Violentvixen
(She/Her)
Niccolo is really just a sleazy used car/timeshare salesman.
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Legend of Mana: Remember me! Need me! I am love.
- Thread starter spines
- Start date
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- Tags
- action rpg mana square square enix
Pajaro Pete
(He/Himbo)
Legend of Mana anime confirmed to be in the works, for some reason.
Violentvixen
(She/Her)
If they really do match the art style as shown in that screen I'm very much into it.
I thought it was fairly unexpected that the remaster's new animated opening 1) exists 2) is very much the focus of the brief art gallery included, with relevant character design sheets from it to peruse. Now it appears clear they're attempting to build that fabled synergy or test the waters in acclimatizing people to those adaptations of the source material. I think of the glimpses seen the designs transfer reasonably well, but Shinichi Kameoka's designwork for this game is so intricate in nature, and textured atypically and strikingly to the point of almost seeming woodcut, that the streamlining required to animate the work isn't the ideal portrayal in all cases. Particularly the added fidelity hurts in some instances, like the female protagonist's leotard that in stylized 2D sprites and frames does not read particularly exploitatively now has these lingering pans and zooms devoted to her legs and butt, in the game's very own opening.
I'm something like a third into this now, judging from how the cactus diaries track the completed events, though with how freeform and eminently missable it all feels I'm sure that tally won't reach completion in unguided play. I'm finding it increasingly the case that I cannot disassociate this game from my knowledge and love of SaGa at large--it just oozes similarities to that specific design ethos and tonality that I've grown so enamored with, reflecting in the high opinion I have of Legend as it goes on. The perception of the game as SaGa-adjacent of course is embodied in Akitoshi Kawazu's development role on it as producer, and it can seem a reductive assessment too reliant on auteur theory rhetoric because no one has lukewarm opinions about Kawazu's work; they are invariably very certain and strongly expressed one way or another and so tend to consume the reputations of any game he's involved with no matter his role. I'm not compelled to argue, at least anymore after personal experience with the game, that he had no creative influence on Legend, because clearly that spirit is present, but more tenable to that end is to acknowledge just how many SaGa alumni participated in the creation of the game and how all of their contributions and prior experience shaped it into an amalgam of its own nominal series and the one where much of the new pedigree was sourced from. It's an incredibly naturalistic fusion of the two as it's not mandated by any corporate degree of there having to be an explicit Mana x SaGa crossover--just the result of people with distinct creative preferences collaborating, finding that simpatico wavelength and bringing about something neither could have individually.
Key aspects that spring to mind in that commonality: like SaGa, Legend is very preoccupied with the experience of RPG combat and how it's expressed, and especially the percentually high amounts of it by location. You will fight a lot and like SaGa, despite the volume it hardly ever becomes rote because the sense of dynamism and unpredictability maintains engagement. Glimmering arts isn't quite literally in the game, but the conceit is almost directly reproduced in how one comes to glean new insights in the form of fanciful special techniques according to indirect but omnipresent systems governing their learning. The core combat arts that facilitate that process are themselves a wild modifier to throw into a beat 'em up engine, allowing for tremendous personalization of playstyle in addition to the highly malleable fluctuations of whatever weapon type is being utilized--maybe you enjoy moonsaulting just as much with a greastsword as with daggers in hand, and all of that creativity is allowed for within the systems. A smaller but no less crucial element carried over from SaGa is the importance of spectacle in presenting fights on a purely visual level; the series is or should be famous for how long it has toiled in the craft of sprite and polygonal model deformation, manipulation and general boisterous manhandling for dramatic effect. Legend maintains this aspect through not only through giving varied ways in affecting positioning of the player character, but those of the enemies, in very physical and pro wrestling grappling-derived ways that SaGa so keenly has an eye for. Everything just feels very tactile in how it's reacted to, and even the "is this working correctly...?" impression that might colour the particularities of Secret of Mana's programming routines in hit detection (and which nevertheless are very stable and consistent) feels preserved in how Legend comes to its own expression of when a beat 'em up and an RPG meet--friction will occur, but mostly to characterize and contrast the unique aspects of both extremes.
