Sekiro

[Paul le Fou]

Congrats! Now for NG+.

I thought Sekiro wouldn't have much replayability for me at first because of the lack of character building, but I played through 4 times to get all the endings because I was just having so much fun with the combat and wanted to keep fighting enemies and bosses. I really need to go back and try out the boss rush mode one of these days.

 

[estragon]

I played just the opening of this, up to the second save statue (past the gate with a guard with a canon or whatever that was) of what seems to be the first real level.

One question: When I encountered the training guy, I jumped straight to step dodging because it was the only thing not in the initial tutorial, but it didn't really seem to dodge anything except the grab move. I then did the earlier ones, and in retrospect I think maybe the step dodging tutorial was supposed to be cumulative with attack and deflect, rather than an independent tutorial just focused on step doging. Because I did it again just deflecting sword swings and just step dodging the grab (which can't be deflected) and then it made more sense.

Is this right, or am I missing something about step dodging? Should I have been able to dodge those sword swings with just that? I found it hard to maintain a distance where the training NPC would attack me, but also where it was feasible to step dodge to avoid sword swings.

Anyway, it feels and looks great! Who knows if I have it in me to get through it or not. I'm not very good at parrying in the Souls games or Elden Rng at at at all, but at least at the start Sekiro's deflect seems to be much more forgiving and possible to consistently pull off for me, presumably at least in part because it's the core mechanic and not just one option.

 

[Ludendorkk]

I played just the opening of this, up to the second save statue (past the gate with a guard with a canon or whatever that was) of what seems to be the first real level.

One question: When I encountered the training guy, I jumped straight to step dodging because it was the only thing not in the initial tutorial, but it didn't really seem to dodge anything except the grab move. I then did the earlier ones, and in retrospect I think maybe the step dodging tutorial was supposed to be cumulative with attack and deflect, rather than an independent tutorial just focused on step doging. Because I did it again just deflecting sword swings and just step dodging the grab (which can't be deflected) and then it made more sense.

Is this right, or am I missing something about step dodging? Should I have been able to dodge those sword swings with just that? I found it hard to maintain a distance where the training NPC would attack me, but also where it was feasible to step dodge to avoid sword swings.

Anyway, it feels and looks great! Who knows if I have it in me to get through it or not. I'm not very good at parrying in the Souls games or Elden Rng at at at all, but at least at the start Sekiro's deflect seems to be much more forgiving and possible to consistently pull off for me, presumably at least in part because it's the core mechanic and not just one option.

Yeah the parrying is much more forgiving and a failed parry will usually lead into a deflection instead of being straight punished. Dodges are much less useful than in Souls, fewer i-Frames, but jumping and running away are big parts of dodging attacks. Sekiro wants you to learn a sort aggressive defensive style if that makes sense.

 

[spines]

i haven't touched my file in a while because i got lost for so long in the same spot, so i'm not an expert. dodging still has iframes in this game, and there are definitely some other large slow attacks you can dodge; i kinda think as a result there's a 3d fighting game thing where sidestepping around someone gets caught easily by their wide slashes? regardless of the specifics, i do think it's not as powerful as souls games or elden ring. there is an upgrade available fairly early which lets you do a special dodge that automatically counters thrusting attacks though, which is really strong.

your description of how the game works is pretty accurate to what i'd say though. if in souls there's a kind of wait -> use preferred defensive option -> counterattack flow, this game tends towards the opposite. attacking is the kind of "default" action if you're close enough, and deflecting (which you can cancel into during some of the attack startup frames) is frequently the most offensively-rewarding answer if you have to defend. the other defensive options like jumping/dodging are often more of a specific reaction to a couple of an enemy's attacks in particular rather than the first thing i would try to figure out. but many of the bosses aren't so easy to close on and pressure obviously, and those feel a bit more "souls" like as a result

 

[air_show]

So a thing that helped me to learn as far as parrying in Sekiro was not to tap, but to hold the deflect button. That way if your timing is off you're still blocking the deflects you miss, which still has a punishment but is way less severe than getting a huge chunk of your health bar sliced off. There are still going to be times where you'll need to tap in rapid succession to deflect a series of strikes but treat each button press like a commitment and you'll be no hesitating in no time.

