The Human Adventure Continues: Talking About Star Trek

[WisteriaHysteria]

I'm rewatching DISCO and cutting it with episodes of TNG to break up the pace and tone.

I value a lot of what Discovery did in its first season, and remember the fun I had watching it the first time. But it's a show that's so reliant on twists that it doesn't offer as much on rewatches. I think the character arcs in Season 1 were also pretty decent on paper, but having them play out and basically become complete in under 15 episodes was a big mistake. The arc that Burnham alone goes through in Season 1 is enough character development for a full seven seasons, but it's crammed into a single mini-series and thus feels rushed and not as well earned. On retrospection, I imagine that's also a big part of why Season 2 of Discovery has some issues, since its USS Discovery characters pretty much had their full character development arcs already, and they're just spinning their wheels in Season 2 or re-learning the same lessons which feels redundant. Burnham goes from being a person who doesn't know how to handle her emotions, to someone who fully embraces them by the end of Season 1 and I'm not really sure how they got from Point A to Point C there. I'd say each theme that gets teased out over the length of the season is also pretty good on paper, but I imagine each one would have been better served being the focal point of its own individual episode versus being kinda slowly trickled through the plot and not ever given a satisfying conclusion. Things like Lorca's obsession with destiny versus self-determination is kinda fascinating when you consider things like the Mirror Universe and how it manages to spawn identical individual people despite radically different events and circumstances. I also appreciate the attempt to make a non-Captain the focal point of the narrative, but Discovery never quite manages to make Burnham feel like the most interesting thing going on, which is a detriment to the show. Lower Decks on the other hand does a much better job of nailing the idea of bringing the narrative focus onto traditionally supporting cast. I mostly just wish Lorca was never a mirror baddie and could have just been the focus of his own show because Jason Isaacs is amazing and was the best actor on the show. Star Trek works a lot better when your best actors/actresses are given the staring role to carry the shows and it just feels weird when a supporting character steals the show like that. That's not to say Sonequa Martin-Green is a bad actress, but she's not as good as Isaacs and she's also given a lot of bad material to work with.

Meanwhile, I'm working my way through TNG at the same time. You can really see how early on it's just more TOS in spirit. Which I'm glad it grows up as a show and finds its own voice, but I find a lot of the things it tries to do in S1 kinda charming, even if it doesn't fully work. I just watched the drug addict episode. I remember hating this episode as a kid because it was boring, and because David Marcus was in it as a druggie. But there's a point where the crew explains what drug addiction is to a confused Wesley, and it's kinda... amazing! Within the context of the late 80s, where the War on Drugs was doing some really gross stuff with regards to children's education, it's some galaxy brain, way ahead of its time stuff where TNG explains drug addiction in ways that are both honest, compassionate, and non condescending. What an amazing show. Now I'm off to watch "Skin of Evil" so I can see Tasha Yar die via trash bag, with a fruit rollup stuck to her face.

 

[conchobhar]

I think the character arcs in Season 1 were also pretty decent on paper, but having them play out and basically become complete in under 15 episodes was a big mistake. The arc that Burnham alone goes through in Season 1 is enough character development for a full seven seasons, but it's crammed into a single mini-series and thus feels rushed and not as well earned. On retrospection, I imagine that's also a big part of why Season 2 of Discovery has some issues, since its USS Discovery characters pretty much had their full character development arcs already, and they're just spinning their wheels in Season 2 or re-learning the same lessons which feels redundant.

You may already know this, but Discovery was initially pitched as an anthology series, with each season set in a different era with a different cast. CBS instead suggested a straightforward serial, but Fuller and Kurtzman never really gave up on the anthology idea; with that in mind, a lot of Discovery's writing and plot decisions make sense.

 

[Adrenaline]

It's always great when the money people and the creative people fundamentally disagree on what something should be

 

[chud_666]

now it's an anthology series with same cast and characters!

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Oh I'm well aware.