Other things of note are just the general narrative structure and storytelling mode that's present. Something like Dragon Quest is famous for its vignettes, but it comes to a point that the verisimilitude of its writing voice and its capability for drawing from multitudes of the emotional spectrum is fairly one-note in structural terms: the town or location-segregated arcs are usually always devoted to bittersweet and sentimental tragedies, with the incidental writing in the margins and contextualizing chatter having to fill in the humour that's equally as characteristic of the series. You always know what to roughly expect if not in details but in the expectant tone. In Legend--and yes, SaGa--I don't know what is coming next; such rigid formalism doesn't exist in their priorities. It could be something heartrending. It could be lighthearted and comedic. It could be serious in its processes toward worldbuilding across an ongoing narrative, or it could be an isolated aside, an episodic tangent toward ephemeral philosophical subtext. This is the strength of a design mentality that is so freeform in its approach to mechanics that it cannot help but apply the same to the written content as well, both in how you encounter it through sussing out oblique occurrences in the corners of the world and what comes of it textually--what the takeaway of the interaction you just had is even supposed to be. Some end on practical punchlines to the service of a gag, while others develop from strange premises into straightforward drama; you may explore a dungeon while you fulfill the arc's needs or you may simply talk to people to resolve whatever situation is occurring. SaGa Frontier is likely the premier anthology RPG, but Legend adopts that freewheeling spirit for its own ends that are no less eclectic as an expression of how to design and tell a story within an RPG.
Maybe lastly it would be relevant to highlight, and potentially assuage other newcomers or lapsed players, that as much as the freedom of making one's bed exists in the game, lying down in it need not be an unpleasant experience according to the consequences of the choices made. Like SaGa, there is just an untold amount of complex causal relationships between mathematical formulas and interacting systems going on under the game's hood, and just like there, the lack of exact transparency for said material isn't the sign of the game "hating" its audience or whatever simplistic bad-faith judgment is made about design choices of this nature, because the practical record of playing the game as is provides enough empirical evidence that total mastery of the game's underlying logic is neither realistic, required or expected. They are games stuffed full of ideas, where some extremely elaborate fringe systems exist on the periphery ready to be explored at the player's behest, but also only being allowed to do so because they are enjoyable in their obscure complications and not mandated cramming material. Nothing needs to be stressed over because the game is accommodating in providing more than enough just as a result of baseline play, which solidifies it as the best kind of exploratory ethos: that discoveries are fun to make just for their own sake, branching out of one's own comfort zone.
I have not felt the pull of reaching for a walkthrough so far in Legend of Mana, and that's not entirely because of easy observation of its processes and rhythms; I have done my share of wandering around unsure of what to do next when the immediate leads have dwindled. Even in those moments, the tenor has not been one of frustration, because wayward wanderings are about the best encapsulation as I have landed on in identifying what drives the game at its core. It really does feel like so much the progeny of various, diversely influenced parents in how much it incorporates into something totally unique as a result.
I'm something like a third into this now, judging from how the cactus diaries track the completed events, though with how freeform and eminently missable it all feels I'm sure that tally won't reach completion in unguided play. I'm finding it increasingly the case that I cannot disassociate this game from my knowledge and love of SaGa at large--it just oozes similarities to that specific design ethos and tonality that I've grown so enamored with, reflecting in the high opinion I have of Legend as it goes on. The perception of the game as SaGa-adjacent of course is embodied in Akitoshi Kawazu's development role on it as producer, and it can seem a reductive assessment too reliant on auteur theory rhetoric because no one has lukewarm opinions about Kawazu's work; they are invariably very certain and strongly expressed one way or another and so tend to consume the reputations of any game he's involved with no matter his role. I'm not compelled to argue, at least anymore after personal experience with the game, that he had no creative influence on Legend, because clearly that spirit is present, but more tenable to that end is to acknowledge just how many SaGa alumni participated in the creation of the game and how all of their contributions and prior experience shaped it into an amalgam of its own nominal series and the one where much of the new pedigree was sourced from. It's an incredibly naturalistic fusion of the two as it's not mandated by any corporate degree of there having to be an explicit Mana x SaGa crossover--just the result of people with distinct creative preferences collaborating, finding that simpatico wavelength and bringing about something neither could have individually.
