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Sonic 3 & Knuckles: One game, two games, three games, or five games?
- Thread starter Kazin
- Start date
Here's the arguments as I see them:
Two games: Two cartridges, two games.
One game: It's Sonic 3 & Knuckles. It doesn't matter that you've put multiple cartridges into the system; once you turn on the Genesis, it's firing up one piece of software.
Three games: Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic 3 & Knuckles. If you have both cartridges (which you must in order to play Sonic 3 & Knuckles), then you can play any of the three games.
I'm least persuaded by the two-game argument. It's one game or three, and I lean one: sure, you can play any of the three, but Sonic 3 & Knuckles is listed as one of those three options. It's one game.
Two games: Two cartridges, two games.
One game: It's Sonic 3 & Knuckles. It doesn't matter that you've put multiple cartridges into the system; once you turn on the Genesis, it's firing up one piece of software.
Three games: Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic 3 & Knuckles. If you have both cartridges (which you must in order to play Sonic 3 & Knuckles), then you can play any of the three games.
I'm least persuaded by the two-game argument. It's one game or three, and I lean one: sure, you can play any of the three, but Sonic 3 & Knuckles is listed as one of those three options. It's one game.
I see it as three games.
Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles each have their own beginning and end, and even some unique cutscenes when played separately, as well as other unique features. Then, of course, there's the combined version that changes things further.
Just off the top of my head, Sonic 3 has three playable characters (Sonic, Tails, and Sonic & Tails; not counting multiplayer mode), seven Chaos Emeralds, and a unique final boss.
Sonic & Knuckles has two playable characters (neither of which is Tails), a unique opening cutscene for Knuckles to establish his story, and seven Chaos Emeralds. I can't remember if it has any unique bosses, but I don't think it does? Also, no battery save.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles has four playable characters (Sonic, Tails, Sonic & Tails, and Knuckles), has a narrative through line that carries through all levels seamlessly (but no intro for Knuckles in his campaign), 14 Chaos Emeralds, and incidentally, I think Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles each just have Super Sonic, while S3&K has Super Sonic, Super Tails, Hyper Sonic, and Hyper Knuckles.
Plus, S3&K changes some of Sonic 3's music, and as mentioned, removes Sonic 3's final boss from Sonic's campaign.
It's three different, but similar, experiences. I guess if you're the sort who considers all versions of a fighting game like Street Fighter II or 3, or Mortal Kombat 3 and Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 as one game, then sure. But that's taking a really narrow, reductive view of things.
Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles each have their own beginning and end, and even some unique cutscenes when played separately, as well as other unique features. Then, of course, there's the combined version that changes things further.
Just off the top of my head, Sonic 3 has three playable characters (Sonic, Tails, and Sonic & Tails; not counting multiplayer mode), seven Chaos Emeralds, and a unique final boss.
Sonic & Knuckles has two playable characters (neither of which is Tails), a unique opening cutscene for Knuckles to establish his story, and seven Chaos Emeralds. I can't remember if it has any unique bosses, but I don't think it does? Also, no battery save.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles has four playable characters (Sonic, Tails, Sonic & Tails, and Knuckles), has a narrative through line that carries through all levels seamlessly (but no intro for Knuckles in his campaign), 14 Chaos Emeralds, and incidentally, I think Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles each just have Super Sonic, while S3&K has Super Sonic, Super Tails, Hyper Sonic, and Hyper Knuckles.
Plus, S3&K changes some of Sonic 3's music, and as mentioned, removes Sonic 3's final boss from Sonic's campaign.
It's three different, but similar, experiences. I guess if you're the sort who considers all versions of a fighting game like Street Fighter II or 3, or Mortal Kombat 3 and Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 as one game, then sure. But that's taking a really narrow, reductive view of things.
As the founder of Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles Awareness Month, my position is that it is one game, and should always be identified as one game.
Becksworth
Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
One game and a stand alone expansion. Like Xenoblade 2 and the Torna Expansion. They can be separate, stand alone physical media, or a singular experience depending on how you look at it.
Honestly, it's fascinating to me, whichever way this poll goes. I legit have always thought of it as one singular game, and thought that an uncontroversial opinion. Shows what I know! Lol
It's odd, too, because I was of those weird kids where I only had the Sonic & Knuckles half. But I knew, even back then, it was incomplete! (imo)
It's odd, too, because I was of those weird kids where I only had the Sonic & Knuckles half. But I knew, even back then, it was incomplete! (imo)
This is why I gotta put it to a public vote because I'd not even considered this lmao. Five has been added to the poll!
Becksworth
Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
The Core Game, the Expansion, and the Bonus Game: Today we will be discussing trinitarian doctrine and how it relates to Sonic the Hedgehog 3.
I think my final answer is one Game that coexist as three co-equal titles.
I think my final answer is one Game that coexist as three co-equal titles.
