RPGs with good openings, part 2

[Second Duke Revier]

So, after further discussions with my friends, and some extended pondering, I believe I've identified what the problem with RPG openings is. To quote Lt. Danger, LPer of Neverwinter Nights 2 over at Something Awful:

Perhaps it's just me (and everybody else I've asked on the subject) but beginnings in RPGs always seem to be the worst part. They're slow and boring and tedious... I've never seen a Baldur's Gate thread go by without someone complaining about wanting to play through BG2 again but not being able to stomach facing the starting dungeon for the eleventh time.
In most games, they seem to fit one of two scenarios:

1) The Cloistered Village. The player is free to run around in a safe, secure and boring environment, performing banal tasks for measly rewards which are nonetheless required to ensure your character is strong enough to survive the game proper. Candlekeep in Baldur's Gate is the quintessential example.

Or:

2) Fischer-Price Dungeon. The player must run through several !exciting! and !dangerous! hostile areas, learning the mechanics of the game through trying them out on hapless minions. Of course, because it's the first dungeon, everything is padded with no sharp corners so the player doesn't kill himself.

Although the second scenario sounds a lot better, remember that some of the most hated sequences in RPG history - the Temple of Trials in Fallout 2, Torment's Mortuary, the aforementioned Irenicus sewer dungeon - fall into this category.

"Gee, that's helpful," you're thinking. Well, there are games that do it right. Icewind Dale 2's Targos is a mixture of the two - a 'safe' town under attack by a 'dangerous' goblin horde. As soon as you get tired of mindless fetch-quests, bam! you discover a band of goblins holed up in a warehouse. The gameplay avoids becoming stale while still handholding you through learning the game's mechanics.

From my experience, JRPGs try a third approach, that being making the prologue story heavy, ala the classic Final Fantasies. The problem with this is that:

a. On replays, the story ends up "dragging down the action", as the player has to sit through a bunch of dialogue and cutscenes they're already too familiar with. FF6 is a pretty classic example of this: the magitek armor trudge through the snowy canyon is impressive on the first playthrough, but quickly becomes a drag on any subsequent playthroughs.

b. This doesn't do anything to solve the actual gameplay problems outlined above, where the designers can't put anything too interesting, either because the player is learning the game, or because their characters are way too weak. And the characters can't be made strong because that kills the sense of progression.

With all of that laid out, I ask again: which RPGs have good openings? Ideally they'd try to avoid or at least mitigate the problems stated above, but failing that, an opening that you personally liked will also do. After all, there are many ways to "skin the cat", so to speak, and learning of as many of them as possible would be quite enlightening.

 

[4-So]

I like it when an RPG throws you into the gameplay quickly, so Secret of Mana comes to mind. It provides a basic backstory of the world and its history, provides an expedient situation for finding the Mana Sword, and then throws you into an (albeit easy) boss fight shortly thereafter. It's zippy and direct, doesn't wastes the player's time, and gives a basic introduction to its gameplay mechanics - all within a 10-minute window, even less if you're spry.

In terms of just openings I personally liked, FF15 is disappointing in so many ways but that opening is one of the best in the series. FF7 and FF13 are also quite good, tossing the player into the frying pan with little preamble, while providing a focal point character that is clearly strong and capable.

 

[Peklo]

I should repost what I put in the last time this topic was broached, because I'd largely end up repeating myself:

Lufia & the Fortress of Doom is a best-in-class showcase for establishing tone in a matter of minutes and seconds, in capturing a snapshot of a heroic epic and love story by way of borrowing heavily from Record of Lodoss War.

Terranigma's underground section manages to bedazzle with its dramatic presentation and by condensing and distilling the Quintet RPG ethos up to that point in the mini-arc that constitutes traversing and exploring the compact dungeons that litter the landscape.

