• Welcome to Talking Time's third iteration! If you would like to register for an account, or have already registered but have not yet been confirmed, please read the following:

    1. The CAPTCHA key's answer is "Percy"
    2. Once you've completed the registration process please email us from the email you used for registration at percyreghelper@gmail.com and include the username you used for registration

    Once you have completed these steps, Moderation Staff will be able to get your account approved.

Star Trek: Picard - Make It So Engage Earl Grey Hot

SpoonyBard

Threat Rhyme
(He/Him)
On the topic of season 3 character deaths, IGN (I know) had another video following up their 'why Patrick Stewart had to be wrong' video, this time featuring Terry Matalas, who confirms some interesting details., namely that the original plan for Ro was for her to have been beamed off the shuttle at the last moment by the Changelings, and then in the finale there would be a scene were we see all the captured Federation crew, with Tuvok, and Picard would have been shocked and delighted to see Ro among them. And, as for Shelby, Matalas explicitly states that he told the actress if he gets to do his spinoff 'she's coming back', since we didn't actually SEE her die onscreen he doesn't consider her dead. So even though none of that was seen onscreen, it's something to consider with how Terry Matalas writes.

Also, that video has another interesting tidbit re: Data, Originally the last scene with Data and Troi was going to be of Data and Soji connecting. It would have been nice to have her come back, even for one scene, to have them meet, but Spiner had the idea to make it a counselling session with Troi instead which I think does work better for the finale. But I take this as a good sign that if Matalas does get his spin-off he very much does consider some of those lingering plot threads from Picard something to bring back up.
 

Sprite

(He/Him/His)
I hope when Brent Spiner retires he passes the torch to Iso Briones to play each and every Soong.
 
Thanks for the read Mothra. I get where you're coming from. I don't agree with most or even all of it lol. I won't break down every point of contention, especially when most of your criticisms are holdovers from S1&2 and don't have much to do with S3. But these three things are worth addressing as I feel like they almost seem borderline misinformed. Or at the very least, glossing over a lot of texture with a wide brush:

Bleak Future for the Federation
I definitely think it's a fair thing to level at Star Trek in general if you're the kind of fan that really buys into "Gene Roddenberry's Vision" - but it's rather unfair and maybe even misinformed to lay this solely at the feet of nuTrek. Nearly every aspect of what you cite is actually a direct continuation of themes/ideas that first started in the Rick Berman Era, in shows/episodes that are widely beloved by fans. I'd actually argue that PIC S1-3 is actually about atoning for the sins of the Berman Era by addressing the natural consequences of the things you dislike about the setting, and providing an example of how to properly address and overcome them. These things are already in canon - now here's the actual consequences of them and how to fix this problem. I think that's a much more interesting, respectful, and most importantly constructive way to deal with problematic issues of the past that are in canon versus let's just pretend they never happened.

Villains Want Revenge
Kill Your Enemies, Win the Day
When this is every episode and every season, I get why that would feel repetitive and uninteresting. Especially for a franchise like Trek that has thrived while providing alternative sources of conflict. I just disagree with your assertion that this is ALL of Discovery and ALL of Picard.

  • S1 of Discovery introduces a villain in the first episode that's framed and presented like a Big Bad, and then he's immediately killed. An act that doesn't solve the problem of an impending war, but exacerbates it. S1 of DIS ends with its main characters refusing to commit an act of genocide, and instead reaches out to end the war through compromise. And while it's under a certain level of coercion, the end result is actually a stronger and more unified Klingon Empire, united under a central leadership, versus a bunch of ununified raging warlords. A peace that is achieved by both sides setting aside their needs for revenge. The central theme of S1 of Disco is actually the exact opposite of what you're claiming here, where revenge and killing your enemy doesn't solve the problem, just makes it worse.
  • S3 of Discovery has a 'big bad' but they're more the action-set-piece cherry-on-top. Whereas the real meat of the season-long arc is centers around the mystery of solving 'The Burn' - which comes to a head with a story by reaching out to a crashed exile who is scared and alone, and getting them to trust the away team with some good old fashioned interpersonal empathy and diplomatic prowess. Not a lot of people liked that storyline, but I did because flawed as it is, it's at least trying to do something different while also being very faithful to the humanist, pacifist core of Star Trek.
  • S4 of Discovery does not have a 'big bad' at all - it has the UFP confronting a Tier-II Kardashev Scale civilization that doesn't even know they are there, and solving their disagreement with the most Star Trek-ass Star Trek scene ever. There's also a 'villain' (that's more of an antagonist) who is driven by revenge. But they're made to see the futility of their raison d'etre, and repent at the 11th hour in a way that's very positive-value-affirming.
  • PIC S1 has bad guys, but no 'big bad'. The closest thing to a 'big bad' would be Commodore Oh - who is a religious zealot that is convinced to stand down and go away at the end of the season, because she sees the colony of synths stand-down first and defy her vaunted prophecy. Bad guys are killed in service to solving the conflict, but the core conundrum is solved purely through an act of compassion and appeal to empathy. And none of the 'villains' are ever motivated by revenge here. They're motivated by fanatical beliefs that get proven wrong.
  • PIC S2 really only has one villain - Altan Soong. 'Defeating' him solves their dilemma, but they don't murder, or even hurt him. They use ingenuity in an elaborate heist to thwart his plan. This isn't a revenge thing either - just a mad scientist who puts his own ego above everything else. Edit: Oh I totally forgot. There's also the alternate universe Borg Queen who has everyone at their mercy and is basically standing at the doorway to victory, and then relents because of an emotional appeal and a proposed compromise that would give both parties a future. Then there's the fact that while defeating Soong solves the immediate "time is broken" problem, it doesn't solve the "we're trapped in time now" problem - which gets solved by giving Q a hug. And then *snap* back to the present - Picard & Co are given one last chance to redo their mistake in the first episode, and instead of blowing everyone up on accident out of fear and suspicion, Picard uses pathos and his intelligence to realize the Borg Queen he sees in front of him isn't a foe, and cooperates with her to save the Sector. There's a lot of problem solving with non-violent solutions in PIC S2 that people don't give the show credit for.

