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The SaGa Thread

Thanks for reading!

I wonder if you eventually plan on checking out the DS remakes of SaGa 2 and 3, Peklo? I love them both, though neither replace the originals for me.

Oh, probably. Last year or so I set up a new flash card for my DS, so I'll get to play the fan translations on actual hardware. I played 2's remake for a bit years ago when I was much less invested in SaGa in general, and didn't go back to it because I wanted to play the originals first. I've only heard great things about them.

It's been so long that I'd forgotten just how bad the encounter rates could be. I think at some point I ended up running from a lot of them - as you point out, resource management is extremely important.

I had more up-and-down experiences with monsters this time--the party was one each of the races--so when I happened to luck into a Cockatrice in the Nasty Dungeon, which had both the Surprise and Warning passives to enable first strikes and prevent ambushes, I held onto that for a long while as those alone helped immensely in damage mitigation and acting as a safety buffer. Although for what it's worth, I never once had running from battle fail, outside of the final dungeon which forces its encounters to be fought... except for the Haniwa, which appeared just before the final boss, and resulted in a cool setpiece fight as I decided to challenge it and came out in mostly one piece.
 
i remember having a similar feeling in saga 1 because i definitely know there were times i got attacked by su-zaku, ran away, and was immediately attacked again, but i would agree it feels a bit more generally troublesome in 2. i do really adore the story and progression in this game though, i think a lot of the areas are really inventive and clever (a personal highlight being the giant's village) and the vignettes in general are a bit more fleshed out. not that there's anything wrong with the way things play out in 1, which i also loved of course.

the dragon slayer family comparison is apt i think, that's a game i've been playing through this year and i've been absolutely blown away by it in every way. the way the dynamics play out is really unmatched, though even the implication at the end of this game is just so fun. especially because the kid can also be a robot. hahaha.

the translation patches of the remakes don't play nice on 3ds firmware in my experience so far, but fortunately i think i'm reaching a point where i can probably read a remake of a game from 1990 without a patch, which should be fine. probably.
 
Oh, probably. Last year or so I set up a new flash card for my DS, so I'll get to play the fan translations on actual hardware. I played 2's remake for a bit years ago when I was much less invested in SaGa in general, and didn't go back to it because I wanted to play the originals first. I've only heard great things about them.
Nice! They are very underplayed at least in the circles I run in, so I look forward to your eventual thoughts about them whenever you get to them. SaGa 3's remake in particular is kinda incredible considering what the original game was (I'm not a huge fan of FFL3 in its original form), but I love the remake of 2 as well. Encounters being on the overworld will probably mitigate your issues with the high encounter rate in the original version of 2, at least.
 
except for the Haniwa, which appeared just before the final boss, and resulted in a cool setpiece fight as I decided to challenge it and came out in mostly one piece.
Ooh, yeah, I remember trying to encounter those and snag the elusive Seven Sword, which is the best weapon in the game. I know I got it on one of my runs and ended up putting it on my robot, which of course means only three uses, but they were powerful uses.

I suppose technically the most powerful it could be would be on a human/mutant with max STR/AGI. I'd be curious as to how much damage it could put on Arsenal with max stats...
 
i do really adore the story and progression in this game though, i think a lot of the areas are really inventive and clever (a personal highlight being the giant's village) and the vignettes in general are a bit more fleshed out.

My headcanon is that the giants aren't around anymore because they left for Romancing SaGa.

I think just structurally Apollo's world was probably my favourite since it allows for picking the order from a few different dungeons for completing it. The MAGI counter is a good visualized game completion estimate (again bringing to mind Metroid II and its extinction counter, and how both are played with by the narrative) but the game makes little illusions about every one of them being mandatory and very plainly on the primary path, so those brief investigative interludes were nice.

The game's most unexpected modernism is probably the Memo feature. Definitely wasn't expecting to find a gradually filling out contextual glossary and hint compilation in a game from 1990.
 