Asellus's scenario in SaGa Frontier immediately whisks her away from any sense of normalcy she might have had in her previous life, leaving her and the player to come to grips with the labyrinthine Chateau Aiguille and its vampiric residents. You primarily do not fight during it, but spend time overcoming discombobulation impressed upon you by the location's layout and the specific oblique triggers that might progress events. Given that it's a scenario about entrapment and eventual escape, it works extraordinarily well in marrying play structure with narrative theming.

Vagrant Story's opening cinematics and seamless fusion of expertly framed cinematography, soundtrack integration and player-controlled actions are such a spectacle that I would wager that most players' affinity and appreciation for the game are primarily dedicated to these first ten minutes or so... given that the mechanically dense dungeon crawler that it actually is doesn't have the same kind of broad appeal.

It's a pretty long sequence, but Parasite Eve II's opening act in the Akropolis Tower, a Los Angeles shopping mall, is a great segue from the New York scenery of the first game to the second's small town Nevada desert outpost setting. And while I appreciate that and other aspects of the environment, truthfully it's really only about one specific thing: the completely ludicrous pre-rendered panning single shot that Aya's approach to the mall is framed through, all the while player-controlled. For all the love that I have for the pre-rendered background age of video game presentation, this is probably the most outlandish excess I've seen from the format.

I like that Final Fantasy II opens by kicking your face in, Final Fantasy III by dropping you down a hole, and Final Fantasy V by presenting a cinematic wherein the music is precisely synced up to the happenings on screen.

You can fall to your death within seconds of starting either King's Field II or King's Field IV, and that's fine by me.

Anyway, I don't particularly agree with the premise in the quoted block of the opening post. It resembles similar discussions and qualitative assumptions about "good pacing" in media, and RPGs in particular, which often operates on the implicit conclusion that desirable "pacing" is what's explosive, breakneck, propulsive. It's too narrow a lens to view an entire medium through, and from the outset limits what the narrative or mechanical underpinnings can accomplish when put to a specific task and effect; I would wager to say that RPG openings are often some of my favourite segments in them because limitations are an interesting part of video games, and you're almost always at your most limited as a player right in the beginning. The first floor of many a blobber is exhilarating because your party is so fragile and lacking in ways to prolong their ventures, so you're doing all you can to maximize your resources and expand your range of exploration, where every perilous step and meager treasure or lucky drop feels like a victory. The sleepy homesteads might not have the dangerous bite directly on their doorsteps but they are the places in which you mingle about with townsfolk and the immediate casts--whether you view this innately as "busywork" is more a statement on what you as a player prefer to do rather than the material itself being uninteresting. You can be taken out of the scene by heavy-handed mechanical tutorializing in the midst of a dynamic action setpiece opening, just the same as you can be compelled by the quietly meditative state of Alis Landale doing the rounds outside Camineet slamming bugs for meseta just so she can afford a few burgers-to-go.

 

[gogglebob]

I was replaying a classic RPG recently (surprise: it's Lufia 2, the game that seems to randomly get mentioned on this forum every other month), and the opening cave is babby's first puzzle dungeon, and most of the tips are like "did you know you can fight monsters?" But! It also noted that this is a game where you can hold R to rotate in place (like to drop an item without having to walk forward), and I completely forgot that function since my last playthrough. Given it becomes an essential "movement tech" for puzzles very quickly, I was very glad I was reminded this ability exists, else I would have likely been hung up on literally the next dungeon.

That said? If I could skip, like, the first two dungeons in Lufia 2, I would jump on the chance. Maybe everything until you get Guy in your party...

I think I just want the same function I have on a DVD player or with a book or practically any other kind of media: let me fast forward. Let me get to the good parts. "Chapter Selects" should be mandatory. Will this lead to people playing games "wrong"? Absolutely. But I am willing to risk someone not getting the proper morals out of Final Fantasy 13 if it means I can replay the game without trudging through those opening chapters again. Games like Final Fantasy 7 Remake or Nier Automata seem to be offering this with game completion, but, come on. I'm an adult. And these games are appearing on multiple systems. If I buy Nier Automata Nintendo Switch Edition, I should be able to say adios to that damned no-checkpoints opening area.