 

[estragon]

At the moment at least, my biggest struggle is not deflecting a series of sword blows (this is the most intuitive defensive maneuver so far, although I'm sure it gets harder as patterns get more complex), but mostly not yet having internalized my options when I have more than one. Avoiding grabs is fine because at least early on they're clearly telegraphed and you just have to get out of the way in a pretty intuitive way, but I see that 危 and freak out because I haven't learned yet how to read tells about when to jump, when to mikiri, and when to deflect. (The tutorial made it clear what is for what, but as of now I have to think too much to execute consistently.)

Anyway, does anyone have advice about what to spend money on? I expect to keep dying a lot for a while, so if there's anything in particular anyone thinks would be good to stock up on buying from the initial merchant instead of hoarding zeni I'll just lose, I'd appreciate the advice! (I get that coin purses can help me minimize losses, but once those are gone...)

 

[air_show]

Buy whatever's available. Prioritize expensive stuff, especially items that give new abilities. Spend whats left on emblems. I try to never leave an idol with money in my pocket.

 

[karzac]

At the moment at least, my biggest struggle is not deflecting a series of sword blows (this is the most intuitive defensive maneuver so far, although I'm sure it gets harder as patterns get more complex), but mostly not yet having internalized my options when I have more than one. Avoiding grabs is fine because at least early on they're clearly telegraphed and you just have to get out of the way in a pretty intuitive way, but I see that 危 and freak out because I haven't learned yet how to read tells about when to jump, when to mikiri, and when to deflect. (The tutorial made it clear what is for what, but as of now I have to think too much to execute consistently.)

FYI, you never deflect the red kanji. It's always jump, dodge or mikiri.

 

[balder the brave]

I don't think I ever learned to distinguish the different red Japanese symbols. They come up so fast and my English-speaking brain is not sensitive to their appearance.

Instead, you can read the enemy animations and play the odds that big enemies often have a grab and spear enemies always have a stab.

 

[estragon]

FYI, you never deflect the red kanji. It's always jump, dodge or mikiri.

The tutorial by the first temple definitely said to deflect thrust 危 attacks but that the timing was extra hard, and it has you practice doing that. But I guess that's irrelevant as soon as you unlock mikiri (so, like 99% of the game), even if it's technically an option, since it's strictly worse in terms of timing and counterattack potential.

 

[Ludendorkk]

FYI, you never deflect the red kanji. It's always jump, dodge or mikiri.

you can deflect some red attacks but not block them.

At the moment at least, my biggest struggle is not deflecting a series of sword blows (this is the most intuitive defensive maneuver so far, although I'm sure it gets harder as patterns get more complex), but mostly not yet having internalized my options when I have more than one. Avoiding grabs is fine because at least early on they're clearly telegraphed and you just have to get out of the way in a pretty intuitive way, but I see that 危 and freak out because I haven't learned yet how to read tells about when to jump, when to mikiri, and when to deflect. (The tutorial made it clear what is for what, but as of now I have to think too much to execute consistently.)

Anyway, does anyone have advice about what to spend money on? I expect to keep dying a lot for a while, so if there's anything in particular anyone thinks would be good to stock up on buying from the initial merchant instead of hoarding zeni I'll just lose, I'd appreciate the advice! (I get that coin purses can help me minimize losses, but once those are gone...)

Buying coin bags from merchants is a way of effectively banking your coin (though you'll lose a small percentage in arbitrage). Don't cash in the bags you find unless you are about to immediately spend them as well. Smaller items are usually plentiful enough as loot drops unless you burn a ton of them so it's usually best to save up for upgrade items but its better to spend money than lose it of course. Money is in general a lot less important than souls/blood echoes etc. were so try not to sweat it too much.

 

[Adrenaline]

It's possible to deflect some kanji attacks but in my experience it's not worth the risk. Mikiri counter or get out of there.

