Regarding the optional boss, he has a rather unique way of speaking and I found it kind of hard to parse how exactly he would sound, but of course fans have already done up animations that answer my questions.
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It's just you - Talking about Deltarune
- Thread starter SpoonyBard
- Start date
We need to talk more about Chapter 2.
More specifically, we need to talk more about Chapter 2's other route.
WARNING! HUGE SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT!
WARNING! HUGE SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT!
Chapter 2 generally goes to much wackier and sillier places than Chapter 1 did. A wacky queen, Punch-Out!! with giant robots, that sort of thing. But, depending on how you play it, it can also go to much, much darker places.
After a mere NPC appearance back in Chapter 1, Noelle Holiday becomes a playable character for a while in Chapter 2. She is timid, submissive, has a crush on Susie, and has silly combat animations. She starts with a negative Boldness score. It's implied that something happened to or with her MIA big sister December that made her the way she is.
Noelle also has a spell that can freeze enemies solid, which unlike general combat (where enemies escape after being damaged enough) leaves their bodies encased in ice on the world map.
You can order her to freeze every enemy you see. You can backtrack and have her freeze enemies in previous areas. As she turns more and more enemies into ice blocks, she starts to believe this will make her stronger.
That's when you can start emotionally abusing and gaslighting her...and turn her into a serial killer.
You insist that you and her are something more. You repeatedly demand that she get a ring to enhance her powers that you will never be able to afford until she does so; the ring seller is never seen again. Her battle animations go from comic relief to kind of cold. You have her freeze over puzzles. You force her to wear another ring that halves her magic costs but physically harms her. You can take and wear her watch.
And you have her brutally murder her friend by repeatedly ordering her to use a spell she doesn't know until she does so.
Berdly, the smug smart bird who's a wacky recurring boss throughout the chapter, sees that something is wrong with Noelle and correctly deduces that you're the cause of these problems. And you gaslight and abuse her into freezing him solid with a fatal ice spell.
Noelle, obviously broken, slowly walks away and leaves the party after this.
The rest of the chapter is largely trunctuated, with much less ground to cover. It's heavily implied that Noelle has gone off on a killing spree.
At the end, the bonus boss has taken over the final boss position the Queen would've. Near the end of the fight, the boss boosts his defense. You call for Susie and Ralsei to help a couple of times. They don't come. You call for Noelle and she immediately murders the meme puppet for you.
Back in the real world, Noelle assumes everything was just a nightmare. She tries to wake Berdly; he doesn't respond. She assumes he fell asleep and heads off to the hospital. While it's not outright stated he's pretty obviously dead for real.
If you follow her to the hospital, she is freaked out out that you followed her. And she is even moreso if you are wearing her watch. While Susie drops in before things can proceed further, it's obvious that she just realized her traumatic nightmare was very real.
On top of all of this, there are points where Kris is visibly horrified by what the Soul (READ: THE PLAYER) is making them do to this poor girl. I know the fans are desperate to assume they're a big villain or something instead of just a mischevious child whose pranks go too far, so when they're disturbed by what's they're being made to do...
I am both intrigued and heavily disturbed by what directions the full game will go in whenever it finally comes to fruition. It's one thing to just go around murdering everyone and everything, but abusing and manipulating somebody else into doing it...Goddamn...
After a mere NPC appearance back in Chapter 1, Noelle Holiday becomes a playable character for a while in Chapter 2. She is timid, submissive, has a crush on Susie, and has silly combat animations. She starts with a negative Boldness score. It's implied that something happened to or with her MIA big sister December that made her the way she is.
Noelle also has a spell that can freeze enemies solid, which unlike general combat (where enemies escape after being damaged enough) leaves their bodies encased in ice on the world map.
You can order her to freeze every enemy you see. You can backtrack and have her freeze enemies in previous areas. As she turns more and more enemies into ice blocks, she starts to believe this will make her stronger.
That's when you can start emotionally abusing and gaslighting her...and turn her into a serial killer.
You insist that you and her are something more. You repeatedly demand that she get a ring to enhance her powers that you will never be able to afford until she does so; the ring seller is never seen again. Her battle animations go from comic relief to kind of cold. You have her freeze over puzzles. You force her to wear another ring that halves her magic costs but physically harms her. You can take and wear her watch.
And you have her brutally murder her friend by repeatedly ordering her to use a spell she doesn't know until she does so.
Berdly, the smug smart bird who's a wacky recurring boss throughout the chapter, sees that something is wrong with Noelle and correctly deduces that you're the cause of these problems. And you gaslight and abuse her into freezing him solid with a fatal ice spell.
Noelle, obviously broken, slowly walks away and leaves the party after this.
The rest of the chapter is largely trunctuated, with much less ground to cover. It's heavily implied that Noelle has gone off on a killing spree.
At the end, the bonus boss has taken over the final boss position the Queen would've. Near the end of the fight, the boss boosts his defense. You call for Susie and Ralsei to help a couple of times. They don't come. You call for Noelle and she immediately murders the meme puppet for you.
Back in the real world, Noelle assumes everything was just a nightmare. She tries to wake Berdly; he doesn't respond. She assumes he fell asleep and heads off to the hospital. While it's not outright stated he's pretty obviously dead for real.
If you follow her to the hospital, she is freaked out out that you followed her. And she is even moreso if you are wearing her watch. While Susie drops in before things can proceed further, it's obvious that she just realized her traumatic nightmare was very real.