To quote the funniest post on the other forum re: this topic:
I quote Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Second Part of the Second Part, Question 201 (“& Knuckles”), Article 3.
Objection 1. It seems that Sonic 2 & Knuckles does consist of a single game. For the game possesses a title screen. Augustine notes that any game that has a title screen constitutes a discrete text, whether that title screen exists in a separate cartridge or in a collection. The unity of Sonic 2 with Sonic & Knuckles through Lock-On Technology, creating a game with its own title screen, thus constitutes a new game.
Objection 2. Further, the ROM that is loaded during that same lock-on process is a separate ROM. Gregory says, “A separate ROM is a bliss unto the hand of the righteous, for lo, each ROM is a new game, like each prayer an act of faith.” Therefore, Sonic 2 & Knuckles constitutes a new game.
Objection 3. Further, the Philosopher poses the following thought experiment: let us suppose that Sonic 2 & Knuckles were not a game. If that were so, then its constitutive parts could also not be a game. Yet we know that Sonic the Hedgehog 2 is a game. We know that something has been added to it which makes it no longer just Sonic the Hedgehog 2. It stands to reason that the result is a game and that game is not just the parts that constitute it. Sonic 2 & Knuckles constitutes a new game.
On the contrary, Tully says, “Don’t come in here claiming that a game that has never had a standard release is its own game. Carthago delenda est.”
I answer that, while it makes sense that Sonic 2 & Knuckles could have been its own game, if it were released as such, the absence of any kind of standard release or box makes Sonic 2 & Knuckles a version of the games it draws from (Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles) rather than a standalone game. Having a box or standalone digital release would make its status as its own game obvious. But later releases have not treated Sonic 2 & Knuckles as its own game, unlike Sonic 3 & Knuckles (see Article 2 of this Question). In the absence of that treatment, we must attend to how it looks and plays.
A version of a game is one that has been patched or otherwise iterated upon while retaining the core of what it is. Sonic 2 & Knuckles is basically Sonic 2 with very little changed: Knuckles is added and a few other small changes are made. Otherwise, it plays the same. Even the full title (Knuckles the Echidna in …) superficially added to the usual Sonic 2 title screen signals the additive nature of this version. Knuckles is added to an existing game. Thus, it makes sense to consider this a content update of Sonic the Hedgehog 2.
Reply to Objection 1. Games have long had title screens within the main game that is a gag, an easter egg, or otherwise a twist. (See, e.g., Bravely Default: Flying Fairy’s later-chapter title screen). The existence of this title screen only suggests they are playing on the conventional Sonic 2 title, not that it’s a new game.
Reply to Objection 2. A ROM is a technical way to load the game on a cart if certain conditions (locking on) are met. It may load a version of the same game as well as a different game, depending on the context. Here, the context does not establish that this is a separate game.
Reply to Objection 3. The logic holds that Sonic 2 & Knuckles is a game because Sonic 2 is a game. However, that does not show that Sonic 2 & Knuckles is a separate game. The additive property does not mean that what is added forms a different game, only that it forms a different version to a game.
Holy Shit
I suppose going by the letter of the question (whereas before, I believe I interpreted the spirit of the question), yes, Sonic 3 & Knuckles is one game.
However, if you separate Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles, then you have two games.
As such, Sonic the Hedgehog 3 is one game.
Sonic & Knuckles is one game.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles is one BIG game.
And to that last point, Sonic 3 & Knuckles is only one game comprised of two smaller games, as there is no way to access the individual Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles games when combined.
I want to hang out with the person who wrote that post. They really know their Thomas.
Becksworth
Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
Technically, there are multiple different iterations of Blue Sphere depending on which game you lock into Sonic & Knuckles.
Intriguing. I went to the Sonic Wiki to look into this further, and what I found rocked me to my core.
I see it all so clearly now. My life as it was before this point is, and always was, irrelevant. I was born to become a vessel for this knowledge.
Let me amend my earlier statement: Sonic 3 & Knuckles is actually one hundred twenty eight million sixteen thousand (and four) games:
- Sonic 3
- Sonic & Knuckles
- Sonic 3 & Knuckles
- Sonic 2 (featuring Knuckles from the Sonic the Hedgehog series)
- 128,016,000 distinct versions of Blue Sphere
I draw the line here. Blue Sphere individual levels do not a different game make. That's like saying if you take a different route through a Sonic level, that your new route makes your copy of that Sonic game an entirely new game. No, this is not because I don't want to edit the poll one hundred and twenty eight million+ times as we decide this lmao
I guess now we have to determine what a "game" is.
A miserable pile of—
Becksworth
Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
Well, according to Wikipedia there were 880 officially created Genesis and Mega Drive titles, which is more manageable but still an awful lot of poll choices.
I wonder - what would happen if you locked in another copy of Sonic & Knuckles?
i honestly don't know what more you could hope for.