Finished Final Fantasy Legend III. This sure was a weird one. Like I imagine most people at this point are, prior to playing I was familiar with the basic developmental circumstances of the game, in that Akitoshi Kawazu and the rest of the existing SaGa team responsible for the previous games were not involved--as they were kept busy by Romancing SaGa's development--and that reins were handed to the newly established Square Osaka branch. Practically everyone credited here would go on to work on Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, and those commonalities are easily visible in the style of battle presentation or the presence of a jumping action in navigating the field maps... but it's likely also tied to the game's overall design ethos that settles uncomfortably with its own heritage.

Throughout my time playing the game, I kept coming back to a question that I could ultimately find no compelling answer to: why was any of the SaGa residue kept here? This is a game uninterested in being like its predecessors, and feels like it's doing that lip service out of obligation, not any sort of insight or ingenuity. The biggest shakeup that ends up transforming the play experience is the use of a conventional character level progression, and if that was the hard shift that was committed to, maybe the game could be understood as its own, more generic thing... but SaGa progression systems are slotted on top--equipment stat boosts, item-based stat boosts, meat transformations--in a way that absurdly tilts the playing field in the player's favour at all times, supercharging the expediency and triviality of their power curve that the game can never match. Other system-level factors contribute to the feeling, from unlimitedly large spell lists that all except robots can utilize (through MP pools and not charges, in addition), to the absence of limited-use equipment so all concerns of resource management and diversifying one's arsenal don't matter, to every character being able to class change into every other race at a whim so no character development choices are impactful in their permanence and commitment, to money gains being obscenely plentiful so classes like robots have no issue maxing out their stats very early into the game without setting out to stockpile the resources for it. All of SaGa 3's systems are simplified where I'm sure the intent was accessibility, but in practice what they in aggregate accomplish is a flattening of characteristic legacy systems that arrived at their memorability in large part because they took effort and experimentation to understand and unravel, with the game pushing back all the while. Almost the entire running time of this game for battles is devoted to picking out the currently available variety of instant death ability, throwing it out in perpetuity, and watching the dominoes fall; friction is not in the game's vocabulary at any juncture and so impressions run vague and unsatisfying in recollection.

A similar sense of interchangeable routine permeates the game's plotting and world design as well. I'm actually fond of parts of the mapping style present, in how from early on the Float and Dive spells expand one's exploratory barriers to skyward travel and seafloor traversal, but the details of the implementation threaten with monotony: should you find a sunken shipwreck, it will always be the same map with varying treasure within, and later on in the game the same occurs with caves and mushroom growths, with half-a-dozen ostensible optional locations just playing for time in recycling material. This is the longest of the Game Boy trilogy, but it feels perfunctory and workmanlike in its scenario writing, where by contrast the previous games were comprised of colorful and dramatic vignettes that shaped the journey through the diverse lands, SaGa 3 opts for a time travel premise where every step of the journey feels like the same errand playing out again and again, as eras and character appearances fail to distinguish themselves, despite featuring what's nominally the largest named cast in the series so far and using the same kind of guest character schema as in the previous game. There's no verve or vitality to what's being said by the characters or accomplished by the player because nothing about the experience ever changes: the central time-traveling spacecraft exploding to pieces is followed up by an identical replacement being supplied literally immediately, and with equal aplomb a character's lethal self-sacrifice is undone at a whim for the credits roll. Probably the most interesting aspect of the narrative present is that the overarching threat is an impersonal environmental calamity, in the form of a supernatural jar that endlessly spews forth water across history flooding every era of the planet, but it's not what you fight at the end since the favour lies with a I-shall-return biomonster pulling everyone's strings.

If the game has any particular strong points, they all involve bits of visual flavour and stylization. You're still facing down enemies head-on during battles, but character sprites appear on screen now, so you have more of an impression of what your party looks like, and given the game's freeform meat-eating and parts-installing class system, those shapes and forms are highly mutable; I did not see humans or mutants after the beginning as I branched out to beasts, monsters, cyborgs and robots for the entirety of the game. The more niche classes are not the challenge, or demanding of a particular playstyle that they were in the previous games as everyone is some manner of generalist, but that unspecificity results in a play arc of seeing a great many different forms the characters can adopt, which highly carries the game's otherwise doldrums progression in its novelty factor. All creature transformations are now governed by level, so the pools are always steadily progressing along with that number with no chance of devolving into a highly weaker form, so what's lost in diversity and player responsibility is gained in a predictable power curve no matter how the game is played. For what's mechanically a downright boring RPG, maximizing any sense of novelty is paramount for sustaining interest until the end, and for that purpose the class system has some merit.

