That looks hugely ambitious, I wonder how well it works? Maybe I’ll see if anyone on Twitch is running a multi world right now.
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Rando in my mentions: Talking about Randomizers
- Thread starter SpoonyBard
- Start date
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- Tags
- rando randomizer
IIRC Archipelago is based off a generalized model of the old Z3 multiworld randomizer. On a technical level, it's a fairly mature project, with the requirements for integrating new randomizers into it being fairly well-understood.
If you're asking for "how it works" on a game design level, well, that depends on the slate of games you and your friends pick. *ominous chuckle*
If you're asking for "how it works" on a game design level, well, that depends on the slate of games you and your friends pick. *ominous chuckle*
I've seen shovda and Shoujo (and a couple other people) playing an SMW multiworld with Archipelago a while back, it seemed pretty neat!
New SOTN rando setting just dropped.
The Holy Glasses is replaced with a 'magic mirror' item which lets you directly warp between the two castles down to your position in each room. Some rooms disallow warping, such as boss rooms and the big central room under the clock so you can't just warp straight to the final boss. Also some of the room geometry has been altered adding walls in a few spots so you need to have the mirror to bypass them.
The Holy Glasses is replaced with a 'magic mirror' item which lets you directly warp between the two castles down to your position in each room. Some rooms disallow warping, such as boss rooms and the big central room under the clock so you can't just warp straight to the final boss. Also some of the room geometry has been altered adding walls in a few spots so you need to have the mirror to bypass them.
I spent some time poking at Archipelago and I was able to put together a Hollow Knight/Subnautica randomizer in about 30 minutes. Spent a few hours playing it and guess what? These are both really huge games! I had never tried randomizing either before and the learning curve has been somewhat steep. HK is extremely limiting at first, since you need mobility options to make any real headway - the game is softlock city without the Mantis Claw, though thankfully you can choose to warp back to your most recent bench at will. Stag stations are mixed in with the random item pool, so I was able to get to the Resting Grounds and King's Station, but you can't do a whole lot in either of those areas without the double jump, air dash or wall climb. Combat hasn't been too big of a challenge so far, at least. I was able to clear out the three bosses in the Forgotten Crossroads, but I didn't get anything of note for my troubles, aside from the King's Brand (which won't be of use for a while yet).
That means that everything I need must be in Subnautica, right? The Subnautica rando seems to work by shuffling all the unlockable blueprints between the various PDAs and databoxes in the world (and also Hallownest, in my case). You don't find items lying the around in the world to scan like in the vanilla game, which cuts down on a lot of the searching you would normally do. You can choose to put blueprints behind creature scans, if you want to mix things up some more. And yes, that can include the leviathans if you really want to make your life difficult! I didn't choose that option, so progression mostly comes down to visiting story-relevant locations, grabbing the databoxes/PDAs and any rare resources, then moving on. It hasn't been too difficult so far, since there are a lot of places to check from the jump, but it's pretty slow going without the seaglide (one blueprint part was for sale at Sly's store in Dirtmouth, but the other still eludes me). The game also just straight up tells you where the nearest check is in the top left corner of the screen. I don't know if there's any way to turn this off, as it really breaks immersion, but it's probably a necessary evil if you don't want your run to last for 30 hours. It doesn't discriminate between checks you can actually get or not, so I found myself being pointed to some wrecks that I couldn't get into for lack of a laser cutter. The Aurora is radioactive from the get-go, so you can't immediately strip it for parts either.
I don't know if I'm going to keep going with this/these runs or not, since it really is a whole lot of game to work through by yourself. Hopefully I'll have a chance to try a proper multiworld with other people at some point, which will at least make the time pass more quickly when I'm slowly checking locations. I might also be better served by sticking to shorter games, because checking every location in Hollow Knight takes me about 10 hours on a good day and Subnautica is probably twice as long. Still, Archipelago is an extremely cool system and I'm excited to see more games added to it. Ever since I played SMZ3, I've wanted a version where you can mix and match other games - ActRaiser and MegaMan X always seemed like they'd be good candidates. In the meantime, I guess I can always fire up [checks list] Hylics 2 and A Short Hike?