On top of all of this, there are points where Kris is visibly horrified by what the Soul (READ: THE PLAYER) is making them do to this poor girl. I know the fans are desperate to assume they're a big villain or something instead of just a mischevious child whose pranks go too far, so when they're disturbed by what's they're being made to do...
I am both intrigued and heavily disturbed by what directions the full game will go in whenever it finally comes to fruition. It's one thing to just go around murdering everyone and everything, but abusing and manipulating somebody else into doing it...Goddamn...
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Violentvixen
(She/Her)
Yeah, I didn't play that route but watched a playthough and it strongly pushes the difference in the Player versus Kris. All of her lines about the voice not sounding like Kris are interesting.
Yeah, I've thought about doing that route with my 'fight everyone' save from Chapter 1, but I dunno. It feels somehow worse than the Genocide route in Undertale due to how Noelle is treated, and while the battle with sans in Undertale hinted at laying blame at the player over the character it is far more explicit here.
Regardless, Toby Fox is doing more with Deltarune than Chapter 1 led me to believe.
Regardless, Toby Fox is doing more with Deltarune than Chapter 1 led me to believe.
Also, some more details on that path:
Personally, I think that whatever happened to Noelle's sister might be connected with the word 'Snowgrave', which is super ominous in and of itself. Maybe she's dead, and Noelle feels responsible? With how she kills Berdly, maybe December froze to death? It's all conjecture based on what we know so far, but I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened.
Oh and further adding to the 'it's the player forcing Noelle to do these things, not Kris', during the final battle of the 'Snowgrave' route when you gotta call on your friends to finish him off, the game says Kris calls out to Susie and Ralsie but specifically says 'You' whisper Noelle's name.
Oh and further adding to the 'it's the player forcing Noelle to do these things, not Kris', during the final battle of the 'Snowgrave' route when you gotta call on your friends to finish him off, the game says Kris calls out to Susie and Ralsie but specifically says 'You' whisper Noelle's name.
Regarding Dess/Noelle (nothing particular to the Weird Route):
Also, there's a detail in the hospital if you happen to do the Weird Route:
It's also worth noting that Chapter 1 technically had two variations to its ending --- one where Kris throws knives at the heart and one where they don't. I suspect whatever the final ending of the game is will essentially be the same regardless of your choices, but the precise timbre of it will vary wildly depending on your choices.
The Queen furnished everybody's rooms in her mansion according to their internet search history. In Noelle's case, she has a calendar where every month is December and every day is Christmas, implying that she searched for “December Holiday” repeatedly. Assuming Dess is indeed short for December, this implies that whatever happened to Dess is less likely to be a death and more likely to be a missing person case (a common theory is Dess got lost in a dark world somewhere).
Also, there's a detail in the hospital if you happen to do the Weird Route:
The sliding bead toy in the hospital lobby --- the one where the game says "the beads march grimly along their set path" in Chapter 1 --- has a bit of extra flavor text. It notes that the blue bead has broken off of the toy. Berdly may be gone, but you still haven't broken yourself away from your fated path.
It's also worth noting that Chapter 1 technically had two variations to its ending --- one where Kris throws knives at the heart and one where they don't. I suspect whatever the final ending of the game is will essentially be the same regardless of your choices, but the precise timbre of it will vary wildly depending on your choices.
Violentvixen
(She/Her)
I did not know that, interesting! And I think the biggest question right now for me is what Kris' behaviour is like without the Player around. Slashing tires and creating dark fountains is extremely weird, but the question to me is if Kris is a hero or villain. I wonder if the final ending will be fighting Kris, or if you choose the more evil path fighting everyone else? Or as noted maybe it doesn't matter and we just ending up fighting Titans no matter what.
Just finished up Chapter 2! A few of my personal thoughts.
HUGE SPOILERS FOR CHAPTERS 1 & 2!
HUGE SPOILERS FOR CHAPTERS 1 & 2!
Gonna separate these by characters.
I don't think that the real Kris is an evil villain like some fans do. But what I do think is that the player's SOUL is not the only outside force that's controlling their body. The kid was terrified of the silly meme puppet who wanted to cut his own strings and grafted his head to a Flash puppet of Mettaton NEO, and I doubt it's just 'cuz Spamton was an extremely brutal boss fight.
My bet's on the enigmatic Knight (whoever or whatever they are) possessing their body in the real world. Said possessions all have happened at night, too.
My bet's on the enigmatic Knight (whoever or whatever they are) possessing their body in the real world. Said possessions all have happened at night, too.
She's gone through a lot of character development over the past two chapters but we still don't know too much about her life outside of the dark world. It'd be nice to learn some more about her besides the residents she's crossed and that she's in no rush to contact her own family.
Still not sure what to make of the kid. He seems genuinely nice, but with the prophecies that only he brings up and now a dedicated hub town for collecting recruited enemies...Could be up to something by playing the long game, could be a red herring and legitimately good.
Chapter 3's looking like Toriel will be dragged along for the ride this time so I'm interested in seeing where things go when she sees someone who looks a lot like her son. Maybe the face-obscuring hat will temporarily come out of retirement?
Chapter 3's looking like Toriel will be dragged along for the ride this time so I'm interested in seeing where things go when she sees someone who looks a lot like her son. Maybe the face-obscuring hat will temporarily come out of retirement?
I doubt we've seen the last of her in the Dark World, and not just 'cuz she has battle sprites and she's gained more confidence on the Good route...or become an obedient traumitized mass murderer at Kris's call on the Asshole route.