All that said, it feels like cheating to acknowledge it, but I would never skip the start of Chrono Trigger. With the New Game+ intentionality, did Square carefully create an introductory area/dungeon that is fun every time? Or was it just a sign of the craft of the game in general? The Millennial Fair can be as complicated (or skipped) as you like, and then the first real dungeon is good stuff. Good job, Chrono Trigger.

 

[Lokii]

I donno, I remain unconvinced about the core premise here. I love that magitek snow walk, a highlight each time. I enjoy FFXIII's opening chapter. The limited combat options don't bother me so much, and it's an important baseline from which the characters will ascend from once they're l'cied. Conversely, I find pretty much all of disc 1 in FFIX to be a huge slog because I've done it so many times. Etc etc. It's all personal preference.

Additionally, the issue proposed is that openings are boring on the replay. But what should a story-type game like JRPGs be designed for: the first time experience, or the revisit? Surely design considerations for the first time should be at least as equally important as considerations for the second, if not much more so.

 

[Paul le Fou]

Final Fantasies 6 and 7 both have absolute banger openings. They throw you right into the world—and also right into the action—with gripping story beats and immediately establish their excellent world designs.

 

[Bongo]

Skies of Arcadia has a cutscene that sets up an exciting scenario and its place in the world, with clear stakes and motivations in the foreground and a bit of mystery in the background, and that launches right into a dungeon that's simple enough for a tutorial but still reinforces the party's competence, and then puts you back in the safe calm village to learn about interpersonal dynamics.

In the best examples, I think, it's always going to come down to establishing character motivation. What are you/they trying to do in this scenario? Who or what stands in your way? It doesn't have to be an urgent and dramatic clash; "Go meet your friend at the fairground" is just as clear and direct a motivation as "A battle has broken out and it's kill or be killed." Balancing the introduction of the big picture and the small picture is a writing skill, but a game needs a good small picture since that's the part you're driving with your own thumbs. "Go forth and try to win because that's the only action it is currently possible to do" won't cut it for a game that's trying to convey a narrative.

I also think it's important that the game not give the player any detailed "build" choices until they've had a chance to experience the context in which those choices will be applied. The only thing the player has to go off of at that time is vibes, so the only decisions that it's appropriate to make are those that can be framed as the selection of the preferred vibe. Picking classes for your party is acceptable; choosing whether to put your limited funds towards the stronger weapon or the stronger armor is good; anything more than that, like allocating feats, is for replays, and should be handled with appropriate sensitivity to the difference between a first-time experience and a repeat experience.

 

[Kalista]

People hated the Mortuary?

I suppose I can see it, though. It was super dense with text, despite relatively little actual plot. Drab color palette, almost grayscale. And didn't really need to be three floors tall or whatever, ha. I feel like Candlekeep was much worse, but maybe it deserves to be in that company.

 

[FelixSH]

I don't agree with the basic premise, that there is something wrong with slow openings. Not everything has to be fast paced, it tires me out. I also want "filler" in tv shows, because I like downtime, it makes the action more interesting. Starting with action can be fine. I think of FF X and XIII here, which I like a lot. But I also love slow openings, where we experience the normal world of the character. Yes, I want to just be that hero who runs through a cave and kills a monster, rescuing a child, or whatever you do at the start of Lufia II. I also love the beginning of Zelda: Twilight Princess (not an rpg, but the idea is the same, most people dislike it, because it's slow).

Also, I don't even understand the idea of playing a game with a story without the story. Like the mentioned example, FF VI. I want to experience the story foremost. Honestly, the battle system isn't even close to interesting enough for me, to wanting to experience it without a story behind it. That whole concept makes no sense to me. And of course, I'm not challenged much in the beginning. I like that. I want this to go slow. But I am not here for the challenge, in most cases anyway. I feel like I'm not really addressed with this thread, I guess.