Key aspects that spring to mind in that commonality: like SaGa, Legend is very preoccupied with the experience of RPG combat and how it's expressed, and especially the percentually high amounts of it by location. You will fight a lot and like SaGa, despite the volume it hardly ever becomes rote because the sense of dynamism and unpredictability maintains engagement. Glimmering arts isn't quite literally in the game, but the conceit is almost directly reproduced in how one comes to glean new insights in the form of fanciful special techniques according to indirect but omnipresent systems governing their learning. The core combat arts that facilitate that process are themselves a wild modifier to throw into a beat 'em up engine, allowing for tremendous personalization of playstyle in addition to the highly malleable fluctuations of whatever weapon type is being utilized--maybe you enjoy moonsaulting just as much with a greastsword as with daggers in hand, and all of that creativity is allowed for within the systems. A smaller but no less crucial element carried over from SaGa is the importance of spectacle in presenting fights on a purely visual level; the series is or should be famous for how long it has toiled in the craft of sprite and polygonal model deformation, manipulation and general boisterous manhandling for dramatic effect. Legend maintains this aspect through not only through giving varied ways in affecting positioning of the player character, but those of the enemies, in very physical and pro wrestling grappling-derived ways that SaGa so keenly has an eye for. Everything just feels very tactile in how it's reacted to, and even the "is this working correctly...?" impression that might colour the particularities of Secret of Mana's programming routines in hit detection (and which nevertheless are very stable and consistent) feels preserved in how Legend comes to its own expression of when a beat 'em up and an RPG meet--friction will occur, but mostly to characterize and contrast the unique aspects of both extremes.
Other things of note are just the general narrative structure and storytelling mode that's present. Something like Dragon Quest is famous for its vignettes, but it comes to a point that the verisimilitude of its writing voice and its capability for drawing from multitudes of the emotional spectrum is fairly one-note in structural terms: the town or location-segregated arcs are usually always devoted to bittersweet and sentimental tragedies, with the incidental writing in the margins and contextualizing chatter having to fill in the humour that's equally as characteristic of the series. You always know what to roughly expect if not in details but in the expectant tone. In Legend--and yes, SaGa--I don't know what is coming next; such rigid formalism doesn't exist in their priorities. It could be something heartrending. It could be lighthearted and comedic. It could be serious in its processes toward worldbuilding across an ongoing narrative, or it could be an isolated aside, an episodic tangent toward ephemeral philosophical subtext. This is the strength of a design mentality that is so freeform in its approach to mechanics that it cannot help but apply the same to the written content as well, both in how you encounter it through sussing out oblique occurrences in the corners of the world and what comes of it textually--what the takeaway of the interaction you just had is even supposed to be. Some end on practical punchlines to the service of a gag, while others develop from strange premises into straightforward drama; you may explore a dungeon while you fulfill the arc's needs or you may simply talk to people to resolve whatever situation is occurring. SaGa Frontier is likely the premier anthology RPG, but Legend adopts that freewheeling spirit for its own ends that are no less eclectic as an expression of how to design and tell a story within an RPG.
Maybe lastly it would be relevant to highlight, and potentially assuage other newcomers or lapsed players, that as much as the freedom of making one's bed exists in the game, lying down in it need not be an unpleasant experience according to the consequences of the choices made. Like SaGa, there is just an untold amount of complex causal relationships between mathematical formulas and interacting systems going on under the game's hood, and just like there, the lack of exact transparency for said material isn't the sign of the game "hating" its audience or whatever simplistic bad-faith judgment is made about design choices of this nature, because the practical record of playing the game as is provides enough empirical evidence that total mastery of the game's underlying logic is neither realistic, required or expected. They are games stuffed full of ideas, where some extremely elaborate fringe systems exist on the periphery ready to be explored at the player's behest, but also only being allowed to do so because they are enjoyable in their obscure complications and not mandated cramming material. Nothing needs to be stressed over because the game is accommodating in providing more than enough just as a result of baseline play, which solidifies it as the best kind of exploratory ethos: that discoveries are fun to make just for their own sake, branching out of one's own comfort zone.
I have not felt the pull of reaching for a walkthrough so far in Legend of Mana, and that's not entirely because of easy observation of its processes and rhythms; I have done my share of wandering around unsure of what to do next when the immediate leads have dwindled. Even in those moments, the tenor has not been one of frustration, because wayward wanderings are about the best encapsulation as I have landed on in identifying what drives the game at its core. It really does feel like so much the progeny of various, diversely influenced parents in how much it incorporates into something totally unique as a result.
