The Human Adventure Continues: Talking About Star Trek

[Mothra]

Nope! I am talking about the fact that the klingons, who prominently feature in many episodes, like Day of the Dove in season 3, wear actual literal shoe polish blackface.

It's really shocking to see, particularly for extended periods of time, believe me. Day of the Dove is particularly brutal because it has klingons on-screen for long dialogue scenes for the whole runtime of the ep.

It's real tough to watch. I understand it's not something people want to think about. But there were black actors in this era, they could have hired them if they wanted to have this entire species with black skin, but instead they did this? This was 1968 guys. No excuses for this.

Continuing forward, The Empath was pretty solid, then we had a real bad one today in Elaan of Troyius, another episode that contrives a situation where Kirk is blameless in repeatedly slapping an uppity woman to make her submit to his authority, then cows her by humiliating her, then makes out with her (because there's pheromones, you see, she was to blame). These ones are wild, they're this sort of "wouldn't it be awesome if I could do this to a woman but it wasn't my fault" flavor of story that, unfortunately, comes up again and again in TOS.

Anyways, I can see the forum isn't interested in discussing this element of the Trek's history. I won't prolong it further. I just wanted to relay my shock from my watchthrough of TOS. I am of course a fan of Trek, I love the TOS films, I think there's good stories and sets and actors and ideas. But we should not forget nor forgive this extremely ugly element of the Gene Roddenberry era.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

It's real tough to watch. I understand it's not something people want to think about. But there were black actors in this era, they could have hired them if they wanted to have this entire species with black skin, but instead they did this? This was 1968 guys. No excuses for this.

IMO the makeup there is more playing on orientalist tropes than blackface. (Does not make things better, but let's be accurate about our assessments here.) If you wanted to cast an entire race of space black people as the belligerent, sworn enemies of the Federation, don't you think that would be worse?

Anyways, I can see the forum isn't interested in discussing this element of the Trek's history. I won't prolong it further.

I'm more than happy to talk about this subject matter! But in a way that is honest, involves context, and will include views of the full picture. Rather than just excising one element out of a story, forgetting its context, and using it to declare Star Trek is racist. It reminds me of the worst kinds of online discourse that is usually done in bad faith and is beleaguering to have to wade through elsewhere on the internet.

Day of the Dove is the weird middle point in the evolution of the Klingons throughout the Original Series. Where it's clear the decision makers behind the scenes wanted the Klingons to be more "alien" like, but lacked any amount of budget to do so. When looking at that progression, it's a little easier to compartmentalize. It's still weird, and at best involves a default whiteness worldview. Also if this is blackface, then isn't most Klingons from the TNG Era blackface? From Gowron on down to Martok? I always thought it kinda was to a certain degree.

It's also worth noting that the context of the episode itself is an intensely anti-racist, anti-war message. Where Kirk & the Klingons learn to set aside their differences and hatred for one another, promoting unity and mutual respect. I think for me, the wayyyyy more uncomfortable aspect of this episode is when Chekov tries to SA Kang's wife Mara.

...we had a real bad one today in Elaan of Troyius, another episode that contrives a situation where Kirk is blameless in repeatedly slapping an uppity woman to make her submit to his authority, then cows her by humiliating her, then makes out with her (because there's pheromones, you see, she was to blame). These ones are wild, they're this sort of "wouldn't it be awesome if I could do this to a woman but it wasn't my fault" flavor of story that, unfortunately, comes up again and again in TOS.

Elaan of Troyius is a bad one. I'll die on the hill that TOS is on the whole, on the right side of history regarding racism. But oh boy is it a sexist nightmare an uncomfortable amount of the time. The 60s was not an enlightened time in this regard. There was pretty rampant sexism up and down the the Civil Rights Movement for example. There's a little bit of plausible deniability in this episode, in that it's essentially an adaptation of a Shakespearean play (The Taming of the Shrew) but like, *why* were you drawn to adapting this play of all the ones you could have lmao.

 

[Mothra]

You are correct that Gowron and Martok are also white actors putting on brown makeup, and that's also really bad. Like, Michael Dorn had to act across from white actors in brown makeup. I like those characters and those actors, but again, if their alien species was apparently going to be the same skin color as black people, you should hire black actors, or you should change the skin color of the aliens to something non-human (like the did in Discovery, but then went back on? Because the worst fans didn't like it?). You should not put a white actor in black makeup.