Disco S3 begins tonight. I've got a lot of trepidation! CBS put the first few minutes of the first episode up online to generate hype about a week ago, and today put up the new title sequence. It's mostly the same song and video, but with a few new additions and changes. Notably the little worker droids are thrown in there, as is the DIS-era insignia being replaced with presumably 32nd Century versions. I really have ZERO interest in a post-collapse Federation, despite it actually sounding a lot like a previously scrapped web cartoon that sounded pretty interesting on paper.

Scripts Revealed For Scrapped ‘Star Trek Final Frontier’ Animated Series

Six years ago TrekMovie broke the news that CBS was considering a new animated Star Trek series developed by some insider vets. This show "Star Trek: Final Frontier" never made it past the development stage, but in the past the creators have shared images and details on the web. And now they are...

trekmovie.com

In this aborted web cartoon, you've got a post-Federation future where the mass detonation of Omega Molecule rendered most of charted space inaccessible to conventional warp, and the Federation a hollow shadow of its former self, having fallen apart and contracted to a few core worlds. And the story was thus about a plucky band of young explorers trying to reclaim Starfleet/The Federation's old glory. Which, on the surface, sure sounds a lot like DISCO S3's scenario of a "Burn" that one day caused the Federation to collapse. And the USS Discovery showing up with a Spore Drive could be a game changer for a similar post-warp future if that is what's going on. Of course, all of this ignores the 24th Century being on the trajectory of having developed transwarp conduits and other business, so it'll be "interesting" to see what Discovery remembers and forgets about Trek canon. I have considerably less faith in the people running DISCO versus say, the people running Lower Decks.

The preview clip of S3 showed a lot of completely alien tech that looks like it belongs on Krypton than in Starfleet. Not really looking forward to that.

 

[Büge]

Meanwhile, I'm working my way through TNG at the same time. You can really see how early on it's just more TOS in spirit.

I mean, you probably knew this, but they originally packaged it with TOS and put it immediately into syndication, because they weren't sure if the show could make it on its own.

Which I'm glad it grows up as a show and finds its own voice, but I find a lot of the things it tries to do in S1 kinda charming, even if it doesn't fully work. I just watched the drug addict episode. I remember hating this episode as a kid because it was boring, and because David Marcus was in it as a druggie. But there's a point where the crew explains what drug addiction is to a confused Wesley, and it's kinda... amazing! Within the context of the late 80s, where the War on Drugs was doing some really gross stuff with regards to children's education, it's some galaxy brain, way ahead of its time stuff where TNG explains drug addiction in ways that are both honest, compassionate, and non condescending. What an amazing show. Now I'm off to watch "Skin of Evil" so I can see Tasha Yar die via trash bag, with a fruit rollup stuck to her face.

During my most recent rewatch of the series, I learned that "Symbiosis" was actually filmed after "Skin of Evil". At the very end of "Symbiosis", there's a shot where Picard and Crusher are walking out the cargo bay, and Denise Crosby waves goodbye right as the doors close. That was her last filmed scene as a regular on the show, so it makes for a touching moment.

 

[FelixSH]

I just watched the episode, where Archer dog gets sick, and he spends a big deal of the night in sick bay. Good episode, one of the few I still remembered from years ago.

Phlox implied that Archer was horny, and that this was the reason for friction with T'Pol. Uh, please tell me that I don't have to expect some relationship drama nonsense. I think T'Pol and Trip become a couple at some point? Any relationship drama between these two? Or even worse, a love triangle?

I can tolerate this stuff on the level of Kira and Odo, that wasn't too bad. So, do I have to expect something of that nature in Enterprise?

 

[YangusKhan]

Trip and T'Pol are a constant romance drama, but Archer quickly falls out of that triangle as the show goes on.

 

[estragon]

I think the Trip and T'Pol romance is handled pretty well over the course of the show despite starting out kind of rough. DS9 is my favorite Star Trek series but I think Trip/T'Pol ends up being a better story than Kira/Odo, which relies on Nice Guy tropes for way too long too for my taste.