Oh man I really need to grab this ASAP! UGH why do games keep coming out when I haven't played all of the other games that exist yet
Finished this earlier, at something like 15 hours and 37-ish events logged into the diaries out of 67. It's so good to have an RPG that is so bursting with things to do and wrap your mind around and which still has the self-confidence to allow you to ignore great swathes of it. It's not diminished by the act at all, and actively relishes in the opportunity to call you back should you want to. I don't know if I will, at least right now, but peeking into the new loop I can already see that one of my more active concerns in the game's general low combat difficulty (which is a boon from other perspectives) can now be addressed via the forbidden tome's customizations, so in addition to the inherently mutable play scenario that awaits I would probably be happy to do it with alterations like this in play, like enabling the original music this time which I've listened to so much out of context prior. Just feels like a game that keeps generously giving beyond its nominal borders, and isn't that thematically apt.
I never really shook off the SaGa allusions as I played. One important aspect is Yoko Shimomura's soundtrack, which is personally notable to me because historically I have not been too enamored with her work, and Legend is one of the exceptions. The expectation that when stepping in to contribute to a very solidly defined series that Mana was at this point is that the new material would contour around the definitions of the most definitive creative voice in its musical past, which was unquestionably Hiroki Kikuta, but that's not the impression I get. The battle tracks especially feel like they're calling to a particular composer's stylistic mode, and they're from a little deeper into the series's history, in Kenji Ito who started this whole thing off with scoring Seiken Densetsu--but even then, it's not specifically that work that feels relevant but his later iconic work in SaGa, as in the best battle themes in the genre. That's how the mood of pieces like "Pain the Universe" comes off to me and ties into the larger impression of everything here rippling strongly off the waves created by that series. I don't want to undermine Shimomura's personalizations either as the score is vast and heartfelt in tone throughout, and it still overcomes me that Swedish vocals were given such a marquee role in shaping the identity.
The approach to writing in this is so interesting to me. It's not really plot or objective-driven and concerned. The longform stories exist (I followed the faerie story to its conclusion) but it also doesn't seem too relevant what actually happens in them, as they're vehicles to set up the characters to debate their ways and views on life and personal realities with one another rather than resolving whatever material concern is at hand. A late-game conversation between Nunuzac and Pokiehl--two figures that are practically walking and talking symbols to begin with--took on the shape of a theological debate, practically. Even in the lighter fare like Gilbert's misadventures (of which I saw the Monique chapter) there's an air of colliding philosophical tenets rather than the direct drama of romantic conflict in what's actually being said, and the resolution isn't one painted as a joke or something inevitably sordid; just two people finding their personal values incompatible and drifting apart. It's impossible to overlook how much the game talks about and is invested in the concept of love, and how much what begins as lip service can then tie in to the thematic underpinnings of imagination, creation and investing of yourself into the game that you're being given an active role in forming along the way in more intimate ways than the medium or genre customarily allow for. SaGa: Scarlet Grace had a tutorial page entirely devoted to an imaginary statistical value of "affection" and how crucial it was to getting the most out of the game and I think that same mentality lives here in how the developers stress aspects of their work and what seems important to them, as a result landing on something genuinely introspective rather than a moralizing tenor that the text would be unequipped to support.
I never really shook off the SaGa allusions as I played. One important aspect is Yoko Shimomura's soundtrack, which is personally notable to me because historically I have not been too enamored with her work, and Legend is one of the exceptions. The expectation that when stepping in to contribute to a very solidly defined series that Mana was at this point is that the new material would contour around the definitions of the most definitive creative voice in its musical past, which was unquestionably Hiroki Kikuta, but that's not the impression I get. The battle tracks especially feel like they're calling to a particular composer's stylistic mode, and they're from a little deeper into the series's history, in Kenji Ito who started this whole thing off with scoring Seiken Densetsu--but even then, it's not specifically that work that feels relevant but his later iconic work in SaGa, as in the best battle themes in the genre. That's how the mood of pieces like "Pain the Universe" comes off to me and ties into the larger impression of everything here rippling strongly off the waves created by that series. I don't want to undermine Shimomura's personalizations either as the score is vast and heartfelt in tone throughout, and it still overcomes me that Swedish vocals were given such a marquee role in shaping the identity.