That means that everything I need must be in Subnautica, right? The Subnautica rando seems to work by shuffling all the unlockable blueprints between the various PDAs and databoxes in the world (and also Hallownest, in my case). You don't find items lying the around in the world to scan like in the vanilla game, which cuts down on a lot of the searching you would normally do. You can choose to put blueprints behind creature scans, if you want to mix things up some more. And yes, that can include the leviathans if you really want to make your life difficult! I didn't choose that option, so progression mostly comes down to visiting story-relevant locations, grabbing the databoxes/PDAs and any rare resources, then moving on. It hasn't been too difficult so far, since there are a lot of places to check from the jump, but it's pretty slow going without the seaglide (one blueprint part was for sale at Sly's store in Dirtmouth, but the other still eludes me). The game also just straight up tells you where the nearest check is in the top left corner of the screen. I don't know if there's any way to turn this off, as it really breaks immersion, but it's probably a necessary evil if you don't want your run to last for 30 hours. It doesn't discriminate between checks you can actually get or not, so I found myself being pointed to some wrecks that I couldn't get into for lack of a laser cutter. The Aurora is radioactive from the get-go, so you can't immediately strip it for parts either.
I don't know if I'm going to keep going with this/these runs or not, since it really is a whole lot of game to work through by yourself. Hopefully I'll have a chance to try a proper multiworld with other people at some point, which will at least make the time pass more quickly when I'm slowly checking locations. I might also be better served by sticking to shorter games, because checking every location in Hollow Knight takes me about 10 hours on a good day and Subnautica is probably twice as long. Still, Archipelago is an extremely cool system and I'm excited to see more games added to it. Ever since I played SMZ3, I've wanted a version where you can mix and match other games - ActRaiser and MegaMan X always seemed like they'd be good candidates. In the meantime, I guess I can always fire up [checks list] Hylics 2 and A Short Hike?
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Purple
(She/Her)
Not sure how the randomizer logic works, but it seems to me like you're asking for trouble with that sort of combo, because part of what I love about Subnautica is that while it gently guides you through a pretty linear path, that sucker is actually WIDE OPEN. I think you need Something to get to the most remote parts of the world, but by something I mean basically anything. It really just comes down to oxygen, so...
And most points of interest don't even require even that much, really.
you got pipes? Just drag a pipe down from the surface to the end of the game! Don't have pipes? Well, can you build a hab section and door or moon pool and get power to it for long enough to get in the door? You're good! Still no? OK, you have any vehicles? Still no? Well, if you have some spare O2 tanks and a really good route memorized there's a series of waterless rooms you can gun it to, probably.
Subnautica’s rando logic actually keeps track of how deep you “should” be able to go when placing items. It looks at the best available vehicle you have access to and then assumes you’ll dive a bit deeper than it can go. Just how far you have to free dive is user-selectable, but on the tougher settings you’ll need to resort to multi-tank shenanigans, building bases or making one-way trips.
Archipelago is a Big Deal in rando communities, so I was kind of surprised people here had never heard of it before. It was also a Big Deal when FF4 Free Enterprise went open source some months ago, because that meant people could start adding Archipelago support for it.
I feel like the most common use case for Archipelago is a bunch of friends picking the least compatible set of games out of a lack of foresight, and then spending the next several hours regretting their life choices (there are certainly worse ways to spend hours on voice chat).
What I'm saying is that even if you luck into a Terrible Experience, you'll still probably have a good time with friends.
What I'm saying is that even if you luck into a Terrible Experience, you'll still probably have a good time with friends.
Surprisingly, it wasn't that hard! Simply put:
1. Install Archipelago
2. Find your game(s) on the game list and learn how to mod them (probably the most difficult part)
3. Configure the settings you want for each game using its Options page on the Archipelago game list
4. Export those options to yaml files (one per game)
5. Zip the yaml files together and upload them to the Generate Game page
6. Make a room for your game and click the link to connect Archipelago on your PC to the server
7. Launch your game and connect to the same game room
It's a little obtuse, but aside from modding the individual games to support Archipelago, none of the individual steps is very complicated.
This is exactly what I'm hoping for!
I did play a little more Subnautica last night, but I decided to look up in the spoiler guide where to find the other half of my Seaglide. I definitely wouldn't blame someone for using spoilers or the on-screen indicator to find checks for their first couple of randomizers, it's a really big ocean out there.
