Shining Force - The Thread of Great Intention

[Kazin]

Seems to! I like it a lot.

I found another tie-in with Shining Force III, this time in terms of graphics. Below is a statue found in the Tower of Illusion dungeon, the one I'm in now (which was a huge pain in the ass to get into, btw - I looked up the answer. You walk around this area a certain way and it opens. The clues are cryptic and the order you do it in is not clear. Thankfully, once you've done it a single time, you don't have to do it again). This is the statue in Shining the Holy Ark:

This is one of the Great Priests in Shining Force III:

These guys are not explained in depth in Shining Force III - there are good and evil ones, it seems. The one above helps you, but you fight three "evil" ones later on. So you know, that's all neat. Apparently at the end of the dungeon I'm in, I'm going to "evolve" which was a plot point in Scenario 3 of Shining Force III - what's weird is, if it's true that I "evolve" at the end of Shining the Holy Ark here, that kind of contradicts what happens in Shining Force III. The grey haired kid in the photo above, for example, is supposed to be the only person in 1,000 years that can (or has) evolve(d). I suppose it's possible that I won't evolve at the end of this dungeon, or that everybody in Shining the Holy Ark dies or something at the end, I dunno, but I find this all pretty interesting, seeing how the games do and don't die together. The other problem, of course, is I'm dealing with a translation from Sega in the 90s and a fantranslation from Shining fans twenty years later, so there could be discrepancies that weren't there originally. Who knows!

 

[Kazin]

Yeah, I definitely got evolved at the end of that dungeon. Maybe I'm misremembering or misunderstood the details of Shining Force III's process... Of course, in that game, the protaganists were never possessed by weird alien things that I can recall lol

Great dungeon, though. Very large, and just the right amount of complex. Boss popped up out of nowhere and was punishing, though. I was able to beat it first try, but was running up against my healer (finally some decent multi-character healing!) running out of MP. Only Doyle ended the battle dead, but I had to revive Akane at one point too.

I appear to be going back to the first dungeon of the game to finish it out. I'm sure I'll get teleported to hell or something in there, I guess, since there have been no teleport puzzles so far, though there have been spinners.

 

[Kazin]

Cleared!

I am, to my eternal shame (kidding), slightly slower than the average howlongtobeat playthrough (apparently it's roughly 29 hours, not 25 like I said in an earlier post). Ah well! I grinded a little bit for the final boss, since it felt like I could beat him if I had juuuust a bit more HP. Despite beating the penultimate boss at a poor time (right when someone died and another person got poisoned), I was able to get things together, use my MP regen items wisely, and beat the final boss on my second try without any major issues.

I really liked this game a lot! It's well balanced, difficultywise. I didn't think I was ever over or underleveled, and yet the random battles pretty much always had to keep me on my toes, even if the turn to turn decision making wasn't all that deep (lots of single target attacks, but I had to watch out to make sure half my team didn't get put to sleep or get confused or whatever, which happened often enough to not make me lose interest in each battle). I wish you got more team members earlier, is really my only slight complaint with the game, but it's really not that bad. If anything, a button to just, expend MP to heal everyone to full automatically would have shaved a decent amount of the time off the first half of the game, since you really do want to keep people topped up. It's touch and go when you just have three party members.

I'm glad I finally played through it, though. It didn't really add anything to my understanding of what the heck happened in Shining Force III, it just seems like a sidestory. I still do not know if Arthur ends up growing a second pair of legs and ending up in the world of Shining Force III or not. I also wonder if he's like, Gracia's dad or something, which would explain why he inherits innate Innovator power? Or something? I have no idea.

...Ah. I just did some Googling and found out wtf is up with Galm. Spoilers for both Shining the Holy Ark and all three parts of Shining Force III:

If you keep the screen on after beating Scenario 3 of Shining Force III, you get a secret, voiced cutscene between Galm and Elise (a character who only shows up in Shining the Holy Ark). It is, for some reason, untranslated in the SF3 fantranslation, not that I kept my game on long enough to see it lol:

Elise: Well done, Galm.
Galm: What are you talking about?
Elise: Quit acting innocent.
Galm: ...
Elise: To eliminate the eyesore Bulzome, you guided that Enrich boy's fate onto the track you laid. You even aided the Expedition, didn't you?
Galm: If I say that's true, what are you really trying to say?
Elise: You really are the most powerful, the most vicious, Vandal of all Vandals.