She's been friends with Kris for years and can tell something is off about them right now. She wants to get to know Susie better. Her father is in the hospital with an undisclosed illness. Her mother is the mayor who still hasn't even been seen yet and is implied to be far more strict with her. And her sister December...
Something is going to happen, there's a lot more potential story threads with Noelle and the Holiday family in general.
She's been friends with Kris for years and can tell something is off about them right now. She wants to get to know Susie better. Her father is in the hospital with an undisclosed illness. Her mother is the mayor who still hasn't even been seen yet and is implied to be far more strict with her. And her sister December...
Something is going to happen, there's a lot more potential story threads with Noelle and the Holiday family in general.
I think we're mostly done with him, and not just 'cuz he died in one route. He's had his character development, gone from an insufferable self-proclaimed genius to being a little less insufferable upon confessing that Noelle was always the smarter one and he only got where he was with her help.
He won't be a complete non-entity, but I doubt we'll see him in the Dark World again. He had his big arc.
He won't be a complete non-entity, but I doubt we'll see him in the Dark World again. He had his big arc.
They had rooms in Queen's palace (that you can't actually see), but that's probably just a fun li'l joke and I doubt anything will come from it.
I mean, I would be all for Catti getting in on the fun for an ep (She, Kris, and Noelle studied the occult and she taught the latter protection spells (also she doesn't get along with Susie 'cuz she stole Jockington's hat once)), but I'm not counting on it happening.
But that said, if frickin' Berdly can get in on an ep, you never know.
I mean, I would be all for Catti getting in on the fun for an ep (She, Kris, and Noelle studied the occult and she taught the latter protection spells (also she doesn't get along with Susie 'cuz she stole Jockington's hat once)), but I'm not counting on it happening.
But that said, if frickin' Berdly can get in on an ep, you never know.
I think there is enough evidence in the game to suggest that they've been doing this weird soul-ripping thing for a while. The flavor text makes it seem like that cage has seen a lot of use. Also, at the end of Chapter 2 when we take forever in the bathroom, Toriel says "oh yeah Kris sometimes does this", and then promptly makes an excuse to check outside (she didn't need to get sugar from the car given that she already had sugar inside).
As far as Kris's motivation, I don't think they're being strictly evil. I suspect the tire-slashing was a stunt to make sure Susie stayed overnight (because they like Susie, and want backup), and to make Toriel call the cops. The dialogue options with Undyne (in both chapters) imply that Kris wants to let her know about the dark worlds --- so creating a crime scene and leaving the front door open seems like a (rather desperate) way of making her find out.
This theory still seems a bit weird kinda weird to me (why switch the TV on and tune it to static?), but I think this is roughly equivalent to the level of misdirection as the Chapter 1 stinger (Kris didn't kill anyone, they just wanted pie (and maybe open the library fountain)). My general conclusion is that Kris is very weird, has some awareness or agenda that's unclear to us, is somewhat traumatized by family issues, but not actually evil.
As far as Kris's motivation, I don't think they're being strictly evil. I suspect the tire-slashing was a stunt to make sure Susie stayed overnight (because they like Susie, and want backup), and to make Toriel call the cops. The dialogue options with Undyne (in both chapters) imply that Kris wants to let her know about the dark worlds --- so creating a crime scene and leaving the front door open seems like a (rather desperate) way of making her find out.
This theory still seems a bit weird kinda weird to me (why switch the TV on and tune it to static?), but I think this is roughly equivalent to the level of misdirection as the Chapter 1 stinger (Kris didn't kill anyone, they just wanted pie (and maybe open the library fountain)). My general conclusion is that Kris is very weird, has some awareness or agenda that's unclear to us, is somewhat traumatized by family issues, but not actually evil.
I'm not sure what to make of the Roaring/Titans/etc. In the cutscene one of the big scary Titans looked like Asgore, which is interesting because the cyber Queen seems to be a reflection of Noelle's domineering mother, and (I suspect) the spade King was a reflection of Susie's dad. Because of those parallels, part of me thinks that the Titans will be the metaphysical/thematic equivalent of mean parents telling you to put your toys (darkners) away. Whatever the case is, the Roaring (and a showdown against the Titans) seems inevitable to me --- the kids know how to create dark fountains, and some of them even have obvious motives for wanting to do so (eg Noelle wanting to heal her dad), so by this point things will naturally get out of hand even without Kris's help.
I also had some thoughts about the disruption of the balance between light and dark representing some sort of context collapse (dark world objects are given form in reference to light world objects, but what happens when there aren't any more things for them to refer to?), but the thoughts aren't exactly coherent right now (feels like I'm overthinking things).
I also had some thoughts about the disruption of the balance between light and dark representing some sort of context collapse (dark world objects are given form in reference to light world objects, but what happens when there aren't any more things for them to refer to?), but the thoughts aren't exactly coherent right now (feels like I'm overthinking things).
Anyhow, if nothing else, I'm looking forward to the next chapter just to see how Ralsei and Toriel interact, and to see what unnerving off-brand abomination Deltarune's not-Yoshi will look like.
Violentvixen
(She/Her)
I was about to say "oh yeah there's no way they're showing Titans and not having us fight them" but this is all about subverting expectations so we'll see. That brief scene added a lot to the game world and opened up a lot of possibilities and questions in my head, I thought it was very cool. And another concerning thing about Ralsei is that he is the only one who knows this, maybe he even is one...