 

[balder the brave]

Buy whatever's available. Prioritize expensive stuff, especially items that give new abilities. Spend whats left on emblems. I try to never leave an idol with money in my pocket.

Highest priority for me is to buy the gourd seeds. A few merchants have them available.

 

[air_show]

Money is mostly only useful on the first playthrough. Once you've diligently bought every upgrade and weapon money is only there to replenish your emblem supply and when that peaks it's basically worthless, which I presume is why one of the arm upgrades down the line just lets you shoot money as ammunition.

 

[estragon]

Beat the first boss (horse guy). It went really smoothly because it's kind of a gimmick battle and I had the gimmick from exploring thoroughly while trying to build up just one more skill point to buy a more expensive skill before going into the valley area in case I died there, which turned out to be a good choice because the setpiece there definitely killed me once. Even beyond that, the horse guy was extra toned down for me because I had upgraded to the slice mid grapple hook skill with the idea that it might have helped with the red oni because he was grappleable. It turned out not to help with red oni particularly, but it was a huge help for the horse guy. So I kind of lucked into an easy version of the first real boss.

Is there any reason not to just upgrade attack power immediately, or should I just consume those memories whenever I have them?

 

[air_show]

I think not consuming memories for attack power is strictly for challenge run purposes. Use them freely.

 

[karzac]

Other money advice - before going into a boss fight or new area, just spend all your money on as many Spirit Emblems as you can buy

 

[Paul le Fou]

One question: When I encountered the training guy, I jumped straight to step dodging because it was the only thing not in the initial tutorial, but it didn't really seem to dodge anything except the grab move. I then did the earlier ones, and in retrospect I think maybe the step dodging tutorial was supposed to be cumulative with attack and deflect, rather than an independent tutorial just focused on step doging. Because I did it again just deflecting sword swings and just step dodging the grab (which can't be deflected) and then it made more sense.

Dodges are very much not for i-framing through attacks like in Souls games, and aren't really meant for that. Use them to avoid grabs or certain attacks, or step in and out of range, but you can dodge through a sword in this game about as effectively as in real life, so that Souls instinct is counterproductive (and one of the biggest things contributing to many people saying that Sekiro is much harder than the Souls games).

Is there any reason not to just upgrade attack power immediately, or should I just consume those memories whenever I have them?

Use 'em right away, no reason to save them.

 

[balder the brave]

The dodge will give you i-frames, and it can be a good choice against some attacks, but many attacks in Sekiro come at a fast tempo and home in on you. A flurry of sword slashes. If you were to dodge, you might be able to i-frame through the first one, but once you come out of the dodge, all the rest of them are going to get you. You can deflect at a much faster frequency.

 

[Paul le Fou]

Yeah, there are technically some iframes on the dodge, but it's far fewer than in any Souls game, making them really hard to effectively use (even before what you mention with the tempo). Meanwhile, the active frames for the deflect are far more generous, and it leads to the block which is also more effective. I find it best to act like the dodges just don't have iframes at all and only use them for positioning. Stuff like stepping to the side of a vertical attack, avoiding grabs, circling around the enemy for a strike from the side, etc.

 

[Ludendorkk]

Also you don't have stamina so you can just hold down the dodge button and run forever, this is wildly effective at dodging some bosses' attacks

 

[estragon]

The two main things I knew going in were (1) no stamina meter and (2) a real dodge where you need to avoid attacks (rather than dodging into attacks with stylish invincibility that doesn't make very much sense), so that hasn't been too much of issue.

I just wondered if there was maybe some other element of the dodge I was missing because the step dodge tutorial has a lot of attacks that are a lot easier to deflect. But, like I said earlier, I think what's going on there is just that the tutorials are cumulative. You're supposed to dodge in the dodge tutorial when dodging seems like the right thing to do, not every time.