So I guess Galm wants to be basically the only Vandal left standing? I wonder if there was ever plans to make another game where he takes out Elise or something lol

Anyway. I apparently missed 18 pixies in my playthrough, and I don't know if they count towards your item completion or not (I don't particularly care, it's neat they track that, but this ain't Super Metroid where it's fun finding them all). I opened most of the treasure chests, if not all of them, but I'm sure I missed plenty of items that are hidden in random places you have to search.

God, now I kinda want to play Shining in the Darkness... It is now the one classic Shining game I haven't beaten (besides a complete playthrough of all four chapters of Shining Force CD)...

 

[Sarge]

From the bit I've played of Shining in the Darkness, it's a much more traditional dungeon crawl than StHA. Looks really cool, though, and it's also one that I've had on my list for a long time to eventually play through.

 

[Kazin]

I suppose there's also Shining Wisdom, which I forgot about and have also never beaten because I've always found it super dull.

 

[Sarge]

I hate the running mechanic in that game. Bleh. I'd probably have played more of it otherwise.

 

[Kazin]

Decided to play a few hours of Shining in the Darkness today:

Dug out my graph paper, and look what I found on the top page lmao:

So, you know, that's helpful for at least the first two floors (I have a decent amount of the second floor mapped out too). The game is so grindy, though. There are so many fights. They go by quicker than Shining the Holy Ark, to be sure, but there are times when you fight every step for a bit, which is why I think I've gotten burned out in the past. Ah well, I'll keep trying!

 

[Sarge]

Yep, the encounter rate isn't great! Especially when you just want to explore. I don't remember if there's a spell to repel encounters or not.

EDIT: Apparently so, learned by Pyra eventually. If it's like Dragon Quest, it may be less than effective, though...

EDIT 2: Huh, they really did follow the Dragon Quest II party template, didn't they?

 

[Kazin]

Yeah, I don't think you get any additional party members, but I sure haven't played all that far in the game to know for sure. There doesn't seem to be any way mechanically to switch your party around, so it's probably just these three!

 

[Kazin]

I, er, played a lot of this over the weekend:

The upper right area of this map has been pretty much completely filled in, now that I have passed the Four Trials and can access the Labyrinth Proper, as the King calls it. In addition to the Cave of Strength (which I'd already mapped), I beat these three floors:

I enjoyed them all, with a big exception for the Cave of Wisdom. You're given two map items to look at whenever you want, that detail where the holes are in the two big areas where there's a lot of them, but like the Wisdom Seed item and the View spell, they seem to not be oriented the way I've drawn these maps. I think they're rotated 90 degrees counterclockwise? In any case, it's too confusing to use, so I rely entirely on my own map, and... yeah, finding all those holes and mapping them was a huge pain. Every time I fell down a hole, I just referred to an online map of the basement, since all the basement areas are very small, I just wanted to figure out where I'd emerge so I didn't have to Egress every time I fell down a hole.

Found a piece of Mithril in there, though, and got what I think is the best weapon possible for Milo, at least, so that's nice. He now hits harder than my hero, which probably won't last long as he can equip much stronger weapons according to the FAQs, not that I know where they are or how far away I am from them.

The second floor of the Labyrinth Proper has a different color palette and, FINALLY, different music, which is lovely. I'm going to try to push through and beat this, but if there's a bunch of pitfalls (especially if they mix in spinners, which weren't bad at all since they animate in such a way that you can tell which direction you're going in, but combined with holes they'd be infuriating), I may just have to refer to an online map, as much as I'd like to map this whole game out myself. That crap just gets old. Still... I find myself charmed by the game. The animations of the monsters, while greatly expanded on in Shining the Holy Ark, are still cute here, and though some enemies in particular are a huge pain to deal with, their sprites are at least delightful to look at, imo.