It's pretty binary to say that I'm arguing all of Star Trek as a franchise, everything across all movies and writers and actors and TV shows, are all racist. I think you know I am not saying that. But TOS is very racist, mostly in the anti-asian shit but also simply in the production, in putting white actors in brown makeup for klingons and native americans and whatever race that isn't white. That is racist. And we all can plainly see that and agree it is, but somehow we have a problem calling TOS racist and misogynist.

I could understand if this was something like DS9, where there's some regrettable stuff here and there but that's as far as it went. But TOS is for sure, a majority like this. Most episodes we've been watching have been like this, especially once you hit the middle of season 2 onward.

It does strike me that a lot of fans I've encountered really really do not want to talk about this aspect of TOS. They wish it wasn't that way so hard they gaslight themselves into thinking it wasn't, somehow. My optimistic belief is that a lot of them haven't watch the whole of TOS through like I'm doing right now, they've only seen the good ones on rereuns. I have to believe that's the reason why.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

It's pretty binary to say that I'm arguing all of Star Trek as a franchise, everything across all movies and writers and actors and TV shows, are all racist.

I didn't say that. I said "Star Trek" -- that is literally the actual title of TOS lol. My apologies for the confusion.

That is racist. And we all can plainly see that and agree it is, but somehow we have a problem calling TOS racist and misogynist.

The problem is not acknowledging this or that aspect is racist and problematic. It's labeling the entire show that way. When you call something "racist" -- that is an extremely loaded term. In most people's minds, it's a binary thing. Something you either are, or are not. And if you are, you are verboten. Forever marked and completely unforgivable. There is no nuance, no middle ground, no extenuating circumstances, no degrees of severity. When you declare Star Trek is racist, rather than simply having a problem, you're labeling the show with something unforgivable, and by extension implicitly condemning anyone who actually likes it. And I imagine a lot of people are not happy to wade into a debate where they'd feel forced to defend a side being framed in this manner. You're leaving no wiggle room, and not even acknowledging the context or dramatic themes that I've continually brought up. There isn't a lot of space here for a productive discussion.

It does strike me that a lot of fans I've encountered really really do not want to talk about this aspect of TOS. They wish it wasn't that way so hard they gaslight themselves into thinking it wasn't, somehow. My optimistic belief is that a lot of them haven't watch the whole of TOS through like I'm doing right now, they've only seen the good ones on rereuns. I have to believe that's the reason why.

In my anecdotal experience, most people are happy to discuss these issues. Like you say, most people today, within the modern context of the world we live in and how the culture has evolved around us, can recognize oh hey, that thing you did there is bad. But what people don't like, is engaging with people who insinuate or accuse them of being racist. Because again, that's such a taboo thing for most people of good conscious. I see your POV now, but when you say "99.9% of Trek fans who think well of TOS have never watched it" -- that is very easy to take as an implicit condemnation. That if you did watch it and did like it, then you're ok with racism. And therefore racist yourself. You didn't say any of those extrapolated things, and I trust your good faith here. But it's a logical conclusion to take away from what you've written here.

 

[FelixSH]

Anyways, I can see the forum isn't interested in discussing this element of the Trek's history.

Aside from WH and Büge, me, Yangus and Purple offered opinions on the matter. Considering how slow the forum is these days, that's quite a lot of people who are ready to talk about this. And no one just said, that there is no racism in TOS, or that you are wrong. I honestly don't understand what you mean here.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

SNW is back and it's still pretty good. Last week's episode was the Muppet episode and it was beyond delightful. I'm gonna be sad when the show ends. It feels like they've still got plenty to do with this cast.

I've come full circle yet again on my perpetual, cyclical franchise rewatch where I'm starting TNG again. I've played with the idea for a long time, but now I think I'm going to finally do it: meticulously document how "useful" Deanna Troi is. Because while I freely admit the writers clearly didn't always know what to do with her character, I always felt the "useless" label that fans have thrown at the character for my entire life to be informed more by latent misogyny and toxic masculinity than anything real in the text of the show.

I think I know how I'll rate things. A simple point system where she'll get 1 point for positively contributing to the solution of whatever weekly dilemma, and maybe like a half point if her contributions begin and end with "sensing" an adversary's intentions/mood. So if all she does is say, "I sense deceit" then that's a half point. But if she gives advice or analysis of any kind, that's a full point for the episode.

My only question is, do I do the same for the rest of the main cast so we have control groups/points of reference?

 

[chud_666]

I haven't posted on TT in a hot minute, but I came back to see

SNW is back and it's still pretty good. Last week's episode was the Muppet episode and it was beyond delightful. I'm gonna be sad when the show ends. It feels like they've still got plenty to do with this cast.