Also you don't have stamina so you can just hold down the dodge button and run forever, this is wildly effective at dodging some bosses' attacks

I definitely just did this to beat Lady Butterfly! I only had 6 of the items to deal with the boss' gimmick, so I didn't want to use them and wondered if I'd need to come back later once I found an area where enemies dropped them regularly. But you can just run from the homing energy blast she makes based on how many illusory warriors you don't manage to kill, so the trickiest part was just that she recovers a lot of stamina damage based on how busy part 2 gets with illusory warriors, the energy blast after, and the occasional minor energy blasts that happen in the background of her normal combos that mean sometimes you need to just focus on staying safe instead of deflecting.

I still do think there's a good chance I get to Genichiro and it turns out I suck too much at rhythm to beat to get to the end with this game, but even if that happens it's been really fun so far. At least to this point, I feel like it's really just a lot more generous with deflection timing than the Souls games are with parries, so maybe it will work out, but maybe that changes.

edit: I guess the third thing I knew going in was (3) there's a boss named Genichiro and a lot of playthroughs end there.

 

[Ludendorkk]

Well he's the guy who took your arm, gonna have to settle that score eventually.

Also the rhythm stuff is overemphasized, I'm terrible at rhythm to the point of like, musical disability and you can learn and defeat every boss in this game through plain old reaction and pattern recognition. Don't psych yourself out over it

 

[Paul le Fou]

Genichiro is tough but I think that fight is the end of the "tutorial" phase of the game, where all the pieces you've gradually been learning click and come together. After that you're in the shit, and the really hard bosses come afterwards.

To put it another way, Genichiro was tough but once you learn the fight/the game's systems, it becomes simple. On my four-run playthrough when the game came out, fighting Genichiro became like my happy Zen place, where I could just really zone in and engage with Sekiro at its peak. A few certain later fights, though, are never not difficult no matter how many times you do them (at least for me).

 

[air_show]

I think the thing with Genichiro is everything about his fight screams "final boss" which of course seems ridiculous as you're only a third of the way into the game. And yet there he is.

 

[estragon]

The Genichiro fight turned out to just be a lot of fun! I agree that it feels like the conclusion of the tutorial rather than a spike in difficulty. It asks you to use all the basic skills the game had taught so far, but it also definitely plays by the rules, even in the second part of the encounter when he has new abilities. (Honestly I think the second part was maybe easier, because he seems to guard way less consistently so you can nearly stunlock him in a way that often isn't allowed in this game. Butterfly would not have let me get away with that.) Part of it I'm sure is just that they were earlier and I didn't know what I was doing yet, but the lack of gimmicks made Genichiro much less tricky for me at least than a number of mini-bosses and the other two bosses so far, because it never felt like any of my key tools were being taken away.

 

[spines]

it is *possible* to get into a situation where lady butterfly is almost totally locked down, and i know this because it's what happened the time i beat her, but it was because she got stuck in a corner where she couldn't back away or get through the startup of her jumping attacks, and i doubt there's a particularly reliable way to get her right there

 

[estragon]

To be more specific, I think what I'm trying to say is when you're playing footsies and/or basically in the neutral game with Lady Butterfly or phase one Genichiro, almost every time the result of an attack that is you get blocked, then they counterattack, and if you deflect or dodge corectly you get to hit them at the end of that process. And this is the normal flow of things in the game. You attack from neutral, they counterattack, you deflect that to wear them down or dodge if you can't deflect, and hopefully you get in a hit after that. But, with phase two Genichiro, surprisingly often just doing an attack from neutral just gives you the advantage, so his health and posture wear down really quickly.

I definitely don't want to rule out all sorts of advanced strategies that shut down bosses!

 

[karzac]

Yeah that's my memory of phase 2 or f Genichiro too. I think he's also more aggressive, so there's a bit more of a chance to get locked yourself if you let him gain advantage.

 

[estragon]

A corrupted buddhist temple grounds full of monks striving to become immortal bug people is a very good environment. I imagine it's divisive but I liked the monkey catching puzzle boss, too.

I do think it's kind of funny that you get a divine message telling you that it's okay to slaughter these particular monks on sight before you see what's going on firsthand.