 

[Kazin]

Unless the final floor and final boss give me fits, the only two not very fun parts of Shining in the Darkness are the very very beginning when you have to grind a bit to level up your hero enough to beat the miniboss to get your other two party members (who you then have to grind up a bit to enable them to survive the slightest breeze) and the Cave of Wisdom, which is a pitfall nightmare if you're mapping the game yourself (which I was). Honestly for the Cave of Wisdom, I'd suggest following an online map to avoid the sheer frustration I had with that part, and it'd probably be fine. As of last night, I have rescued the Princess, obtained the Cell Key (which allows me to unlock like seven-ish doors with treasure chests being them, presumably containing excellent equipment), and other than finishing mapping out the fourth floor of the Labyrinth Proper, all I have left to do is map the final floor and beat the final boss. My characters are level 43, 41, and 42 at the moment, though the fourth and I assume the fifth floors just give you piles and piles of exp (and gold, which... I don't seem to really need at this point, as I've made several pieces of Mithril equipment and have found 2 of the 4 Light equips for the hero, so nothing in the shops comes close to what I have for everyone currently), so I assume if I need to do any leveling to beat the final boss, I'll be able to do so quickly. I may even beat the game tonight, who knows! I'm hoping the game tells me my playtime after the credits, because I have no idea how long I've played so far (I'm playing on the real cart on my 32X, and the game does not, afaik, track your playtime). I've honestly had a lot of fun mapping the game out, and I think once I'm done with the maps, I'll fold them up and put them in the game box in case I ever play through it again.

 

[Sarge]

That you are leaving open the possibility of playing through again is a point in the game's favor. I don't know if I've ever sat down and actually mapped a game of this style. I may have cheated using online maps for something like Shining the Holy Ark, it's been so long I don't remember. I'm pretty sure I went through Arcana legit, though, and somehow muddled through without maps. But I'm pretty sure that game doesn't spring crazy pitfall trips or spinners on you, either.

 

[Kazin]

The only reference I've done to online maps for Shining in the Darkness is for orienting where the starting point is, so I don't start having to tape pages together if a hallway goes off the page lol. This was before I realized each floor - caves of Trials excepted, I think - stack on each other perfectly, so if you enter stairs on one floor, you will arrive exactly one page down (or up as the case may be) on the same exact square you'd been on before. The trouble is, figuring out which way you're facing, which is why I still look up the "start points" for each floor, to prevent mistakes like one I made on the 4th floor yesterday, drawing off the map, forcing me to figure out which way I'd drawn wrong, tearing out the page, and redoing about the quarter of a page I'd filled out already lol

But yeah, it's a pretty good time! Quite mindless - there is almost no story to speak of, it is extremely barebones - but fun. It's forgiving in many ways that surprise me as well - far too late though it is, you do get a medallion that you can place one half of at various points around the Labyrinth that will allow you to warp there for free at any time, which is a delight as it means you don't have to trudge through the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th floors to get to the 5th, for example. You are limited to only having one warp point at a time, though, and you have to physically carry the half of the medallion to the new location whenever you want to move it, so it's not super abusable.

I also forgot to mention the limited item capacity of your team - each character gets 8 slots for items, but that includes their four pieces of equipment (weapon, armor, helmet, and shield), so functionally, you only get 12 slots for items total pretty quickly, and you have to carry around various key items around for pretty much the whole game, so I basically only kept a few Smelling Salts around until Milo learned Antidote 2, which cures paralysis (though I still kept one in case he got paralyzed, because that means he can't cast the spell). You can get around this by literally selling the key items and buying them back at a slight markup, but that is clumsy and sucks imo. Finding a piece of Mithril Ore was amazing, until you realize that you need thousands and thousands of gold to actually use that Mithril Ore, during which time it just sits in your inventory (or you can sell it off, and buy it back for a couple grand later). So yeah, the limited item space sucks. I wish if a character equipped something, it didn't count as part of their inventory, but oh well.

 

[JBear]

Just chiming in to say that you haven't really mentioned the music much, but it might be my favourite genesis soundtrack? That said, the tavern might be my favourite track, so I might be deranged.

Anyway, SitD is a GOAT, and as a dungeon crawling sicko, yes, it's one of the easiest/friendliest entries in the genre.

 

[Kazin]

The music is great! Just like Shining the Holy Ark, though, there is far too little of it. I was thrilled when I got to the 2nd Floor of the Labyrinth Proper (still love that it's called that lol) and the dungeon music changed. Woo!