I've come full circle yet again on my perpetual, cyclical franchise rewatch where I'm starting TNG again. I've played with the idea for a long time, but now I think I'm going to finally do it: meticulously document how "useful" Deanna Troi is. Because while I freely admit the writers clearly didn't always know what to do with her character, I always felt the "useless" label that fans have thrown at the character for my entire life to be informed more by latent misogyny and toxic masculinity than anything real in the text of the show.

I think I know how I'll rate things. A simple point system where she'll get 1 point for positively contributing to the solution of whatever weekly dilemma, and maybe like a half point if her contributions begin and end with "sensing" an adversary's intentions/mood. So if all she does is say, "I sense deceit" then that's a half point. But if she gives advice or analysis of any kind, that's a full point for the episode.

My only question is, do I do the same for the rest of the main cast so we have control groups/points of reference?

I haven't posted on TT in a hot minute, but I came back to see your SNW opinions. I haven't started S4 yet, but excited for me to have time for it.

Have to say, been missing Academy and sad it's ending. Feel it has the most potential.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I haven't posted on TT in a hot minute, but I came back to see your SNW opinions. I haven't started S4 yet, but excited for me to have time for it.

I am still having a good time with SNW on a weekly basis. But I think the show has lost a little bit of its shine. Not every episode this season has been a 10/10 banger. Which is not the end of the world, but feels weaker compared to the first season which was wall-to-wall incredible. I think part of it is that some of this season's (and last season's) gimmick/genre-episodes fell short a little. But I think also there's a little fatigue going on as well.

I read someone online say that SNW was following the same path as Community did as a show, and I kinda can't fault or argue against that. Community's first season felt so unique and fresh and was groundbreaking television. But it kind of peaked at the paintball episode. Because after that episode, the show kept relying more and more on gimmick episodes, until it was oops all gimmicks, all the way down. And SNW kinda feels like that right now. Every episode this season has relied on a gimmick or has been a genre-episode. And while individually each episode has been entertaining at the very least, on the whole I think it's suffering from the gimmicks feeling too frequent/routine. If every episode is a special episode, then no episodes feel special anymore, you know? SNW could stand to have a few extra episodes thrown in between that are slower and more chill and just a regular episode of Star Trek. Like a "Data's Day" or one of the Jake & Nog fetch quest episodes that DS9 had on occasion.

The best part of this week's episode were the character moments where they were just chillin' and we were learning more about them. The special genre aspects of the episode were largely disposable.

 

[Mothra]

I'm starting to realize that this writing team is generally better at lighter, character-focused comedy episodes than they are at the more dramatic stories. I honestly think Human Best Friend was one of the better ones this season, largely because it spent a good amount of time with characters hanging out, talking, revealing things about themselves. Griffin Incident, on the other hand, was just, ugh.

Both felt like checking off items on a list, but I appreciated HBF moving character arcs forward.

Off-Hour was another standout ep for me, for spending much of the time packing in character moments. It was just TNG's Disaster again, but, well, I liked Disaster.

I think this show will deliver on smaller, low-scale character drama all the way to the end. What worries is me is them trying another big ol' dramatic story like the ghost alien thing last season. It is not their strength.

 

[Daikaiju]

Working through STO myself and mom and I both could have done without Griffen Incident.

 

[JBear]

I think SNW has been dogshit this season, and it's really disappointing. I loved the show initially, but each successive season has been worse than the one before, and now they're finding new bottoms. Griffin Incident was definitely the worst, where it was a bad horror movie where it was immediately clear everyone was hallucinating but it took agonizingly long for the characters to figure that out (that said, conceptually, I do enjoy the idea of a Vulcan stuck in a horror movie and looking at everything dispassionately), but they've all been bad. Off-Hour was a highlight, but even then, I could have done without Chapel's finger snapping off, or Una's fucking leg snapping like a twig with exposed bone. Star Trek used to be a sanitized view of the future, but I find that stuff genuinely upsetting to look at, and that's as a grown-ass adult. If I'd seen it as a child, which is when I became a Star Trek fan, it would have given me bad nightmares. Just because you have the FX chops to show a bunch of gruesome shots, doesn't mean you should.

 

[jpfriction]

I’m finding this season better than the last one but no argument from me that the gore is completely unnecessary. Not sure why that is the default on new trek. Riker and Picard melting that bug down was the exception not the rule, people.

 

[Daikaiju]

I’m finding this season better than the last one but no argument from me that the gore is completely unnecessary. Not sure why that is the default on new trek. Riker and Picard melting that bug down was the exception not the rule, people.

I'm going to suspect notes from a higher up "requesting it" until I hear otherwise.