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It really is remarkable how well Mario 64 codified the 3D platformer. It's like everyone struggled to figure out how to get their stuff working in 3D well, and Nintendo's like "BAM!" First try.
It's also really interesting to see how well the game guides the player to goals. When I was a kid, it was such a brand new, wide open experience that the game felt huge and there were certain challenges I could never figure out on my own. Now, with decades of playing 3D games, it's easy to see how well guideposted the game is about nudging you in the right direction. Even the 100 Coin Challenges aren't too bad, if you play through all 6 stars on a level, it has already shown you all the areas of the map so you remember where to find coins.
 

Octopus Prime

Mysterious Contraption
(He/Him)
I don't mind the inverted Y Axis for FLUDD (honestly, I prefer it), but the Y and B buttons swapping around whether your climbing a wall or ceiling is... *extremely* annoying; had to redo a small platforming section about half a dozen times because I kept jumping off when I tried to punch a gate, or vice versa.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
I don't mind the inverted Y Axis for FLUDD (honestly, I prefer it), but the Y and B buttons swapping around whether your climbing a wall or ceiling is... *extremely* annoying; had to redo a small platforming section about half a dozen times because I kept jumping off when I tried to punch a gate, or vice versa.
Someone got to Pinna Park or Pianta Village, didn't they? ;)

Ray surfing.
On Wii, yes - on Switch, it actually works pretty well. I had no trouble and even enjoyed it. And yes, I did the green star version and beat it in a minute and a half with a pro controller on my first try (you're given 3 minutes to beat it).
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
I appreciate the little robot telling me I "really worked for it" when I got the 100 purple coins star in the Dreadnaught Galaxy. Thanks, little buddy, it was challenging.
 

Rascally Badger

El Capitan de la outro espacio
(He/Him)
Super Mario Sunshine doesn't really feel like Mario. I've got about 10 shines right now and I am enjoying the game, but it feels more on the level of one of Mario's imitators (like a Billy Hatcher) than a Mario game. Putting it right between two transcendent games doesn't do it any favors.
 

4-So

False is the dawn that promises anything
I was thinking about that yesterday and it occurred to me there's no joy in running around with Mario in Sunshine. In both SM64 and Galaxy, there's a kind of joy in just running around with Mario, exploring the 3D space with the repertoire provided. But Sunshine seems almost too complicated because of FLUDD; it's no longer fun to just traverse the space, having to stand still to spray is a weird mechanic because it stops forward momentum, water becomes a resource to manage, so on. It feels like something that should be in a different game than a 3D Mario title. In that regard, and It could just be me, but it seems like some of Sunshine is a prototype for Luigi's Mansion, although the opposite is true since Luigi's Manson came first. Maybe the gadgets should have stayed there.
 

jpfriction

You'll never take my hat away
I dunno, always feels pretty good to do a side jump to wall jump to jetpack to reach some out of the way place. Still a pretty mobile game.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
I love moving around in Mario Sunshine. You can do some really acrobatic stuff in it. There has even been a few times in Galaxy where I think to myself "I wish I had FLUDD right now" although yes, I know it wouldn't work in Galaxy.
 

MCBanjoMike

Infamous third lava dolphin
(He/him)
As someone who is new to Sunshine, my thoughts on whether the movement is good or bad are...it's both? The jetpack movement is neat, but imprecise in a way that can be frustrating (and I'm still in the early levels where the platforming isn't too tricky). Stuff like sliding on water is pretty fun, but your basic running and jumping controls feel clumsy. I definitely haven't loved the FLUDD-less stages so far because it feels like Mario is missing some of his most important moves. Also, I really wish that you could use your alternate nozzle by just pushing a button, rather than switching over to it and then shooting water. I'm getting better at switching over to the hover nozzle mid-jump and using it, but it's still harder than it needs to be. Plus, the fact that you can only engage the hovering once per jump SUCKS. I keep wanting to feather the hover to get better control, and every time I try I just crash to the ground. That's pretty frustrating in a game where most of the challenge comes from finding ways to gain altitude, at least in the stages I've played so far.
 

Dracula

Posts: 52,928
(He/His)
As soon as the third floor of the castle was available to me, I rushed right the heck up there and cleared out Rainbow Ride and Tick-Tock Clock and the Wing Cap bonus level, all for the first time ever, suck it Kid Dracula! I can smell that 120th star.
 
The movement in Mario Sunshine can be an absolute joy when mastered. I'm pretty sure I wrote at length about it once on the old forum and I doubt I could recapture the notions with any amount of lucidity. It came about after playing Sunshine and Galaxy back to back.

In the context of all Mario games, its movement now stands out more now that the majority of Mario games returned largely to the set established by Mario 64. But at the time, Mario 64 was the only bar by which it was judged and so it was allowed to be different if it wanted.