 

[Kazin]

I beat it! I mapped the whole game (minus the part near the top of the fifth floor I didn't feel like going back and exploring, since I'd already gotten the Mithril Ore up there anyway with the Cell Key, so I filled that part of the map in after the fact lol)!

(spoilers for the final boss sprite) Here is my final party levels right at the beginning of the actual last battle:

Spoiler

And here's basically how it ends lol (spoilers):

Spoiler

I'd say I was pretty overprepared for the final boss, although I found seven (in one battle!) of the Metal Slimes of this game, Crystal Ooze, which give like 30,000 exp each - I was able to kill two of them, and the rest attacked me a bunch and eventually ran. So I gained some levels there, but burned all my MP healing after they kept spamming Freeze 4 so I had to go back to town. The "Peace" spell works, uh, incredibly well, at least at the level I'm at - I only had a few encounters on my way to the final boss, which is kind of a long trek, even with the Medallion at the last possible place you can put it. I was able to find all the Light Equipment for the hero, so he was doing a ton of damage by the end, especially while Boosted. Milo wasn't doing too bad with physical damage either, enough so that I had him attack most of the battle and Pyra heal when needed with the Heal Ring I found, which basically cast Heal 3 which is a pretty big single target heal. I did do a Heal 4 with Milo though, which costs 50 MP (and he only has just under 300 MP total, so use it sparingly!) after a couple of Demon Breath attacks. Still, I was surprised when he went down - I was kind of expecting a giant HP sponge like these types of games usually have. As always, Shining in the Darkness is as friendly as these games get, so long as you're happy to make your own maps! I'll be keeping my maps in the box with the game for sure haha

I think I'm going to move on to Shining Wisdom now, see if I can finally push through that game. I think I'm going to play the European release since that was officially translated by Sega and has "Kazin" in it, and not "Parn" or whatever Working Designs was forced to name him (wtf Sega).

 

[Sarge]

Congrats! Now I'm very curious to see your thoughts on Shining Wisdom.

 

[Kazin]

Congrats! Now I'm very curious to see your thoughts on Shining Wisdom.

Kneejerk reaction to the first fifteen minutes of the game that I've played so far: I hate the weird human gearshift system. Can I just have a run button please? Why do I have to tap B (or X, or Y, or Z, for some reason all these buttons are for running) a bunch to move faster?

 

[Kazin]

Played two and a half hours of Shining Wisdom so far. It's... fine. I've grown used to the dinky little sword attack you have, although I've since gotten a glove that I can shoot for some ranged attacks (very helpful for the spider boss I just beat who jumped around constantly), and currently have the Princess transformed into a Swan following me around. I have to go somewhere in west Odegan to cure her, but that's all I know for now. There is a decent amount of wandering around in this game, which is unfortunate because enemies spawn pretty much the instant you move offscreen. They are, at least, very generous with that healing herbs, so I haven't been in too much danger so far...

But, yeah. It's so far a middling Zelda clone with a weird gearshift acceleration mechanic (they even let you select in the menu whether you want it set to be "Automatic" or "Manual" with a little picture of gearshifts lol). Very strange.

 

[Sarge]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the decision-making process was there. Wonder if there's a patch floating around that would fix that? I didn't see anything right off hand.

That being said, I've gotten weird about improvement patches and such lately. I kind of want to experience the game as it was, at least on a first playthrough.

 

[Kazin]

I have come to like Shining Wisdom. I don't love it, though. I just cleared the Water Labyrinth, which was far more straightforward than the Sand Labyrinth. Figuring out how all the items work - and what they can do when combined with the magic orbs - is kinda neat. Game still controls pretty poorly, though. Even though I got a new sword a few dungeons back, its hitbox is still miniscule. I have no idea how far I am in the game, and I still haven't met Kazin or Sarah. Where the heck are they lol

 

[Kazin]

Alright, I've beaten Shining Wisdom. It is my least favorite Shining game, though it's not horrible or anything. Just tedious often, and frustrating occasionally, with some fun to be had.