I look forward to when Ch3 comes out and I have forgotten everything and am totally confused.
I look forward to when Ch3 comes out and I have forgotten everything and am totally confused.
The Titans are vacuum cleaners! All our dogs will go see?! I told you so.
I notice something after Chapter 2's alternate final boss, which may not be significant but seemed interesting to me. Toby Fox has previously mentioned that Undertale's FIGHT/MERCY dynamic was partly inspired by Shin Megami Tensei's demon negotiation system. Another feature of several Megaten games it that they have multiple human party members, of whom the allies can use magic but the protagonist can only fight and summon/negotiate. Which is pretty much where we are with Deltarune, where Kris is the only party member who can't use magic. (Granted that could just be because Kris is the only human, but still: Susie = Chaos Hero, Noelle = Law Hero, Ralsei = Heroine, you know it to be true.)
Just a heads up for folks, while Chapters 1 and 2 had an optional superboss that you could always unlock no matter how far you got in each chapter, in Chapter 3 it seems like it's possible to lock yourself out of its optional superboss if you don't meet the requirements by a certain point. Still fuzzy on all the details, but I know the main criteria you need to worry about is getting S Rank in the first two rounds. If you don't, you can buy S rank from an NPC for 1500 points, either way you need it to do a thing after each round, and that's one of the prerequisites.
Ok so I'm 'done' with Chapter 3. Still haven't beaten the optional boss (more on that in a bit), but otherwise I have mixed feelings on it. Honestly it's absolutely for the best Toby Fox waited to release Chapters 3 and 4 at once, taken paired with 4 (I'm assuming) 3 will likely go down a lot better than it would have had it came out over a year ago on its own.
Chapter 3 certainly isn't even close to bad, but it is very different from the first two chapters. Looking at the fact this is planned to be a seven chapter game it's not even unexpected there'd be a chapter that is very different. I think my biggest problems with it are it is very mini-gamey, and the optional boss is perma-missable. Also the main antagonist, while a lot of fun, feels a bit like a warmed over Metatton crossed with Spamton. Definitely dig his 'pre-rendered sprite' vibe though, that plus his VHS intro is very 90s.
So, if anyone wants instructions on how to get to the Chapter 3 optional boss, here they are as non-spoilery as possible:
So all that aside, we gotta talk about the big elephant in the room, the identity of Chapter 3's optional boss, and there's no way not to spoil any part of that so here's another spoiler pop, cause it's a doozy.
Chapter 3 certainly isn't even close to bad, but it is very different from the first two chapters. Looking at the fact this is planned to be a seven chapter game it's not even unexpected there'd be a chapter that is very different. I think my biggest problems with it are it is very mini-gamey, and the optional boss is perma-missable. Also the main antagonist, while a lot of fun, feels a bit like a warmed over Metatton crossed with Spamton. Definitely dig his 'pre-rendered sprite' vibe though, that plus his VHS intro is very 90s.
So, if anyone wants instructions on how to get to the Chapter 3 optional boss, here they are as non-spoilery as possible:
1. You have to get rank S in the first two rounds. You CAN buy an S rank from an NPC in the lower right of the room below the Green Room if you didn't get it, for 1500 points, but it doesn't hurt to try and get it yourself. One tip for the 'videogame' portion of the two rounds is to try and get 1500 points in them (you can repeatedly 'grind' coins on a few screens to help with that in the first one) since doing so will give you a 'T' score which will help your averages, but even if you don't get the S-rank for the round getting the 1500 points will let you just buy it.
2. After the first round go to the special S-rank room and talk to the NPC on the left, he'll let you in a room which will let you replay a modified version of the 'videogame' portion of the previous round. For the first one you have to find the sword and kill everything until it powers up enough that you can chop trees down, then cut your way through the trees on the right side of the map until you find a chest with the Ice Key.
3. After the second round go to the S-rank room again and go back to the console to play a modified version of the second videogame portion. This one is a bit more elaborate but eventually you'll find your way to a raft in the ocean section, and you have to sail north. If you explored the ocean in during that segment in Round 2 Tenna would eventually teleport you away and close it off, so now you proceed past it. You'll eventually come to a door you unlock with the Ice Key. Go through this dungeon killing what you can until you eventually come across a hooded figure that is clearly supposed to be Noelle. Use her to freeze unkillable enemies to continue forward. Eventually you'll come to a 'Lost Woods' series of screens, you have to pay attention to which paths 'Noelle' will actually take, and only take those. Eventually you'll get to the end and get a 'Shelter Key'.
4. From there play through the chapter as normal until you return to the Green Room. Go back to the S-Rank room and go back to the console one more time. Since there was no videogame portion in what was Round 3 this will be all new. Go to the bottom left corner of the area to find your sword, then you'll need to use it to kill 'Susie' and 'Ralsei', as they are the only things that can power your sword up to destory the velvet rope barriers. Move on past them into a manhole cover and into a dungeon. Once again, kill everything in the dungeon (there's a room in the upper area with a whole lot of benign weak creatures that have a high chance to drop health, use this to recover if needed but you will need to kill everything eventually). Once everything is dead and you can destroy the last barrier you'll encounter the optional boss beyond it.
5. This boss is tricky and very quick so the best advice I can give is to play defensively. Going aggro is a quick way to get killed. Attack when you get an opening and focus on dodging otherwise. It will go down, and you will be rewarded with the 'Shadowmantle', which will make it much more feasible to beat the ACTUAL optional boss of the chapter.