I went a little further down the Archipelago rabbit hole in the last couple days and I've been having myself a pretty good time. I decided that I needed some shorter games to randomize, so I went on the Archipelago Discord server and had a look at the list of upcoming games people are developing. It turns out that there are a number of games on that list that are already functional, even if they aren't officially supported yet. If you're willing to jump through a few hoops, you can get them going and freely mix them in with the "official" Archipelago games.
Two from that group that caught my eye were Mega Man 2 & 3, although the latter is still early in development. I'm pretty good at Mega Man, so these games work really well as randos for me. By default, only one robot master stage is open at the start of each game and rest are found in the item pool. You unlock two checks every time you clear a stage, or three if there's a movement item or Rush upgrade associated with the boss. By default, the 1-ups and E-tanks placed in stages are also checks, so you have a good reason to return to a stage if you weren't able to clear it out on your first pass. You can freely exit stages at any time, and you can replay them as many times as you want. You can also access the Dr Wily stages early - in MM2, they unlock as soon as you have items 1 and 3 (which you need to make it to the end of the first stage). There are unlocks hidden behind the Wily stage bosses too, so you might have to go in and out a few times before the game is done. Thankfully, the game keeps track of which stages you've finished, so you don't have to start over at the beginning every time.
I don't quite know what the requirements are to access MM3's Wily stages, but the Doc Robot stages are randomly distributed and can pop up at any time. You can toggle between regular and Doc stages by pressing select on the stage select, although as you can imagine, the Doc Robot stages are pretty tough to complete if you don't have any of the boss weapons. That and Doc Needle Man is straight up impossible without the Rush Jet. Overall, I find MM3 a lot harder to play when I'm not able to follow my typical route through the game. That said, necessity is the mother of gettin' good, and last night I had my first-ever buster-only/no E-tank victories against Needle Man and Shadow Man! Still, it's a much stiffer challenge than MM2 in my opinion, as well as being a longer game.
Overall, these seem like great additions to Archipelago. I'm going to try out some roguelikes in the near future (Slay the Spire and Risk of Rain 2 are both supported), so it might be possible to put together a mix of 3-4 games and still finish in under 5 hours. Now I just need Mega Man X and ActRaiser and all my wishes will be granted!
Two from that group that caught my eye were Mega Man 2 & 3, although the latter is still early in development. I'm pretty good at Mega Man, so these games work really well as randos for me. By default, only one robot master stage is open at the start of each game and rest are found in the item pool. You unlock two checks every time you clear a stage, or three if there's a movement item or Rush upgrade associated with the boss. By default, the 1-ups and E-tanks placed in stages are also checks, so you have a good reason to return to a stage if you weren't able to clear it out on your first pass. You can freely exit stages at any time, and you can replay them as many times as you want. You can also access the Dr Wily stages early - in MM2, they unlock as soon as you have items 1 and 3 (which you need to make it to the end of the first stage). There are unlocks hidden behind the Wily stage bosses too, so you might have to go in and out a few times before the game is done. Thankfully, the game keeps track of which stages you've finished, so you don't have to start over at the beginning every time.
I don't quite know what the requirements are to access MM3's Wily stages, but the Doc Robot stages are randomly distributed and can pop up at any time. You can toggle between regular and Doc stages by pressing select on the stage select, although as you can imagine, the Doc Robot stages are pretty tough to complete if you don't have any of the boss weapons. That and Doc Needle Man is straight up impossible without the Rush Jet. Overall, I find MM3 a lot harder to play when I'm not able to follow my typical route through the game. That said, necessity is the mother of gettin' good, and last night I had my first-ever buster-only/no E-tank victories against Needle Man and Shadow Man! Still, it's a much stiffer challenge than MM2 in my opinion, as well as being a longer game.
Overall, these seem like great additions to Archipelago. I'm going to try out some roguelikes in the near future (Slay the Spire and Risk of Rain 2 are both supported), so it might be possible to put together a mix of 3-4 games and still finish in under 5 hours. Now I just need Mega Man X and ActRaiser and all my wishes will be granted!
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Mike and I have been messing with this, and I'm digging it a lot! I wanted to try it with Balatro tonight, but it wasn't cooperating, so I played MM2, Mike played MMX, then we had two DOOM games and a VVVVVV. This is ridiculous and fun. I can't wait until Resident Evil 2K19 is fully working.