I used a FAQ for a couple parts of the game, because I just couldn't be bothered to wander around forever finding a few locations, and since you don't level up at all in the entire game ever, there's not really a point to keep fighting enemies, because all you get, sometimes, for killing them, is cash and health restoring items. And the shop in the game is dire. The only things you can buy are Medical Herbs (heals HP), Angel Wings (returns you to the entrance of the dungeon), and Record Books (allows you to save when you enter a dungeon, so you don't have to trudge back to the dungeon from town, which can be far especially later on in the game). That's it, as far as I can tell. I found a few secret shops near dungeons, and they sold the same stuff. Granted, as you can see above, I missed over half the items in the game, so for all I know there's some shop out there with a sword that actually has a hitbox longer than 3 pixels away from your hero.

Anyway, so the bits I used a FAQ for were the Mirror Labyrinth, which was the nadir of the game imo. You have to switch between mirrored versions of the dungeon to advance, and while you're in the mirrored version, your left and right controls are reversed - but not your up and down ones. It's just tedious. I admit I got a bit enraged when, for some reason, the game froze when I beat the dungeon and healed at the well in the Hobbit Village - forcing me to do the whole goddamn dungeon again. Thankfully, I'd just done it, and it's not too difficult when you know what to do. That is one thing I'll give Shining Wisdom - there is absolutely nothing as intricate or as long as, say, Ocarina of Time's Water Temple, far from it. The closest it came was the final dungeon, which is the other place I used a FAQ for - it's pretty sprawling, and unfortunately, if you screw up trying to get through it, you have to redo several parts, which I can't stand. I just wanted to get the thing done. Shoutout to, seemingly, the only FAQ out there for Shining Wisdom from this guy. It's from 2001 and is formatted as such, but it was a great help specifically for the last dungeon (I could have beaten the mirror dungeon on my own with little trouble, I think, but when I realized the controls were reversed I nope'd right off to GameFAQs lol).

Also, Sarah and Kazin are in this game! I'm not really sure why! Here's most of what they have to say:

^this, at least, charmed me, because it is hinted that Kazin liked Sarah at the end of Shining Force II, while she was clearly in love with Bowie, so she does not return his affections. Kazin here doesn't react to this line lol

After you beat the final boss, they say this:

And that's really it. There's a reference to Pazort (the final boss) knowing Oddeye, somehow:

...but there's really barely any connection to Shining Force II. Kazin and Sarah don't even get facial portraits, which surprises me. Knowing all this, I probably could have played the Working Designs translation, although I wanted to see how Sega would have translated it since Working Designs either wasn't allowed to use the Shining Force II names, or chose not to for some reason.

I can't say I recommend Shining Wisdom unless you're dying for a slightly better than mediocre Zelda clone (kinda) or are an insane classic Shining fan (hi, it's me). Frankly, both Shining Soul games are better than Shining Wisdom. There were several little nitpicks and frustrations that added up for me. Having to slam the B button to get up to max speed constantly was annoying - doubly so because whenever you get hit, the game slows you down. Even once you're up to max speed, you have to hold the B button. The "manual" option in the menu is pointless, too - rather than being able to hold the button down to maintain your speed, you just have to keep slamming it. Maybe if I had an autofire controller, "manual" would be useful? The combat can be so frustrating, sometimes, too. Flying enemies in particular are a huge pain - you can only hit them while they're at your height, but they bob up and down like Medusa heads or something. Also, sometimes, your attacks just whiff. I couldn't figure out what made the game do this - I've killed plenty of these mummies with my sword, game! Why are you giving me the "no damage" noise? I guess I just rolled a 1 or something. I've already mentioned the tiny friggin sword, and the magic spells only being useable when you're at max speed is annoying too.

Music was solid to excellent throughout, though it's not an all-timer soundtrack or anything. The other 90s Shining games all have it beat, I think (well, maybe the non-Final Conflict Game Gear games lol).

I don't hate the game - it had its moments (you are not a monkey nearly enough, for example lol) - but I would be surprised if I played through it again. As is, it's checked off the list, and I'm glad it's over.

 

[Sarge]

Not an, err, shining recommendation, so I'll leave it down my list. There is absolutely value in completing all the games in a particular series, though, especially one as storied as the Shining games. You may have mentioned it before, but have you played the modern games like Shining Resonance Refrain? Are they any good or just generic anime games now?

My brother played the mess out of Shining Force Neo and EXA, but those are kinda secret Record of Lodoss War DC games.