The approach to writing in this is so interesting to me. It's not really plot or objective-driven and concerned. The longform stories exist (I followed the faerie story to its conclusion) but it also doesn't seem too relevant what actually happens in them, as they're vehicles to set up the characters to debate their ways and views on life and personal realities with one another rather than resolving whatever material concern is at hand. A late-game conversation between Nunuzac and Pokiehl--two figures that are practically walking and talking symbols to begin with--took on the shape of a theological debate, practically. Even in the lighter fare like Gilbert's misadventures (of which I saw the Monique chapter) there's an air of colliding philosophical tenets rather than the direct drama of romantic conflict in what's actually being said, and the resolution isn't one painted as a joke or something inevitably sordid; just two people finding their personal values incompatible and drifting apart. It's impossible to overlook how much the game talks about and is invested in the concept of love, and how much what begins as lip service can then tie in to the thematic underpinnings of imagination, creation and investing of yourself into the game that you're being given an active role in forming along the way in more intimate ways than the medium or genre customarily allow for. SaGa: Scarlet Grace had a tutorial page entirely devoted to an imaginary statistical value of "affection" and how crucial it was to getting the most out of the game and I think that same mentality lives here in how the developers stress aspects of their work and what seems important to them, as a result landing on something genuinely introspective rather than a moralizing tenor that the text would be unequipped to support.
The dialogs with Nunuzac and Pokhiel are amazing, and I can think of few other games that get away with so much random philosophizing in a way that feels as natural and engaging. I love the way the game just indulges all its characters to explore wherever and whatever they want. Even if my reaction to some of their speeches is "that was a beautifully put load of complete bullshit", that's okay, because there's probably another character around the corner with a diametrically opposed philosophy who is treated as just as valid.
I won't actually be able to get around to playing this for a while, but I am listening to the remastered soundtrack. Most of it is kind of overorchestrated? Not a fan. A few tracks are actually really good, Polpota harbor being one, and they really aced it on my favorite from the original: The Wind Sings of a Journey.
I'm not in as huge a rush to get this as I was SaGa Frontier Remastered, but I am happy that more people are able to experience this game and will definitely be picking it up eventually.
Final Fantasy gets all the intention but all of Squaresoft's 90s output is really amazing, even (especially) the more divisive stuff.
Final Fantasy gets all the intention but all of Squaresoft's 90s output is really amazing, even (especially) the more divisive stuff.
that was a real drakengard 3 moment
of course i don't think that even understanding that idea would convince every player to enjoy the game; i've had similar feelings playing breath of the wild, which i've found compelling but often frustrated by, and am really not sure at this point i'll ever want to sit down and "finish". but i do think we exist in a time where games viewed as "weird" like this are reaching eager audiences more successfully than ever, and like so many of square's other recent releases i'm thrilled that at least a few people will discover something to love through this release (of a game that i myself only played last year)
it seems likely to me that you would've seen me post this interview from the ultimania in another thread where this game was a topic of discussion, but just in case you (or anyone else who plays this game) haven't read it it's definitely something that touches on a lot of these ideas at the start. it's a really interesting thing to consider since the game definitely has a lot of similarities to frontier, and some to other SaGa titles even; it makes me happy to see the evidence that that's not solely down to one person, regardless of how much i enjoy the work that's often been primarily attributed to him. of course it seems even in that sense that his influence made it in through the contributions of others he's worked with even if it's not very directly represented by the game as it exists, and it's hard for me not to find that even more exciting. the world can always use more weird creators, especially working on relatively high-profile works like this.
i do think this game tends to not click for people for the same reason that SaGa does, despite the irony that i think people find that series confusing and difficult while this game is confusing and fairly even-tempered with the difficulty despite that. it's hard to get in way over your head the same way i saw people talking about with frontier's remaster, and i understand this game to be much more "breakable" if anything, but as i remember saying before this is a game which affords the player a tremendous amount of freedom, and uniquely, to a point of almost feeling like it doesn't even acknowledge that freedom. even outside the fundamental structure which generally progresses the game in collaboration with the player, prompting them to engage with storylines or characters but never insisting upon it, the game just doesn't seem to "care" if a player engages with the various creation systems, the synchro mechanics, chooses partners and pets carefully, and so on, because the design doesn't feature anything strict enough to force that kind of focus.