PIC S3 is probably the only season of nuTrek that stars a bonafide villain out for revenge, that gets solved by making them dead. Both are previous villains who hold a grudge from being defeated in previous Treks from an era most Trek fans these days have no problem with. The Borg Queen in particular, as the 'big bad' of the show - yes they blow her up. But her biggest thematic defeat does not happen because her ship gets blown up. It happens when Picard defeats his fear of her and assimilation, and convinces his son to leave the collective willingly - an act that shuts down her nefarious plan by itself. It's a spiritual defeat rather than a physical one, and it's a lot more satisfying and textured than you're giving credit to the season for.
 
Last edited:

Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
Yeah I was tempted to respond to Mothra but Wist covered most of what I wanted to say. Pic S3 indeed had a central scenery-chewing big bad in service to the fact that a lot of S3 was modeled on being like a Trek movie, and in that respect she was a huge success. I certainly wouldn't want *all* my Nu Trek to be wall-to-wall amped up stakes and broad villains, but that isn't a feeling I've gotten from most of it at all. Sure there *have* been villains in DISCO, but I feel like there's been just as much if not more of conflicts being resolved by very Trek-like workarounds dealing with complex character backgrounds and motivations as well.
 
Strange duck here who enjoyed S1 of DISCO the most as well. As an aside, don't want the entire franchise to steer into that darkness.
 
Strange duck here who enjoyed S1 of DISCO the most as well. As an aside, don't want the entire franchise to steer into that darkness.
If Discovery S1 was a show that was made right now, and didn’t have to carry the baggage of resuscitating the entire franchise from death by itself, I bet it would fair much better in the court of public opinion. It also was a show that launched at the height of MAGA and whose discourse in the zeitgeist was fundamentally poisoned by bad faith attacks from alt-right trolls. (Not saying anyone here is a troll or was even influenced by that stuff - but it has undeniably been a thing if you go anywhere else on the internet.)
Years from now, with ample hindsight and zero pressure to be the show that has to “save” Star Trek, I trust the common sentiment among the fandom will reverse and become quite favorable. The same way that happens to literally every Star Trek show. Like, it’s kinda maybe already happening? CBR doesn’t put out a think piece like this 3-4 years ago and would instead of settled for rage-bait: https://www.cbr.com/star-trek-renaissance-michael-burnham/
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
Thinking about what parts to spoil is annoying, so have a a few spoiler blocks.

After a break in the middle, for no real reason, I just binged the rest. Great season, as a whole. This felt like the TNG movie I would have liked and never got (I never cared much for First Contact [that was it's name, right?], but would probably enjoy the others more now? No idea). Not big on Star Trek movies, I will always prefer that franchise in serialized format, so this is a big praise from me. I didn't expect getting so emotional, when they get back to the Enterprise, and we see how she looked inside. Beautiful. Having everyone unite was great. It feels like a great sendoff.


Loved seeing this crew facing off against some of the changelings, that was a lot of fun. Seeing them beat them and fighting a final time against the Borg was great.


It's some time since I watched S3, but didn't the Borg give up, and make peace with the Federation? Was this a different part of the collective? What did I forget here?


I'm glad Q didn't really die, and is just alive and well. Never quite sat right with me, not getting an explanation about his illness, or whatever it was.


Totally here for a new series with captain Seven. I don't care much about the other members of the crew at the moment, but they have time to grow on me. Even Jack, with his accent. Sorry, I know it's me, but I hate listening to him. No fault of his.