6. Return to story and proceed to the end, defeating Tenna, and then when The Thing happens and you get into the otherwise unwinnable fight the Shadowmantle will make it slightly more possible. You absolutely can win this fight without it, but it is absolutely not meant to be won without it, and honestly is barely meant to be won WITH it. I still haven't beaten this thing, and that's a gripe for the next spoiler pop
2. After the first round go to the special S-rank room and talk to the NPC on the left, he'll let you in a room which will let you replay a modified version of the 'videogame' portion of the previous round. For the first one you have to find the sword and kill everything until it powers up enough that you can chop trees down, then cut your way through the trees on the right side of the map until you find a chest with the Ice Key.
3. After the second round go to the S-rank room again and go back to the console to play a modified version of the second videogame portion. This one is a bit more elaborate but eventually you'll find your way to a raft in the ocean section, and you have to sail north. If you explored the ocean in during that segment in Round 2 Tenna would eventually teleport you away and close it off, so now you proceed past it. You'll eventually come to a door you unlock with the Ice Key. Go through this dungeon killing what you can until you eventually come across a hooded figure that is clearly supposed to be Noelle. Use her to freeze unkillable enemies to continue forward. Eventually you'll come to a 'Lost Woods' series of screens, you have to pay attention to which paths 'Noelle' will actually take, and only take those. Eventually you'll get to the end and get a 'Shelter Key'.
4. From there play through the chapter as normal until you return to the Green Room. Go back to the S-Rank room and go back to the console one more time. Since there was no videogame portion in what was Round 3 this will be all new. Go to the bottom left corner of the area to find your sword, then you'll need to use it to kill 'Susie' and 'Ralsei', as they are the only things that can power your sword up to destory the velvet rope barriers. Move on past them into a manhole cover and into a dungeon. Once again, kill everything in the dungeon (there's a room in the upper area with a whole lot of benign weak creatures that have a high chance to drop health, use this to recover if needed but you will need to kill everything eventually). Once everything is dead and you can destroy the last barrier you'll encounter the optional boss beyond it.
5. This boss is tricky and very quick so the best advice I can give is to play defensively. Going aggro is a quick way to get killed. Attack when you get an opening and focus on dodging otherwise. It will go down, and you will be rewarded with the 'Shadowmantle', which will make it much more feasible to beat the ACTUAL optional boss of the chapter.
6. Return to story and proceed to the end, defeating Tenna, and then when The Thing happens and you get into the otherwise unwinnable fight the Shadowmantle will make it slightly more possible. You absolutely can win this fight without it, but it is absolutely not meant to be won without it, and honestly is barely meant to be won WITH it. I still haven't beaten this thing, and that's a gripe for the next spoiler pop
So all that aside, we gotta talk about the big elephant in the room, the identity of Chapter 3's optional boss, and there's no way not to spoil any part of that so here's another spoiler pop, cause it's a doozy.
So the Roaring Knight seemingly kills Tenna and tries to take Toriel, the party intervents. And...
...that's Dess, isn't it? The Roaring Knight is Dess. Noelle's sister December. Just look at the horns.
Oh and she is an absolute monster. She is far and away more brutal a fight than Jevil or Spamton. I don't know if she's as difficult as sans. Since the fight can be much shorter than that, probably not quite, but her attacks still feel overwhelming, and the Shadowmantle only helps soften the blows for one party member. Give it to Susie, since you need her RudeBuster to stand a chance of ending it quick enough.
I still haven't won, and I'm not sure how long my patience will hold out since I really want to start Chapter 4, but this uncompleted thing in Chapter 3 is holding me back. Which I absolutely know Toby Fox did on purpose, that rascal, he knew everyone who went through the first two chapters got the Shards from Jevil and Spamton and of course they'll want the one from Chapter 3, because what if they do something at the end??? But this fight... this fight... I would not be surprised if this is his unsubtle way of saying 'lol they won't matter'.
I've heard that if you beat an optional boss then you can get the items from the boss in a later Chapter in Castle Town, even if you didn't use a save file with that boss beaten, so maybe I'm halting my progress for nothing. But still, this boss hasn't worn me down yet.
Maybe soon though.
...that's Dess, isn't it? The Roaring Knight is Dess. Noelle's sister December. Just look at the horns.
Oh and she is an absolute monster. She is far and away more brutal a fight than Jevil or Spamton. I don't know if she's as difficult as sans. Since the fight can be much shorter than that, probably not quite, but her attacks still feel overwhelming, and the Shadowmantle only helps soften the blows for one party member. Give it to Susie, since you need her RudeBuster to stand a chance of ending it quick enough.
I still haven't won, and I'm not sure how long my patience will hold out since I really want to start Chapter 4, but this uncompleted thing in Chapter 3 is holding me back. Which I absolutely know Toby Fox did on purpose, that rascal, he knew everyone who went through the first two chapters got the Shards from Jevil and Spamton and of course they'll want the one from Chapter 3, because what if they do something at the end??? But this fight... this fight... I would not be surprised if this is his unsubtle way of saying 'lol they won't matter'.
I've heard that if you beat an optional boss then you can get the items from the boss in a later Chapter in Castle Town, even if you didn't use a save file with that boss beaten, so maybe I'm halting my progress for nothing. But still, this boss hasn't worn me down yet.
Maybe soon though.