of course i don't think that even understanding that idea would convince every player to enjoy the game; i've had similar feelings playing breath of the wild, which i've found compelling but often frustrated by, and am really not sure at this point i'll ever want to sit down and "finish". but i do think we exist in a time where games viewed as "weird" like this are reaching eager audiences more successfully than ever, and like so many of square's other recent releases i'm thrilled that at least a few people will discover something to love through this release (of a game that i myself only played last year)
Violentvixen
(She/Her)
I (finally) started playing this last night, and I love the new intro. The final bit showing the map and the characters above it adds something to clarify the game in a really beautiful way. I looked up the original for comparison too.
Anyway, I'm a lady with a knife and sproutlings have no souls, you know.
Anyway, I'm a lady with a knife and sproutlings have no souls, you know.
Violentvixen
(She/Her)
Not particularly in depth, but I found this interview with Yoko Shimomura while looking up stuff for the Female Composer Dome, it's a fun light read.
Thanks for sharing! I think there is a pretty timeless element to the compositions due to their original arrangement. I recently completed my play-through of the remaster, and as I've already heard the original OST many times, I kept the updated version on for all of it. I didn't have a particularly strong reaction one way or the other, although I do agree with Issun's reaction: they added more orchestrative elements to tracks that really didn't need 'em to begin with. Or the vocal/choir backings to various songs where I feel like they mostly take up valuable space between the other sounds. But, all the melodies still shine through just fine - even on handheld speaker mode - so I'm not left with any convictions about how somebody new to the series should experience it, only the my preferences.
More noticeable to me was the way they touched up the script in certain places? While the occasional change was to add clarity to an interaction, some of the the changes seemed to be just for the sake of change? A few interactions were blunted by the touch-up; I'll see if I can find any comparison screenshots to demonstrate. Like the updated OST, the changes felt unnecessary but never interfered with the main ideas being communicated; and, there were a few conversations that benefit from the maintenance: The script in the Jumi quest "Fluorite", even considering the dream context, was a mire in places of the original script. Anyway: the spots where the script was changed aren't exceedingly numerous as it isn't a full renovation by any stretch, so none of this is really a big deal at all.
The release also had some really positive changes. There are a few Pirate Penguin quests that could be failed in the original, and they weren't particularly fair to the player. In this release, however, they added safety nets so that the player could reattempt during the quest without failing and having to reload. What with the other amenities, I think M2 put together a release that will continue to stand up to time and please old and new players alike.
More noticeable to me was the way they touched up the script in certain places? While the occasional change was to add clarity to an interaction, some of the the changes seemed to be just for the sake of change? A few interactions were blunted by the touch-up; I'll see if I can find any comparison screenshots to demonstrate. Like the updated OST, the changes felt unnecessary but never interfered with the main ideas being communicated; and, there were a few conversations that benefit from the maintenance: The script in the Jumi quest "Fluorite", even considering the dream context, was a mire in places of the original script. Anyway: the spots where the script was changed aren't exceedingly numerous as it isn't a full renovation by any stretch, so none of this is really a big deal at all.
The release also had some really positive changes. There are a few Pirate Penguin quests that could be failed in the original, and they weren't particularly fair to the player. In this release, however, they added safety nets so that the player could reattempt during the quest without failing and having to reload. What with the other amenities, I think M2 put together a release that will continue to stand up to time and please old and new players alike.
Violentvixen
(She/Her)
Continuing through this and agree on the remastered music. It's there but a lot of the added stuff just seems odd, and in some cases hides or replaces some of the most memorable parts.
But that is closest things to a complaint I have so far and it really isn't one. I'm curious if I'll notice the text changes you mentioned @demi, I haven't yet but am still early in the game and haven't done much of the main text-heavy questlines.
Being able to toggle encounters is magical.
But that is closest things to a complaint I have so far and it really isn't one. I'm curious if I'll notice the text changes you mentioned @demi, I haven't yet but am still early in the game and haven't done much of the main text-heavy questlines.
Being able to toggle encounters is magical.
Violentvixen
(She/Her)
The backgrounds in all areas are beautiful and magical in HD, but I just got to the SS Buccaneer and watching it roll on the sea in detail rather than big chunks o'pixels... holy crap.