Now the difficulty comes in the latecomer trying to adapt to what it asks when bringing the preconceived control notions in from other games. I won't argue there's a learning curve and maybe even a learning wall at some point. For me, once comfortable with the controls to the point where Mario can be made to do what I am thinking, I again find it to be a joy.

I find the ultimate proof of this to be in the speedrunning arena. Speedruns of Mario Sunshine are fantastic ballets of movement precision and momentum in a way that I don't think Galaxy is capable of.

One man's opinion on strictly the movement of the game.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
The movement in Mario Sunshine can be an absolute joy when mastered. I'm pretty sure I wrote at length about it once on the old forum and I doubt I could recapture the notions with any amount of lucidity. It came about after playing Sunshine and Galaxy back to back.

In the context of all Mario games, its movement now stands out more now that the majority of Mario games returned largely to the set established by Mario 64. But at the time, Mario 64 was the only bar by which it was judged and so it was allowed to be different if it wanted.

Now the difficulty comes in the latecomer trying to adapt to what it asks when bringing the preconceived control notions in from other games. I won't argue there's a learning curve and maybe even a learning wall at some point. For me, once comfortable with the controls to the point where Mario can be made to do what I am thinking, I again find it to be a joy.

I find the ultimate proof of this to be in the speedrunning arena. Speedruns of Mario Sunshine are fantastic ballets of movement precision and momentum in a way that I don't think Galaxy is capable of.

One man's opinion on strictly the movement of the game.
Make it two.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
I vaguely remember having a lot of fun with Marios movement in Sunshine, after learning it for some time. You can really expand your jumps nicely, just by using FLUDD at the end.
 

muteKi

say "fish don't exist" to my face, motherfucker
I find the ultimate proof of this to be in the speedrunning arena. Speedruns of Mario Sunshine are fantastic ballets of movement precision and momentum in a way that I don't think Galaxy is capable of.
The fact that 64 and Sunshine preserve momentum across actions in a way that the Galaxy spin-jump explicitly doesn't is an interesting aspect to their design. I think it'd be more accepting of it if those games had freer jump mechanics, which is why I think Odyssey winds up feeling so much significantly better to play despite not being a substantially different moveset overall. Something like the dive feels good to use in the abstract, unless you overshoot/mis-angle the small platform you're trying to jump toward and wind up falling into the abyss. In that sort of case in Sunshine you wind up probably needing to use the hover nozzle to correct yourself -- in which case I wind up preferring the controls in Galaxy since correcting with the spin winds up being more immediate.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Super Mario Galaxy - on Switch - might be perfect.

...or as close to perfect as a Mario game can get, anyway (not having played Odyssey yet, though I think that's next). Taking away having to point the Wiimote at the screen constantly in favor of some (admittedly weird at first) controller movement is much easier and more comfortable to play. The level design is incredible - there's not a single wasted or bad star, and I just got all 120. They even made the "collect 100 coins" levels fun by either giving you a time limit or a condensed area to find them all in. They fixed the motion control level BS - the manta ray is fun now! The rolling around on a ball levels are fun (though I suppose they could be a little more generous with checkpoints in those levels, but that feels like nitpicking). The only other nitpick I can even think of is I wish the hub level were either smaller or quicker to get around, but even then it's not bad at all. The graphic design is incredible, it looks great in HD, it sounds fantastic as always, and is bursting with ideas and new stuff to do almost constantly.

What a game. Next time I boot it up I'll play through it as Luigi.
 
I'm curious to know more about how the manta ray and the ball levels are improved, if anyone is able to put it into words.

Does it just feel like you've given a little more direct control over what's happening, basically?
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
A joycon's accelerometer is more sensitive than a Wii remote's, so you can more reliably make subtle motions. But they didn't adjust the physics at all.
 

MCBanjoMike

Infamous third lava dolphin
(He/him)
Also I find the gyro movement to be less twitchy than with a Wiimote, so I'm less likely to make an unwanted movement. It's nice! But I also never found those levels to be particularly aggravating.
 

Daikaiju

Rated Ages 6+
(He, Him)
Huh.... So the Skeleton outfit and the Mushroom Kingdom's Crazy Caps shop are references to Super Mario Galaxy. Interesting.
 

Dracula

Posts: 52,928
(He/His)
119 stars. Just gotta get the one in the last Bowser level. Then the demons shall be appeased.
 
There is only one bad thing about movement in sunshine and thats that you cant wall jump out of a hover. Other than that i was kind of marveling at how great the movement is. Like i think it may be the peak of mario just freely moving around and im no where near getting used to the tricks and momentum. Its just windy and smooth and all these other things.
the necessity of water is a little annoying though because they are just dead zones for the movement generally too. Its never bad but compared to everything you can do on land and air being stuck in the water feels like punishment. Most of the time it kind of is anyway
 
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