Gripe regarding Jack: While the reunion was awesome, Jack didn't work for me. At all. I found the character boring, and I really dislike, how Picard, for some reason, totally needed a son in his life, or whatever. He has a family, and I hate how we are still at "blood family is more important than chosen family, and there is some magic bond. And deep down, we all want children, right? Right??!!!" or whatever. I mean, he stopped working for Star Fleet, because he thought they sold out, didn't he? Not because he felt something was missing.

I might expand on this some time later, when everything has settled, but I'll leave it at that, for now.

Man, thinking back on the other seasons, this show went places. All these characters that came and went. It's a weird show. I'm glad it happened, and I don't mind the Weird, just saying. Also, DISCO, which I want to watch through next, is also really weird, and a clusterfuck, if I remember correctly (at least the first two seasons, but it's a long time since I watched them). It's nice to be a Trek fan. There is so much of it, at the moment.
 
I did read a good article on that exact subject, re: Jack, and yeah, I think it's just the idea of Jean-Luc needing a biological son to feel "complete" really went against his whole arc in TNG. It's actually one of the things about Generations I liked, this struggle he went through of feeling like he had to "carry on the legacy", and coming to realize that making a difference in the here and now was his true legacy.

I did like that this gave Beverly a good amount of dramatic content to show her acting chops again, so that was a positive.
 
lol I had the opposite read on the character. Next time y'all rewatch TNG. Really pay attention to three things:
1) Anytime Picard has to interact with children - the guy LOVES kids. He's just deeply uncomfortable with them, which slowly wears off as the show progresses. There's a reason why his idea of bliss in the Nexus takes him to a family full of children (and a doting wife that looks like Beverly.) And there's a reason why the writers put Picard on a ship full of children as one of the original conceits of the show.

2) Anytime Picard and Beverly interact - especially in Season 1 and Season 7. The will-they-won't-they aspect of these two are intense. I want to say there are more scenes of these two eating romantic breakfasts together and eye-fucking each other than there are the infamous poker games in TNG.

3) Anytime Picard and Beverly have a love interest - the show will always, ALWAYS, without fail, bring the other into the episode so that we can see how they react to the turn of events. And every time, they'll say something dismissive on the outside, and but then have that look in their eyes that they care deeply and are jealous, but insist on taking the high road and being a supportive friend.

Picard is a desperately lonely character who craves love and family, but denies himself it because of duty, honor, emotional hang ups, etc. The 'found family' aspect is an important part of his character, but it isn't one he fully embraces until the very end of TNG. And while these people are his family, they're also tied to his job and won't be in his life nearly as much if that job changes. Like say if his first officer and councilor goes off on their own to start their own family on their own ship, or if his robo-man-son sacrifices his immortal self to save him. His 'found family' disperses to the winds to lead their own lives in between the films and PIC, and PIC S3 is just as much about him reconnecting and fully embracing that found family as much as his new biological one - which btw, comes as a direct result of that found family. It's all intertwined. And as someone who grew up deeply invested in these characters, their journeys, and their happiness, it thrilled me to no end to see Picard explore his final frontier - opening himself to allow himself that which he denied himself his whole life.
 

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
LttP because I was late to finishing because I still don't like this show very much! I agree with pretty much everything Mohtra has said, and am glad to see that I'm not alone in thinking that Picard has been and continues to be disappointing schlock. S3 is disappointing schlock with a heaping helping of fanservice that helps hide that fact, and I'm here for it! I'll take a disappointing show that's pandering to me any day over a disappointing show that's not (and holy hell is this show pandering to me, since TNG is literally my favourite TV show), since I can then shut my brain off and have a good time, but I'd still rather have a good show instead. I'm happy that so many folks seem to disagree with me and genuinely enjoyed this season, but SNW (and to a lesser extent, Lower Decks) continue to be the only Nu-Trek that I think are satisfyingly carrying on the legacy of the franchise.
 

Exposition Owl

more posts about buildings and food
(he/him/his)
lol I had the opposite read on the character. Next time y'all rewatch TNG. Really pay attention to three things:
2) Anytime Picard and Beverly interact - especially in Season 1 and Season 7. The will-they-won't-they aspect of these two are intense. I want to say there are more scenes of these two eating romantic breakfasts together and eye-fucking each other than there are the infamous poker games in TNG.

3) Anytime Picard and Beverly have a love interest - the show will always, ALWAYS, without fail, bring the other into the episode so that we can see how they react to the turn of events. And every time, they'll say something dismissive on the outside, and but then have that look in their eyes that they care deeply and are jealous, but insist on taking the high road and being a supportive friend.

Yeah. Incidentally, during the "Ready Room" making-of episodes with Wil Wheaton, both McFadden & Stewart and Sirtis & Frakes talked about how they were pushing hard for their characters' respective romances against headwinds from TNG's producers. I thought that was interesting.

Also,

Spiner had the idea to make it a counselling session with Troi instead which I think does work better for the finale.
I loved this, and I thought it was such a delightfully Brent Spiner idea for a scene.
 
Top