I wasn't a big fan of SaGa 3, but it was nice to put a bow on the original trilogy regardless of how it in isolation turned out. To know there's another take on it out there, by a different team working in a different era with decades of additional experience and hindsight... that's the exciting part.
 
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I think the SaGa 3 remake is a delightful compromise between the original version of SaGa 3, and a version that Kawazu and team worked on themselves. It actually respects the weird character race changing system while also balancing things and giving the player a fair challenge. It also largely builds on and expands upon the plot of SaGa 3 in its original form, with some added bits, of course. If you only play one DS SaGa remake, make it 3 (and I like 2 DS a lot!).

But, yeah. The original version of 3 does very little for me. Among all the stuff you mentioned, it also is just slow. Every animation feels like it takes an eternity. The first two games were zippy, especially for RPGs at the time - you can rip through a ton of battles very quickly (which is good, considering the encounter rate of 2). But 3 is just a slog.
 
I played all of these through the Collection of SaGa release and basically exclusively had the fast-forward toggled for all of them. It's the good kind of toggle as it doesn't distort the audio.
 
Ah, yes, that helps immensely for SaGa 3. That was how I finally played through it, too, because of the fast forward.
 
It sounds like my bouncing off of it continually wasn't just a "me" problem. Good to know! Perhaps the truly impressive thing about this game and team, though, is that they would go on to develop Rudra no Hihou, which is a fantastic RPG and matches up well with many of the best games of the era.
 
Up to Apollo's world in SaGa 2 DS and absolutely loving it. Impactful changes and additions it makes:
  • all the races get something new. Humans now have weapon proficiencies that increase effectiveness per weapon type with use; espers gain a class specialization that grants passive boosts to stats nudging them toward whatever niche according to their tendencies in combat; mecha have a damage boost with guns (maybe all weapons??); monsters can now inherit skills between transformations as well as turn into variant forms that possess different skills from the base form in question.
  • exploration verbs have been expanded upon through map abilities. Excavating treasure, breaking obstacles and such.
  • there are now dozens upon dozens of small side stories and events littered about the game. Fulfilling them isn't usually complicated--some talking, some treasure hunting, some battling--but finding them can be, which leads into...
  • the party have interpersonal relationships between one another in tracked, codified terms: person-to-person (so six in all) and a collective group identity. These are used for triggering said events, where the collective team name and nature is what dictates what events are available, depending on if the party leans toward a positive or negative disposition overall.
  • these relations are formed and adjusted through link combos during battle, which use a "Thread of Fate" consumable to shift any given pair toward a respective dynamic, for eight different ones total. They are both a powerful additional resource, and the means to exploring the game's content to its fullest by interacting with the system.
  • Threads of Fate are redeemed from the Moirai sisters, using the currency of "Muse Points". The Muses are another new sub-system in the game, where meeting them through one's travels forms a connection where each of them begin overseeing the party's journey, granting blessings in the form of their personal currency if the party gains their favour. For each, it's accomplished by battling accordingly to their wishes and preferences; one might value a fast victory, while another prefers diverse use of skills. Through these incremental boons, as well as gifting the Muses personal tribute, they eventually reach an "MP granted" threshold where they lend their direct assistance to the party from then on, in the form of their divine intervention that occurs at random. Continuing to gather favour from them past that point increases the effectiveness of those calls for aid.
  • there's a powered-up boss rematch arena, in which you can't build stats, but resources used during battle are also returned. Party dynamics are also given a blank slate, and what they end up at the end of each successful fight through Thread of Fate use dictates the reward given for each boss, for a wide variety of possible treasure.
There's more, but these are the things that stand out. It can't be overstated what a thoughtful remake this is, where all of these adjustments further emphasize the game's strong points instead of diluting them or changing the game's fundamental sensibilities. The original was structured around a treasure hunt, so there is now an increased bent on digging up resources along the way. The different character classes are now further individualized according to their niches. All of the design goes toward pushing the game's characteristics further instead of backpedaling on them in a way that's really admirable.