It was! At this point, I've become a True Believer, having gone through the hoops to get a bunch of in-development games working for NES, SNES and PC. I think I enjoy getting things working as much as I enjoy actually playing them, if only for the sheer weirdness of getting Dome Keeper to talk to Mega Man 2. Here's a quick rundown of some of the games I've tried so far:
DOOM: Super easy to get working, super fun to play. Pick a single episode and it will take about 1-2 hours if you're at least somewhat familiar with the levels. You'll need to know where the secrets are, but there's an option to start with the full stage maps unlocked that is very helpful for that.
Tyrian: My favorite PC shareware shooter from the 90s is back, in freeware randomizer form! Developement is still in progress, so only the first two episodes out of 4/5 (depending on how you count) are functional. I really enjoy this one, but some of the secrets in Episode 2 have been eluding me and I don't know if it's because of a bug or because they're just hard to find. Worth it for the soundtrack, anyway.
Mega Man X: This makes for an excellent randomized game, because it's less difficult than your memories would have you believe. I made it all the way to Sigma without ever getting my dash, which is something I'd never done before! SNES games are annoying to get working, but well worth the effort.
Super Metroid: I've been too scared to try an actual run of this game because I'm so rusty, but I think it will happen soon. This uses the VARIA randomizer set of options, which is honestly a little overwhelming. I think you can do map rando if you want? Further investigation is needed.
Dome Keeper: Fun little indy mining/tower-defense game that seems to work pretty well on Archipelago. You find upgrades by digging or by spending resources, and if your dome gets destroyed you can start over while keeping all your unlocks. Seems to be balanced around using the largest map size available, since the number of items to find doesn't change with the map size and they start to become comically dense on the smaller settings.
Mega Man 3: Turns out this release is still pretty early and it has bugged on me twice, killing my run both times. I expect that will get fixed, eventually. I don't like this one quite as much as Mega Man 2 - it's actually a good deal more difficult IMO, plus it's just a longer game. I'll probably put it into the mix occasionally to change things up, at least once the development is a bit further along.
Anyway, it's been very fun to try out all these weird combos, solo or with other people. I'm gradually working up the courage to take on some longer games, but for now I'm happy to have a lot of 1-2 hour experiences available.
DOOM: Super easy to get working, super fun to play. Pick a single episode and it will take about 1-2 hours if you're at least somewhat familiar with the levels. You'll need to know where the secrets are, but there's an option to start with the full stage maps unlocked that is very helpful for that.
Tyrian: My favorite PC shareware shooter from the 90s is back, in freeware randomizer form! Developement is still in progress, so only the first two episodes out of 4/5 (depending on how you count) are functional. I really enjoy this one, but some of the secrets in Episode 2 have been eluding me and I don't know if it's because of a bug or because they're just hard to find. Worth it for the soundtrack, anyway.
Mega Man X: This makes for an excellent randomized game, because it's less difficult than your memories would have you believe. I made it all the way to Sigma without ever getting my dash, which is something I'd never done before! SNES games are annoying to get working, but well worth the effort.
Super Metroid: I've been too scared to try an actual run of this game because I'm so rusty, but I think it will happen soon. This uses the VARIA randomizer set of options, which is honestly a little overwhelming. I think you can do map rando if you want? Further investigation is needed.
Dome Keeper: Fun little indy mining/tower-defense game that seems to work pretty well on Archipelago. You find upgrades by digging or by spending resources, and if your dome gets destroyed you can start over while keeping all your unlocks. Seems to be balanced around using the largest map size available, since the number of items to find doesn't change with the map size and they start to become comically dense on the smaller settings.
Mega Man 3: Turns out this release is still pretty early and it has bugged on me twice, killing my run both times. I expect that will get fixed, eventually. I don't like this one quite as much as Mega Man 2 - it's actually a good deal more difficult IMO, plus it's just a longer game. I'll probably put it into the mix occasionally to change things up, at least once the development is a bit further along.
Anyway, it's been very fun to try out all these weird combos, solo or with other people. I'm gradually working up the courage to take on some longer games, but for now I'm happy to have a lot of 1-2 hour experiences available.
So... it seems like the mod for Balatro includes a file that Windows Defender clocks as malware so I'm temporarily giving up on that, but I did see that @MCBanjoMike seems to have SotN working...
Would it be that difficult? A lot of the heavy lifting is done by the emulators using various connection protocols, if they can get that stuff working on console I'm sure Mac is possible...