 

[Kazin]

@Sarge I've not played anything beyond Shining Soul II, no. The PS2 games were when the series got bad, is the impression I've gotten over the years. Maybe I'll give them a shot someday, but yeah, they just look like generic anime games to me.

 

[Peklo]

Friends don't let friends play Tony Taka games.

 

[Kazin]

I admit I'm tempted to eventually try them, though my expectations are low. Shining Tears at least looks nice, at least from the screenshots I'm seeing. I remember trying Neo years and years ago and being really bored though. As is, the next Shining game I play is going to be CD, just to finish off the "true" series with the original devs from the 90s (I played Wisdom specifically to save the rest of CD for last, since I figured I would like it better. Turns out I definitely will! I've not played books 3 or 4 of CD). Might be a while before I do that though, I want to play other stuff lol

 

[Kazin]

Alright! So I've just cleared Book 2 of Shining Force CD, which I'd not done before (though I've beaten the Game Gear version several times). I started up Book 3 and am surprised to learn that, as far as I can tell, I am able to use anyone from either of the first two Books in my party in Book 3 - which is good, because a few of the default characters were a bit underleveled lol. I also picked up the museum ticket in Book 2, so if I manage to beat Book 3 I suppose I can try what I've seen described as the hardest battle in the Shining Force series, so that should be fun...

 

[Kazin]

Book 3 wasn't all that hard, though it was pretty fun. I'd say it was about 5 hours long? The hardest battle was the penultimate one (against the shadows of your party, who are identical to you even down to your equipment. I was having a tough time with them, until I tried something - unequip your weapons, and they won't be equipped when you start. Magic is still dangerous, but the four fucking archers I brought with me were useless for them lmao). Depending on how The Museum goes, it looks at least potentially doable... it just depends on whether the enemies can move, particularly the main boss of Book 3. I think if I savescum, I should be able to do that. That'll be tomorrow at the earliest, though, we have to do some housework tomorrow...

 

[Kazin]

Called in sick to work because I woke up feeling terrible, and after a nap, I felt a little bit better and sat down and played though Book 4. I beat it! Hooray! It is, indeed, the hardest Shining Force battle I've played, but mainly because you're limited to the party the game gives you. Egress does nothing but reset the battle - you can't grind, you can't change your party, you can't buy items, etc. Two of my party members - spellcasters - were basically dead weight, even though they held MP regenerating staffs (as did the sole healer you get, who of course leveled up a TON in the battle, eventually learning Aura 4, which I didn't even have in Book 3). The boss enemies all group up in strange groups, forcing you to very methodically advance and try to draw out a straggler or two to take them out, usually to avoid the Demon Breathing enemies, who, scorpion Woldol aside, cannot move, thankfully. That actually was the hardest part of the battle - since that jerk moves around (and is paired up with a physical attacker who isn't too dangerous, but also with a Bolt 3 user), I had to very carefully get the Bolt 3 caster to burn all his MP down while working hard not to lose anyone, and then wait for them to get into juuuuuust the right formation to draw out the scorpion Woldol, who then I basically had to cheese and reset a lot, because if he casts two Demon Breaths in a row, no one could survive. Other than that, though, it was a fairly linear, fun battle, I liked it a lot!

Though, I know very few people will want to do it (and having to unlock it by searching a random well in the fifth battle of Book 2 is super dumb), here's the ending, in full, that you get, up to the credits:

Spoiler

You are then treated to a delightful, unique to this section little credits sequence where it appears the developers drew themselves into the game (sorry about the window reflection in the second picture):

I didn't take pictures of them all, because there's a lot of them and they move around and animate, it's pretty cute. There's a guy playing golf (the executive producer, I believe lol), a guy driving a car around, a guy climbs the tree, and so on. I like seeing the devs have fun with stuff like this, and honestly they have more frames of animation than I'd expect, given how obscure this ending is (I could totally see someone beating the game on Super Hard mode all the way through Book 3 and not knowing about the museum battle because of having to search that one dumb well in Book 2).

And with that, that is THE VERY END of the 90s Shining content. I have now played it all. I love the series, and wish whoever was still at Camelot from these days could make another strategy RPG.

 

[Sarge]

Wow, big props getting through that. I could only get about halfway through before getting wiped. I think some levels carry over from the campaign, though? Felt like portions of my team were dramatically underleveled.