Welp I beat chapter 4 and early on there were some story stuff that kind of threw this big speculation into question:
Because after a few scenes in Chapter 4, you get a pretty big sequence of events at a new town location:
Anyway, Chapter 4 also has a bonus boss (technically two, but one is the big obvious chapter secret boss while the other is just a fun easter egg fight), and it is a much more reasonable sequence of events to find it, but like Chapter 3 it is also perma-missible, which I don't love. Tips for getting to and beating it:
Chapter 4 has a lot of story stuff at the end I'd like to talk about, but I'll wait a few more days for more folks to beat it. It did have an interesting tease at the end though: Chapter 5, 2026. The wait from Chapter 2 to the release of 3 and 4 felt a bit too long, but if that time was spent getting the remaining game ready to release more quickly then that's great.
Toby Fox might regret giving that Chapter 4 midboss that one voice line, though, because he's now given his fans the perfect clip to throw at him every time he mentions Chapter 5 is in progress: YOUR TAKING TOO LONG.
Because after a few scenes in Chapter 4, you get a pretty big sequence of events at a new town location:
You visit Noelle's house, and after a lot of shenanigans with Kris's heart (more on that in a future post) we see a non-hearted Kris speaking on a phone to who we assume must be the Roaring Knight, or someone equally sinister. It's implied that the person Kris is speaking to heads straight to Noelle's house to keep Susie from finding the Shelter password, and the person that shows up is Carol, Noelle and Dess's mom.
And booooooooooy I don't think there has been a more suspicious character introduction, certainly not in one of Toby Fox's games. Carol might as well be waving a big 'I'm the Villain' flag. It's so obvious, in fact, I wouldn't be too shocked if it turns out to be a big misdirect. But it does give another plausible contender for the identity of the Knight, since she has the same horns.
My gut still says it's Dess, but who knows at this point. Either way, Carol is up to something. Whether it's straight up villainy or just being a really shitty parent remains to be seen.
Also speaking of shitty parents holy crap that last scene of the chapter with Toriel and sans. I feel you Kris, I've been the kid trying to sleep while drunken adults downstairs just Do. Not. Stop.
And booooooooooy I don't think there has been a more suspicious character introduction, certainly not in one of Toby Fox's games. Carol might as well be waving a big 'I'm the Villain' flag. It's so obvious, in fact, I wouldn't be too shocked if it turns out to be a big misdirect. But it does give another plausible contender for the identity of the Knight, since she has the same horns.
My gut still says it's Dess, but who knows at this point. Either way, Carol is up to something. Whether it's straight up villainy or just being a really shitty parent remains to be seen.
Also speaking of shitty parents holy crap that last scene of the chapter with Toriel and sans. I feel you Kris, I've been the kid trying to sleep while drunken adults downstairs just Do. Not. Stop.
Anyway, Chapter 4 also has a bonus boss (technically two, but one is the big obvious chapter secret boss while the other is just a fun easter egg fight), and it is a much more reasonable sequence of events to find it, but like Chapter 3 it is also perma-missible, which I don't love. Tips for getting to and beating it:
Once you beat the big chapter mid-boss (you'll know the one) you get the climbing gear. After that, backtrack to early areas and climb all the things to find the three piano scores to play on the golden piano (don't worry about memorizing them, the game will show them when needed). Unlike Chapter 3 which requires a whole convoluted sequence of events to get the Shadowmantle (and honestly, now I'm thinking all of that might be part of the whole 'weird route' that started in Chapter 2, but I guess that's another post) this is really easy to find on your own, even without help, but still. You DO lose access to the fight if you progress too far in Chapter 4 so don't wait on it.
Once you unlock the door with the piano you can access the fight, and it's a solo Susie fight. The biggest tip I can offer to beat it is to spend some time casting Susie's 'OKHeal' ability once she learns it after the chapter midboss. Every time you cast it it becomes stronger by two points, for a total of 15 times, so it'll go from healing 30 HP to 60. Put +magic gear on Susie (defense doesn't matter, the boss does damage in set amounts), I had the Jevil's Tail and Dealmaker from the pacfist wins on Jevil and Spamton and that let Susie's heal restore 72 points, which was absolutely necessary for my win.
As far as I can tell, using Rude Buster is a waste of TP. It does prompt a unique interaction when you use it, as you get into a game of Ganondorf Tennis with the boss, which lasts an extra round each time you use it, but I don't think it'll end the fight faster, and I absolutely needed the TP for healing instead.
I have mixed feelings about this fight. Jevil and Spamton were difficult, but they were fun fights, I found. This feels just a bit too mean, a few attacks are just too fast or chaotic for me to parse how to defend properly (that hammer-spam attack is some bullshit, who does he think he is, SMB1 Bowser?), but the worst is the Undyne-defense mechanic brought in from Undertale. It's fine when it's only 4 directions, but at one point in the fight it changes to 8 directional guarding, and at that point I lost a lot of my accuracy. It's possible it's just my controller, though, since it is an OG switch joycon, but even so, I just felt a lot of the hits I took trying to guard were not my fault and my diagonal button presses weren't being executed properly. Honestly this fight was a big bag of frustration, but I did at least beat it. Still haven't beaten the Knight in chapter 3.