Something that frustrated me about SaGa 3 was that despite having as anonymous a party as the other games, it chose to have the protagonist talk on behalf of the foursome almost exclusively; this wasn't the case for the first two games where everyone chimed in and even had little conversations and interactions throughout the narrative. SaGa 2 in particular creates a tentative framing device bond between the party in that they're the protagonist's friends from school who join the adventure of their own volition, so taking that kernel of an idea and turning it into an integrated relationship management mini-game is absolutely the move to make with a retelling of the story, especially given how it interacts with the added sub-events. The positive/negative alignment isn't a contextless trigger point for each scene, but dictates how the party behave in those scenes where they overhear a rumour or decide to investigate a lead, from dynamics ranging from friendly cooperation to barbed rivalry. That these scenes reflect how you've actually played the game is just the kind of narrative integration of mechanics and inferred storytelling that video games at their best can do.

The Moirai and Muses likewise fit so naturally into the game's scope and themes that it'd be difficult for a newcomer to single them out as later embellishments. The reductive and sophomoric blanket rhetoric that people approach RPGs with when it comes to riffing on "killing God" stands in contrast with what SaGa has historically been like, even in light of the first game being iconic for chainsawing God in half. Divinities exist in the series in myriad forms, motivations and aspects, and it's never a foregone conclusion how any game's given pantheon might interact with the presented world at large, narratively or mechanically. Evil gods, indifferent gods, capricious gods, benevolent gods... all have featured in the series in some way, and keep the scenarios fresh for their presence instead of collapsing into the perfunctory. That's how even the early and cartoonish feature deities in the second game read to me, and there was little to fault in the context of the early and cartoonish game they starred in. These later-stage roster expansions slot seamlessly into the game's hodgepodge polytheism while bolstering their presence through a perpetual "the gods are always watching" premise that is both narratively resonant and mechanically in keeping with the SaGa pillars of unpredictable boons and great systems complexity mostly made invisible to the player in the moment. Scarlet Grace's benisons were thrilling for much the same reason, in a context that this reads like a clear precursor to, and these kinds of throughlines are always delightful to discover within a series that manages to embody both wild experimentation and consistently iterative workshopping of ideas.

I think at this point the only possible concerns are the size of the maps in general, in context of the additional doubling-back and poking around there is in this version because of the event triggers and their related tasks. A small caveat for an altogether terrific retelling.
 
It's been a while since I played it so I forgot a few of those details, but yeah, the SaGa 2 remake is really great. I do think the final boss changes if you engage with the added Moirai/Muse system, though, to be way harder, but I can't remember the details (it's been several years, and I only played SaGa 2 DS the once).

In any case, I'm really glad you're both playing and enjoying it. They are underappreciated!
 
Finally digging into the Romancing SaGa 3 Remaster from nearly a decade ago after spending a lot of time digging into the Minstrel Song Remaster from just a few years ago (and having played Revenge of the Seven extensively when it released, and also obvi played all of the original releases via emulator like twenty years ago), and, I know this is a bit unfair because I'm comparing a SFC game to full remakes, but it feels like RS3 has the least interesting hook of the Romancing trilogy. I think this comes down to (A) an intro that's shared by most of the cast (and doesn't really do a great job of establishing anything about half the protagonists) and (B) the main quest boiling down to defeating the Four Elemental Fiends. And while RS1's "go find the Crystals so you can defeat the sealed evil god" is also not the most unique premise, it does allow you to ignore the crystals completely if you so desire, and obvi RS2 provides a unique twist on the "Heroes versus the Empire" concept.

Great support party members though!

(I'm also discovering that I prefer Stat Growth SaGas to Fixed Stat SaGas)
 
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