 

[YangusKhan]

I think the Trip and T'Pol romance is handled pretty well over the course of the show despite starting out kind of rough. DS9 is my favorite Star Trek series but I think Trip/T'Pol ends up being a better story than Kira/Odo, which relies on Nice Guy tropes for way too long too for my taste.

I agree with this.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I'm onto S2 of TNG, and it's starting to feel a lot more like TNG, but still is wearing its TOS on its sleeves pretty hard. As I get older, I find myself appreciating a lot of the S2 episodes I used to hate as a kid. Like, "The Child" is still weird AF and creepy, but I also just like the optimism and trust and care that these characters have for this spacebaby, despite them being more than justified in following Worf's advice to abort. I'm also not finding Pulaski's back and forth with Data to be remotely meanspirited so far. She has her negative preconceptions, yes. But she's also fairly aloof and treats Data as more of a curiosity than with contempt and wants to know more about him. Meanwhile, I just watched a whole episode where Guinan does what people claim Pulaski does by berating him over his incapacity to understand humor, but that's nbd. I think Pulaski actually has a really compelling back-and-forth with Picard, being just as headstrong, and being the only person on the ship who won't take his shit or will stand up to him. It's a lot better than Crusher's fuck-me-eyes. (BTW, I'm still disappointed that Picard and Crusher never hooked up properly.)

I love and adore how much of a product of its time TNG is. I just watched an episode where the entire dilemma was that the Enterprise's computer caught a virus. And the big epiphany was that they needed to format the HDD to make it go away. I bet that was pretty profound/out there in 1988.

Also, I never noticed this before, but there's this weird creepy robot in the background of one of the episodes ("The Schizoid Man") and wow

If this were Star Wars, that guy would have a name, a backstory, and like 5 books written about him.

 

[Büge]

Meanwhile, I just watched a whole episode where Guinan does what people claim Pulaski does by berating him over his incapacity to understand humor, but that's nbd.

Everyone is equally guilty for the suicide bomb that is The Outrageous Okona.

 

[FelixSH]

I had a feeling that I hit a bit of a lull with S2 of Enterprise, after Carbon Creek. But looking over the episodes I have watched since, there are a lot of good ones. Minefield has the first encounter with Romulans, where they make quite a nice, first impression. A Night in Sickbay is another episode I remember from years ago, and which I enjoyed back then and now. Seeing the ship during the night (sort of, it certainly feels that way) was fun. It's really mainly Marauders and The Seventh, which didn't work for me.

But then I got to Singularity, and that was a very enjoyable episode, where everyone goes obsessed with dumb stuff, which was a lot of fun to watch. Phlox makes a really good mad doctor, but he is always a joy. But my favourite character there was Malcolm, and I really wished he would push even more for higher security than he already does. I really enjoy the part of his character that is obsessed with work.

Vanishing Point, the episode where Hoshi has to use the transporter, and then weird stuff happens. Another one of my favourites, nothing much happens, but it had such a great mood. It felt a lot like a Twilight Zone episode. Really good.

Next up is Precious Cargo, which seems potentially problematic, and also not very interesting, going from the description. But we will see, and single, weak episodes are fine. Because, and I know I repeat myself, this show has more than enough really strong ones.

Edit: The only thing that I have a bit of a problem with is the chemistry between the crew members, and maybe just the crew members in general. They still feel kind of weak, and not enough like real people. But then, my comparisons are TNG, which needed until its third season to make the crew really work, and DS9, which just has my favourite crew from all of Trek, where at least that part worked very well from the get-go.
So, I hope that gets better, at least with S3. But for now, the show works anyway.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Trip and Malcom begin to form a really good friendship after a while. It's not quite Geordi & Data/O'Brien & Bashir, or even Paris & Kim. But it's good. Phlox is great with everyone because he's a fantastic character/actor. T'Pol, Archer, and Trip as a triumvirate really click well imo, and recapture that Spock/Kirk/McCoy dynamic with a twist. The twist is overt sexual tension instead of being coded. Hoshi and Mayweather are the odd men out. Hoshi gets a few good episodes and some decent interaction, but poor Mayweather was the diversity hire that nobody could figure out how to make him interesting or give him fun things to do, it's really regrettable. The overall chemistry isn't as great as some of the other shows, but it does get better with time, and ENT had less time to figure itself out versus all the other older Treks. Only show I'd say with less chemistry among its cast is DIS.