[searches for instructions] "Setting up a virtual environment"
Ok, so maybe not as turnkey as on PC!
[searches for instructions] "Setting up a virtual environment"
Ok, so maybe not as turnkey as on PC!
@MCBanjoMike and I did a Resident Evil 2K19/SotN/Tyrian run together! It was fun! I still remember where most of the stuff in RE2make are, so it worked out pretty well. This thing is pretty rad.
Which randomizer did you play for it? Was it this?
These randomizers have all been specifically developed for Archipelago, so they aren’t always as fully featured as some of the other randos out there. For example, I’m not sure that map randomizer has been integrated into the AP version of Super Metroid yet. The Mega Man X AP rando is in active development by someone who goes by lx5, I got it off their github page. There’s a lot of visiting repos and digging through Discord messages when you want to get an unsupported game working in Archipelago, but it’s worth it for those sweet cross-game multi-worlds.
If you’re curious what this all looks like, we’ve streamed our last couple of multiworlds. Here’s the one with MMX:
If you’re curious what this all looks like, we’ve streamed our last couple of multiworlds. Here’s the one with MMX:
So you're 100% on the honor system, but there are a fair few games supported in the Manual Archipelago client, which I sought out primarily for Marvel Snap, but someone also made a thing for Vampire Survivors. Basically, it tells you "this is what you can start with" then you manually tick off checks so items get sent to other players, and when they tick off checks, you get a note that says "ok, you can use this thing now."
Tomm Guycot
(he/him)
Just designed a new Randomizer nbd.
See you in three years!
See you in three years!
I haven't tried this myself, nor do I think I will until it's out of Early Access, but I have received a recommendation for Splintered. This is an original RPG with design inspired by randomizers, including most especially the Dragon Quest 1 randomizer.
store.steampowered.com
Splintered on Steam
A unique RPG where the villain randomizes the world with each defeat. Start with a classic RPG experience, then delve into shifting worlds where the overworld, items, and enemies shuffle, creating new challenges. Conquer these worlds to unravel the story and make your way to the final showdown!
I've been playing Archipelago again lately, and whenever that happens I tend to spend time on the AP Discord server looking at new games to try. One game that is currently in beta is FFIV Free Enterprise, which I know has a long history as a standalone randomizer. I added it to a group of games that we were randomizing, but I'm starting to think the default settings maybe aren't the best ones to use? It's currently set up so that all chests and stores are randomized, plus boss and quest rewards. In practice, this means that I have 475 locations to check in the game and something like 400 of them are chests and pots. I'm spending 80% of my time running around dungeons and towns looting chests, 10% fighting bosses (or trapped chest encounters) and the rest managing my inventory. This doesn't really seem like the most fun way to play? Anyone have some Free Enterprise experience who could maybe give me some pointers on how to set things up for my next run?
I've played a lot of Free Enterprise, but not ever as an archipelago, so I'm not sure how the flag settings in FE interact with archipelago.
But, typically the flags in FE are all designed around which group of "targets" are shuffled into the key item pool. "Key items" are what I imagine you want to be "plugging into" the archipelago to serve as your contribution to the group. They are basically FF4FE's categorization of a Morph Ball-type upgrade that affects your seed progression.
There are about 17 of these items in total, which doesn't seem like a lot for an archipelago game, so I really can't guess how the archipelago authors managed all the flags.
But, typically the flags in FE are all designed around which group of "targets" are shuffled into the key item pool. "Key items" are what I imagine you want to be "plugging into" the archipelago to serve as your contribution to the group. They are basically FF4FE's categorization of a Morph Ball-type upgrade that affects your seed progression.
There are about 17 of these items in total, which doesn't seem like a lot for an archipelago game, so I really can't guess how the archipelago authors managed all the flags.
I have played FF4FE a little and watched it a lot, so I'm no expert but here are my thoughts:
I think you could try using the Tsparse (fewer items, empty chests show as already opened) and/or the TMoney (all non-key items are replaced with their monetary value) options to see if they can help with that issue.
treasure_randomization [Free Enterprise Wiki]
wiki.ff4fe.com
If you use TMoney then shops will be your only source of items and equipment so you'll also want to be careful about what shop options you use. Swild (items of any quality level can appear in shops) might be your best choice to not only makes things possible in general but also easier if you use TMoney.
shop_randomization [Free Enterprise Wiki]
wiki.ff4fe.com
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