Once you unlock the door with the piano you can access the fight, and it's a solo Susie fight. The biggest tip I can offer to beat it is to spend some time casting Susie's 'OKHeal' ability once she learns it after the chapter midboss. Every time you cast it it becomes stronger by two points, for a total of 15 times, so it'll go from healing 30 HP to 60. Put +magic gear on Susie (defense doesn't matter, the boss does damage in set amounts), I had the Jevil's Tail and Dealmaker from the pacfist wins on Jevil and Spamton and that let Susie's heal restore 72 points, which was absolutely necessary for my win.
As far as I can tell, using Rude Buster is a waste of TP. It does prompt a unique interaction when you use it, as you get into a game of Ganondorf Tennis with the boss, which lasts an extra round each time you use it, but I don't think it'll end the fight faster, and I absolutely needed the TP for healing instead.
I have mixed feelings about this fight. Jevil and Spamton were difficult, but they were fun fights, I found. This feels just a bit too mean, a few attacks are just too fast or chaotic for me to parse how to defend properly (that hammer-spam attack is some bullshit, who does he think he is, SMB1 Bowser?), but the worst is the Undyne-defense mechanic brought in from Undertale. It's fine when it's only 4 directions, but at one point in the fight it changes to 8 directional guarding, and at that point I lost a lot of my accuracy. It's possible it's just my controller, though, since it is an OG switch joycon, but even so, I just felt a lot of the hits I took trying to guard were not my fault and my diagonal button presses weren't being executed properly. Honestly this fight was a big bag of frustration, but I did at least beat it. Still haven't beaten the Knight in chapter 3.
Chapter 4 has a lot of story stuff at the end I'd like to talk about, but I'll wait a few more days for more folks to beat it. It did have an interesting tease at the end though: Chapter 5, 2026. The wait from Chapter 2 to the release of 3 and 4 felt a bit too long, but if that time was spent getting the remaining game ready to release more quickly then that's great.
Toby Fox might regret giving that Chapter 4 midboss that one voice line, though, because he's now given his fans the perfect clip to throw at him every time he mentions Chapter 5 is in progress: YOUR TAKING TOO LONG.
Isrieri
My father told me this would happen
I was super excited to pick up Deltarune and play it over the weekend. Fantastic game that gets full marks. The game is pulling some *wild* narrative tricks and I'm eager to see where the story goes. When I faced the chapter 3 superboss, it was way too hard so I wimped out on it and decided to play through the rest of the game before going back and properly beating it on a weird route save file.
I wanted to post about story stuff and discuss all the cool implications but I've come to the decision that the boss fight was so unforgivably brutal it requires a step-by-step guide. So I wrote that instead.
There may be a better strategy that I'm not aware of but this is how I did it. Obviously, big spoilers. Don't open until you've at least beaten chapter 3.
I wanted to post about story stuff and discuss all the cool implications but I've come to the decision that the boss fight was so unforgivably brutal it requires a step-by-step guide. So I wrote that instead.
There may be a better strategy that I'm not aware of but this is how I did it. Obviously, big spoilers. Don't open until you've at least beaten chapter 3.
STRATEGY
Before you go into the fight, you'll want to get the Shadow Mantle by playing through the NES game backstage. Stuff your inventory with as many Mints as you can, and food that heals over 100. You can get a bunch of those Deluxe Dinners by spending points at the gacha machine. I'd also bring along one group heal and maybe a TP boosting item but an extra slot for food is invaluable. The only other thing I bought in the chapter was an axe for Susie cuz she'll need the attack power. Stockpile all your good stuff for after the fight with Tenna, then go back to the save point to retrieve it and load up the gear you want:
1) Give Susie the Shadow Mantle. She is going to be your sole attacker and you should be trying to squeeze in Rude Buster blows every turn after the first. If you don't have the TP, then defend unless Kris is about to die and Ralsei is K.Od.
2) Make Kris into your main healer and TP generator. How you heal is vitally important - don't prioritize Susie because she'll be able to tank a lot of the abuse and needs to be getting damage in. Its best to revive her if she dies or heal when in low teens/single digits. The boss' attacks do hundreds of damage and certain bullets can two-shot or even one-shot Ralsei & Kris if they aren't defending so give them your best defensive equips.
3) Ralsei has one job and that is to defend. You need Rude Buster every turn. Have him heal Kris in emergencies because you don't want to waste Mints on him. Don't use his Heal Prayer, only items.
=======
[PHASE 1]
=======
PK Snowstorm
For the first turn, have everyone defend for TP. The 'snowflake' part of the bullets won't hurt, its actually the circles in the center you need to avoid. This is pretty easy to learn how to take advantage of for TP. When the snowflakes explode, use dainty taps to avoid the shrapnel. You should be able to get through this one taking only one hit or fewer.
Flash Swords
Second turn, Act with Kris to hold his breath so as to move the heart more quickly. Start using Rude Buster with Susie. These swords are very dangerous and will probably be the thing that kills you the most in the fight. Try to press only the cardinal directions as that also dodges the diagonal swords. Later they will be nigh imossible to react to, so use this turn to lock into the sound they make before firing off.
Boxcutter
You'll see a red line which determines whether the boss is going to cut the field horizontal or vertical. Move the heart all the way to a wall parallel to the cut you see and try to stay away from the corners. This is a deliberately awkward attack but it can be learned with patience: The box will jump in and out from the center and this will create a weird kind of 'jumping physics' that you only need to move laterally to take advantage of. Weaving between the 'stones' that leap off from the cut will seem impossible but realize that you're not trying to find a gap to drop into. Focus your eyes on the stones that are moving slowly because you're want to 'land' on those slow ones and then just move out of the way at the last second. If you only focus on the fast stones you'll know where the gaps are but it will be much harder to swerve to avoid the slow ones.
