but my IRL friends were always negative on it.

Outside of a few specific instances where my curiosity got the best of me, or reading TT and my circle of friends, I've got no clue what the broader internet thinks of She-Hulk and I'm kinda grateful for it. The show is just fun. It's not perfect, but I enjoyed the ride quite a lot. All of the cameos/crossovers that you mention were very pleasing, and Tatiana Maslany is just an incredible actress. The ending sucked, but I can compartmentalize that and still love the show as a whole. It's honestly pretty disappointing that we haven't gotten more and Maslany's name was a glaring omission from the stupid chair-teaser for Doomsday.

I'll also say that I did like Thor 4 upon release. A few rewatches have changed my opinion somewhat, but there are certainly some great moments. Maybe I'm just a sucker for screaming goats.

I haven't really watched it since I watched it in theaters. I don't really tend to rewatch Marvel stuff at all. Thor 4 to me was just more Thor 3, but with an emotional core/ethical message and an attempt to salvage Jane as a character. All of it worked for me. It is probably my favorite Thor thing. I almost feel like I'm taking crazy pills when all I've ever heard is negativity about the film from every direction in my life. Most of it can be summed up with people being very upset at the mood swings the film takes, oscillating between goofy humor, and grave subject matters. And I'm just like... that's how life is? Maybe I've been inoculated with dealing with a lot of personal loss and cancer in my life, but life isn't just a flat emotional state. Sometimes you'll be laughing with your best friend and having the time of your life, even though you know their leukemia has stopped responding to all treatments. I think the biggest criticism I have for it, is that Christian Bale was misused in the film. Every moment he was on screen was incredible, but he wasn't there for all that much of it. He had the intensity, acting chops, and dedication to the bit that would have been suitable for a Thanos-style big bad that could have carried an entire Phase, but he was barely there.

 

[Vaeran]

It's honestly pretty disappointing that we haven't gotten more and Maslany's name was a glaring omission from the stupid chair-teaser for Doomsday.

From what I hear, Tatiana Maslany does not want to work with Disney anymore for political reasons, so unless they recast (boo), that's probably all the She-Hulk we're going to get for a while (also boo).

 

[Ostrich]

Tatiana Maslany is just an incredible actress.

I agree wholeheartedly. I didn't mention it because my partner told me a while back there was some controversy with her and I didn't know the context. But she successfully played a very insecure hero trying to use her powers for good in a corporate world and that made for good stories. Her ups and downs were very relatable, more than most superhero stuff. It's a shame we may not see the character again. And she was very funny in a smart way!

I think the biggest criticism I have for it, is that Christian Bale was misused in the film. Every moment he was on screen was incredible, but he wasn't there for all that much of it. He had the intensity, acting chops, and dedication to the bit that would have been suitable for a Thanos-style big bad that could have carried an entire Phase, but he was barely there.

I think that's my biggest criticism when I rewatch. Christian Bale's character could have used a lot more development. By the time the fights with him rolled around, it just felt like just another bad guy for Thor to punch hard. The intro made me feel for his story, but that didn't hold up throughout the rest of the movie.

Also, hopefully interesting to note, I usually don't fully rewatch MCU films fully unless I'm in a place with cable and they play them on loop 24/7 (Which I discovered was a thing when I visited my parents a few months ago). I only watch the "greatest hits" clips when they come up on my YouTube timeline or I go to iTunes to see the full 3 Spider-Men team-up in No Way Home again. A lot of times these movies end up just like comics: I re-read my favorite bits and move on.

 

[jpfriction]

She Hulk is great and take any controversy or news about Maslany+Disney with a grain of salt as the internet likes to report on the tongue-in-cheek stuff she adlibs on comedy bang bang as hot gossip and she seems to get a kick out of that.

 

[Patrick]

She Hulk is great. Here’s some other phase 4+ stuff I loved:

Loki
Dr Strange and the Multiverse of Madness
Thunderbolts*
Werewolf by Night
Hawkeye
Ms. Marvel
Spider-Man No Way Home
Fantastic 4
Shang-Chi
Moon Knight

 

[Daikaiju]

She-Hulk forever, especially the 4th wall break at the end

 

[Büge]

I almost feel like I'm taking crazy pills when all I've ever heard is negativity about the film from every direction in my life.

I think what mostly kept me from watching the film was that video of Taika Waititi and Tessa Thompson badmouthing the VFX, which I found kind of gross given how little VFX artists are paid for the amount of work they do.

 

[YangusKhan]

I'll be honest I barely remember what happens in Thor 4 but I remember liking it. So, whatever that means.

 

[Ostrich]

I've enjoyed seeing all the appreciation for She-Hulk and Thor 4. It puts things into perspective, I really need to stop following general consensus and just enjoy what I enjoy.

Also, the first official trailer for Spider-Man: Brand New Day drops tomorrow! Apparently they're teasing some little clips here and there, but I'm going to save my energy for the full watch. I can't wait to see what's in store for (Not) Peter Parker.

 

[SpoonyBard]

The biggest problem with She-Hulk is that they try to do a 'haha isn't the idea of a finale about some goober stealing She-Hulks blood to become a hulk himself kinda stupid? Boy isn't that just dumb?!' commentary when that's the finale they set up and filmed! Yes it's more or less undone, but that's still the story they set up and told, they could have just not done that.