Also, also, agreed with Peklo, that fast pace is not the golden ideal for pacing that many people make it out to be. It depends on the game. Again FF X and XIII start pretty bombastic. That's fine, especially with XIII, that's inherent to the scenario. But with X, actually, ignoring the prologue, what comes next is pretty slow. Which is how it should be. It's a pilgrimage, something that will take a long, long time.

From the mentioned examples, I don't think Fallout 2 counts at all. The pacing of the starter dungeon is not the problem. It's that you can solve so much of the game without fighting, but that dungeon forces you to kill some monsters (I think, or maybe you can ignore them, and just go to the dude at the end? In either case, it doesn't fit the game it's in much).

Regarding which openings I like, I can't think of an FF where that isn't true. Generally, I can't think of a game where the beginning was a problem for me. But also none come to mind, where that beginning really gripped me. They exist, but it isn't important enough for me, that I really memorize them.

But also, I am here for the experience the creators want to show me. And I'm always ready, to meet them halfways. The urge to get to the action from the moment go simply doesn't make much sense to me. I find media generally more enjoyable, if I try to let it surprise me.

 

[Kalista]

I've been toying with randomizers recently, and those typically jump past the prologues etc to dump you on an airship with free access to the full world. It's necessary to that form of play, but I do find it quite jarring.

 

[4-So]

As others have mentioned, I'm not sure about the premise but my angle is more along the lines of "what replays?" The older I get, and the closer I get to the idea of having more days behind me than ahead of me, the more skeptical I am of replays as being some kind of necessary activity just because something was really engaging. Do I need to re-read books I've finished when there is no shortage of other books to dive into? Re-watch television shows or movies? I'm not saying I never revisit anything but I'm much more cognizant of it now than in years past and I'm more likely to opt in to a new experience. And so I find that "I have to sit through this dialogue and cutscene yet again" is a player behavior problem, not a game or design problem (insofar that it is a problem at all).

Also, I don't even understand the idea of playing a game with a story without the story. Like the mentioned example, FF VI. I want to experience the story foremost. Honestly, the battle system isn't even close to interesting enough for me, to wanting to experience it without a story behind it. That whole concept makes no sense to me. And of course, I'm not challenged much in the beginning. I like that. I want this to go slow. But I am not here for the challenge, in most cases anyway. I feel like I'm not really addressed with this thread, I guess.

I'm a "gameplay is king" person. There's entire RPGs I've played where I skipped cutscenes because the story isn't particularly compelling, or I don't like the characters, or whatever. Octopath Traveler Zero would be a good example of a game whose premise isn't particularly interesting, characters are rather dull for the most part, and the villains are so over the top it winds up being comedy. And yet I put a good 40 hours into that game because I love everything else about it - the battles, the special abilities, the visuals, the music, etc.

I think an engaging story certainly enhances a game, provides the necessary scaffolding to elevate something from good to great, but I certainly don't require one, even in RPGs.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Final Fantasies 6 and 7 both have absolute banger openings.

Speaking of, the Remake games are living up to the standard. Remake's opening is a very faithful rendition of the original bombing run and everyone knows how good that is. But Rebirth is where the games spread their wings. The entire sequence starting out with Zack, culminating with the Nibelheim flashback at Kalm is friggin' so good. When the heroic Sephiroth song kicks in, to the title drop that happens as you leave Cloud's village and enter into the open world, it's just so good.

 

[Second Duke Revier]

I think I just want the same function I have on a DVD player or with a book or practically any other kind of media: let me fast forward. Let me get to the good parts. "Chapter Selects" should be mandatory. Will this lead to people playing games "wrong"? Absolutely. But I am willing to risk someone not getting the proper morals out of Final Fantasy 13 if it means I can replay the game without trudging through those opening chapters again. Games like Final Fantasy 7 Remake or Nier Automata seem to be offering this with game completion, but, come on. I'm an adult. And these games are appearing on multiple systems. If I buy Nier Automata Nintendo Switch Edition, I should be able to say adios to that damned no-checkpoints opening area.