"Precious Cargo" is kind of a whatever episode. Padma Lakshmi is a fun personality, and the episode exists mostly just as your boiler plate male fantasy. Which is like, w/e, we can have a few of those every once in a while as long as it's not super grody, which this one mostly manages to escape.

 

[Büge]

That's interesting because I've found a lot of the DS9 descriptions keep things limited to the cold open, which sometimes results in it being amusingly misrepresentative.

That happened with "A Matter Of Time"! It outlines how the crew's attempting to save a colony from ecological collapse, with no mention of wacky time traveling guest star Matt Frewer.

 

[Johnny Unusual]

Fun fact: that was supposed to be Robin Williams who really wanted to appear on the show but just couldn't in the end. So instead it was Max Headroom.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

TNG S3E07 “The Enemy” - I HATED this episode as a kid. It was a visceral, irrational, instinctual hatred. I really didn’t understand it. Just that when it would show up on TV, it would ruin my entire day. As an adult, I recognize that it’s got some great moral parables to extol, some good acting, the first appearance of the delightful Commander Tamalak, among other virtues going for it. But upon rewatching it, I still hate it. A lot. And I think it’s because the entire episode is about making Geordi wet, muddy, and miserable. And my guy Geordi deserves better than that bullshit. It also makes Worf into a bigoted jackass, and it’s the beginning of the Adversaries Stuck On A Planet Together and Must Cooperate to Survive episode archetype that I hate in Star Trek.

 

[FelixSH]

I just watched "Judgement", episode 19 of S2 of Enterprise. It was excellent. I generally don't like the Klingons much, at least not as antagonists. I'm just so tired of their macho bullshit and the whole toxic masculinity that runs through their obnoxious culture. And while all the races in Trek have their specific main characteristic, I find all the others more interesting than the Klingons "Rah, rah, honor!". This might be a personal thing, I just find it way more fun to see the Romulans or the Cardassians being jerks.

The lawyer in this episode was so refreshing. This episode offers some information about when the Klingon empire was still at a cultural high point, that it actually had real honor, and not just that stupid, empty word, that every Klingon uses to justify aggression. It is just interesting to know that this Empire is not only from a power standpoint, but also culturally on a very bad way. It's so much more interesting than listen to honor-nonsense. I dunno, maybe I'm unfair, and I know that 90s Trek did more with the race, but I feel it always comes down to them being bloodthirsty and ready to punch each other. I'm just tired of this stupid warrior culture.

Are there any novels that heavily deal with the Klingon empire during it's cultural high point? Or maybe at the point where it falls apart? I'd really like some historical information about this race, something that shows more of this race than what it means to be a warrior.

And wow, the next episode is about Mayweather. The only one in the whole show? Who would have thought.

Edit: And there is a small subplot, about how T'Pol watches Frankenstein for the first time. Afterwards, Trip asks her how she found the story. I don't know what he wanted her to say, but she brought up interesting points about it, which, of course, results in him rolling his eyes. Sorry, it's just a trope that I really don't like, when someone in a show reads deeper into a piece of media and everyone is annoyed and bored by it. That's the most interesting part about consuming media to me. Just made me like T'Pol even more.

 

[zonetrope]

Watched Search for Spock last night, first time in seven years or so. I think I'd actually rank it among the even-numbered entries now, or at least First Contact. The only thing that didn't land with me is that Robin Curtis and Merritt Butrick either aren't capable enough actors to carry the weightiest scenes in the movie, or Nimoy just doesn't have the right directorial touch for pathos. But he's great at comedy, and it's a really funny movie, almost funnier than Voyage Home at points. James B. Sikking from Hill Street Blues is a perfect choice for the bit role of the blowhard Excelsior captain.