This is the answer I vibe with most. It's indeed strange how, after all these years, video games remain the one medium where you're forced to follow the author's progression, instead of choosing where and which part you want to engage with at any point of time. Funny, considering interactivity is supposed to be the one advantage the medium has against more traditional media...

 

[spines]

not that this is even close to the only thing i value but xenoblade 1 is like a perfect example of the Cool Intro. world backdrop, introduce some major characters, hit the action right away with a nice teaser of the combat. and then after that it brings the wow factor of the big zoom out sequence and title drop, all in like ten minutes.

another thing i like a lot is kind of unique "rituals" that start a game. stuff like the tarot quiz in ogre battle, character creation and your map and initial placements in legend of mana, buying your initial stats and items in xanadu, etc. actually even non-unique rituals can be really cool to me, and if you do them a lot it's funny and memorable in its own way. like legacy of the wizard with the living room and weird little overworld/intro area.

but on that note i've really fallen in love lately with intros that are the game. ff1 is a great example, you engage with all the basic concepts of the game to get a nice dungeon and a memorable boss fight despite its simplicity, which leads into the special title sequence. i also feel this way about saga games and pretty much every one has a starting sequence (often the first one i picked) that i find really memorable and iconic. katarina's in rs3, asellus in saga frontier, the early quests in sf2, aisha's in minstrel song, etc.

there are also a LOT of games i tried out pretty early in my own rpg journey and started (and in some cases completed) multiple times that made really deep impressions on me and i still think about them a lot. smt1 for example. that's one i really think is hardly impressive on its own merits and yet...

star ocean 3 lets you fight a tutorial battle like a training mode and there's an easy one you can likely beat the first time. then there's a harder one which would be so tedious and demanding to win that it seems basically impossible

and then there's an even harder one than that. the first couple areas of the actual game are a really fun little ritual to set up the power spike of buying an end-of-disc-1 weapon right away, i always love playing that part. and the whole game. but it's especially satisfying for me.

 

[Bongo]

This is the answer I vibe with most. It's indeed strange how, after all these years, video games remain the one medium where you're forced to follow the author's progression, instead of choosing where and which part you want to engage with at any point of time. Funny, considering interactivity is supposed to be the one advantage the medium has against more traditional media...

Software's interactivity, not only to users but also to the context of its execution, is what makes it such an extremely flexible medium. But that flexibility comes at a cost, namely that everything that can be done with software must be designed uniquely and programmed explicitly.

Even programs whose behavior can be remixed and modified do not attain those qualities "for free" as a natural consequence of their medium, the way that a book or filmstrip does, but because they were built with sophisticated techniques intended to make such remixing possible. Software is still very primitive in that regard; compared to the centuries of development of the rich and convenient features of a book and of the reconfigurable and reliable machines that print them, it's like programs are still carved into clay tablets.

 

[Purple]

Wild ARMs' whole deal with each of the protagonists having their own little mini-adventure before they meet up is pretty great.

Phantasy Star 4 has a ton of early momentum, propelling you around with a slightly broken character and some nerd you extort money from constantly.

Planescape Torment drops you into just a real cool little scenario right at the start.

Dragon Quest 4 is... Dragon Quest 4.

And honestly the start of basically every Pokemon game is this cool period of wide-eyed wonder as you're out filling all these empty party slots with bugs and rodents and a bird and the evolutions roll in real quick.

Oh and I've only played 45 minutes or so of Jack Move but wow did that one put a good foot forward.

 

[Nodal]

Wait, torments mortuary is hated? It's like 5 minutes long and mostly flavor text!