Also, Kruge's crabs-in-a-bucket attitude toward killing Kirk at the end, even while the world is literally exploding around him and Kirk is offering him a lifeline, is, uh, extremely resonant right now.

 

[Mommi]

I need to get back to discovery, I heard they just introduced an NB crew member and there's going to be a trans crew member coming up too.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I need to get back to discovery, I heard they just introduced an NB crew member and there's going to be a trans crew member coming up too.

There's been some mixed messaging on this so it's a little confusing. The actor identifies as non-binary. The character so far is... unclear? They're using feminine pronouns with them so far. That might change down the line. I anticipate if they work it into the story, they'll be using the fact that they're a human hosting a trill symbiont to explore those issues in allegory. The trans actor added to the crew later is going to be Trill so that's probably more exploration through allegory stuff too if I were a betting person. Only time will tell I guess. But yeah, so far - three episodes in - Disco S3 is really really good. Like, shockingly good and interesting. I especially like the new character Booker, because

Spoiler

SHE'S A QUEEN

 

[FelixSH]

Watching the season 2 finale of Enterprise (where there is a terrorist attack on Earth) is really bizarre, after what happened yesterday in Vienna.

 

[FelixSH]

I think I don't like season 3 of Enterprise much, at least not when I go after the first four episodes. Considering how bad this year was, I would prefer something with more, uh, joy.

T'Pols catsuits now even have a clevage. *sigh* The older I get, the more I'm disgusted I get, by this completely dumb and malegazey sexualization of women.

Oh well, the next season has a Gorn in it, so I guess it gets more fun again.

 

[estragon]

In a lot of commentary I see on Enterprise season 3 is the most highly praised because of its serialization, but it's my least favorite of the show personally. It made me just wish I was rewatching Babylon 5 instead.

I think overall it's a hopeful season though with a fairly good message given that it aired in 2004, if you need to know that it gets less depressing tonally. But it does go to some dark places before it gets there, so if you don't want that right now maybe give it a break for a while.

I think season 4 strikes a kind of happy medium between season 3's experiments with serialization and typical 90s Stark Trek.

 

[chud_666]

Except for the klingon aug storyline s4 is so great

 

[YangusKhan]

I wasn't digging season 3 for a while but ultimately came to enjoy enough of it.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I think I don't like season 3 of Enterprise much, at least not when I go after the first four episodes. Considering how bad this year was, I would prefer something with more, uh, joy.

T'Pols catsuits now even have a clevage. *sigh* The older I get, the more I'm disgusted I get, by this completely dumb and malegazey sexualization of women.

Oh well, the next season has a Gorn in it, so I guess it gets more fun again.

Season 3 gets outright bleak at times, but I think ultimately it’s a very good watch because it’s that bleakness that gives context to how ultimately fulfilling and kind of life affirming it ends up being. But it is ymmv so it’ll be interesting to see how you feel about it by the end.

T’Pol’s suit hits a nadir in Season 3, but it gets better imo in Season 4. There is however, a point in Season 3 where she puts on a regular Starfleet Uniform and it is just is so refreshing. She looks great in it and it really becomes her, and it’s disappointing she’s not allowed to stay in it because gotta give all the horny guys eye candy.

 

[FelixSH]

Thanks for the responses. I can generally deal with bleak stuff, if the underlying ideals are positive and hopeful. Like, Babylon 5 is one of my favourite shows ever, and it goes to very dark places. But its message is very positive. Knowing that it basically stays true to being Trek (being hopeful and believes in people as ultimately good).

I also had a long walk today, with a ton of sun out in the fields (with basically no one around) and seemed to have recharged me. I can take some bleakness again. Like, the episode I just watched, Impulse, which is about Vulcans, and how they deal with their emotions. It was very good, but damn, that ending. The show loves to traumatize T'Pol, doesn't it?

Also, I feel like the show knows its characters now. My main problem is, that there just doesn't seem to be much chemistry between the characters, but maybe I'm just spoiled by DS9. I mean, there is Archer-T'Pol, which I like a lot, and Archer-Trip, which is also nice. And Trip-T'Pol, which I don't care for much. Might be just me, I just don't care for sexual tension stuff. And the sexy scenes just bore me to tears.

I like Archer enough. He is a new flavor of captain, capable in his own right, and he isn't as gung-ho as he seems in the beginning. Seems also very aproachable, more like the first among his crew, unlike the clear leader, like, say, Picard. He and T'Pol make a really good team.

T'Pol is great, and from the main three my favorite. I like how they developed her character to take some of the better human qualities, and how she is just, despite the difficulties, more loyal to Archer than to the Vulcans.

I don't care for Trip, because I don't like dudebros. Part of it is his character, he is clearly supposed to be such a person, but I feel that part of it is also that the actor just reminds me so much of that archetype.

Mayweather is there. I guess. I like him when he does something, but he never does. Harry Kim had a better deal, he at least was allowed to die a few times (I don't actually remember much about Harry Kim, this is more guesswork).

Phlox is great and my total fave. I'm happy every single time he is on screen. If you tweak the character a bit, he could be a great crazy scientist. But I really enjoy how nice and fun he is to be around. Always so full of joy, curiosity and pleasentness.

Hoshi is also great. I love that she is that super-linguist, it's just so much fun to see her work with language. I find her pretty interesting, and enjoy her episodes a lot. Would like to see more of her, but she does get a few episodes per season, so that's fine.

Malcolm would be interesting, but I really would like him to lean a bit more into his control-freak persona. The way he is written, he just feels a bit flavorless.

On the whole, a fine crew. I like them at least as much as TOGs, and not being as good as DS9 is fine, that's a high goal.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I've got generally good news for you Felix, based on all of the things you said you'd "like to see".

ENT is a bit of a weird show, especially for that era of Trek. It was very clearly positioned as a soft reboot of the franchise (the first two seasons, it wasn't even called "Star Trek" -- just "Enterprise") and that extended itself to the casting - where they were clearly trying to replicate earlier success with TOS by reviving the Trifecta/Big Three model of Kirk/Spock/Bones and the rest of the bridge crew being more accoutrements than stars in their own right. I've seen interviews by some of the actors that acknowledged as much where Malcom's actor admitted he went into the show knowing he would essentially be a B-lister and that he didn't expect very much in the way of narrative focus. It just kinda is what it is. And imo, ENT becomes a better show once you recognize that and adjust your expectations accordingly.

I endorse a lot of your character evaluations, except for Trip. I just like the guy. He definitely has that smarmy dudebro southern swagger that I can see a lot of people being repulsed by. But he's got a heart of gold, and always puts his life on the line to protect his ship/crew in ways that are probably the most heroic anyone gets in Star Trek, short of a few of Janeway's shenanigans. And while he has obvious character flaws, they aren't set in stone and over the course of the show he really learns some hard lessons, grows up, and softens his dudebroness into a character that has a much more healthy relationship with his emotions.

And that capacity for character growth is really one of the things that sets ENT aside for me as a Good, Actually show. Every good Trek has character development arcs over the course of their runs. Some are a little more intentional and planned out than others, and some work better than others as well. Like, Riker's evolution from a cowboy to a responsible tightwad works but seemed more out of necessity to explain why he would stick around on the ship past the first few seasons. And Dr Bashir's development into Megamind was a haphazard, poorly planned effort to try and breathe life into an otherwise boring character. But all the character development arcs in ENT feel very natural and like they were planned that way from the beginning. Especially with Tucker, T'Pol, and Archer. Archer especially going from glorified astronaut to a statesman and a proper Starfleet Captain is especially good in my mind, as is T'Pol's evolution exploring her emotions/the value of an equal partnership with humanity, and then later helping to rediscover the teachings of Surak and the realignment of Vulcan culture into one we're more familiar with from the TOS/TNG era

 

[Mommi]

I like the arc Malcolm has with the special forces unit over the course of season 3.

We're watching Discovery again, starting near the end of season 1 where my wife fell off last time, very excited to watch together and than stary Season 3 in a few weeks.