Needle Tunnel
Two lines of swords will barrel in from the right at mach speed and the tunnel is very tight. The trick to surviving this is to move slightly back as soon as your able, then as the swords roll in move slightly up and then slightly back down again to clear the first big "bump". Don't try to watch the heart or the swords but look a little to your right at the negative space that makes up the tunnel. "Pressing" is not the solution, for this you should be doing very light rapid taps of up and down to wiggle through. About the same speed as you hear the TP ticks from grazing. The swords will suddenly stop and pivot with a net of lines on their trajectory - find the biggest hole and get inside it. I was able to eventually no-hit this multiple times so don't get discouraged.
Cross Slash
Try to move only left and right to dodge these - going in a circle will get you killed quick. Since you start at the center of the field the first two slashes may catch you off guard but after that its easy to get into a groove. Pay attention to which way the attack is spinning: As you move away from the spoke it may still get you, so go a light tap up or down to go diagonal at the last second should be enough to avoid damage. Lastly don't move too far away from the axel of the wheel - the further you are from the center the faster the spokes move and you won't escape. Very tricky, but this is a breather pattern compared to what's coming up.
=======
[PHASE 2]
=======
PK Snowstorm
The same as the first phase. Heal up before the attack if anybody's hurting. If you've somehow managed to do get to Phase 2 with minimal punishment don't be tempted to attack with Kris or Ralsei. The boss' defense is too high for it to matter and the TP and damage reduction is too valuable.
Boxcutter II
This is where the kid gloves come off. Now the boss will cut the field both horizontally and vertically. If you thought eyeballing the stones was confusing enough now you need to dial into that red line to know which wall you need to be leaned up against. If you're anywhere on that line when it strikes, you'll take a ton of damage. I say the center of a wall is still the best place to be since you'll want manuverability to maintain your groove more than needing to swap to a different wall. When the direction of the cuts swap hugging the wall may trap you in a corner by a bad pattern but I'd take that over cutting through the middle and losing reaction time.
Needle Wheel of Pain
Keep calm and stay focused. This attack is intimidating but not very threatening once you realize that you're keeping the heart in the center. As with the tunnel, you need to make very light rapid taps to shift the heart a few pixels through the revolving gap. Start by going right very slightly, then following the curve counterclockwise. This attack serves as a prelude to the worst patten in the whole fight so buckle up.
Blades of Death
Have EVERYBODY defend! These are souped up Flash Swords with a circle of spinning blades that force you to move very deliberately. The swords attack rapidly and are hard to spot through the circle. That's why I recommended only making small lateral movements earlier. The best advice I can give you is that you'll be pressured to move poorly to dodge the circle and make the attacking swords visible. Don't be afraid to take damage from the circle because being a sitting duck for the fast ones will end your run nigh instantly. If you manage to clear this without any of your characters dying then you've just performed a miracle.
Cross Slash II
Each slash spawns with all six spokes this time so as before, move up and down as little as you can get away with and focus only on spawning the wheels near the walls. The tricky part of this attack is that its trying to get you to move in a circle. Don't let it.
=======
[PHASE 3]
=======
PK Snowstorm Omega
A nasty surprise attack is waiting for you after the snowflakes explode. The shrapnel turns red and pivots on your position. They'll move in a straight line once they rocket off so look for the safest spot you can with a wide gap while they're still white, Then move toward that in little bursts as they turn red and try your best to weave between them. If by chance you can spot a clear path to a far wall, then move along that and you should be pretty safe.
Boxcutter III
Now, diagonal cuts are thrown into the mix. Trying to dodge here is a crapshoot: I was able to semi-master the first two Boxcutters but this one throws my groove off to possibly react in time.
Flash Swords II
This is the run-ender. No circle of swords this time but each attack strikes at maximum speed so just remember to focus on the cardinal swords - if you're dodging them, you're dodging the diagonals too. It wouldn't be so bad if you could practice it, but because this pattern is so far into the gauntlet you'll almost certainly be caught off guard by the swiftness of the onslaught. If by some miracle your characters are all above half health then have them all defend and cross your fingers. Else, focus on keeping Kris alive.
Needle Tunnel
Same as phase 1. Heal up before this turn as best as you can, but if Kris is dead and you're out of Mints then you'll have to power through without him.
Cross Slash III
Another surprise attack at the end of the normal pattern: A desperate series of slashes that pivot clockwise in a circle. Get to one side and hug the center to follow it around.
Final Howl
This final attack CAN kill you. Have Kris and Susie defend and Ralsei heal up Susie. Chances are that the boys will be dead, so if its just Susie defend and start sweating. Snowflakes will be drawn into the boss, first as a spread, then in a spiral that you'll have to follow around just like Cross Slash III. Don't hang out too close to the boss or too far away on the edges, you'll want some middle distance. Next they'll all fly outward before exploding into shrapnel. You'll be pushed backwards while this is happening so remember you're fighting against wind as you try to maintain that middle distance. If you manage to survive, the boss will lower its guard and one more attack will clinch victory.
Before you go into the fight, you'll want to get the Shadow Mantle by playing through the NES game backstage. Stuff your inventory with as many Mints as you can, and food that heals over 100. You can get a bunch of those Deluxe Dinners by spending points at the gacha machine. I'd also bring along one group heal and maybe a TP boosting item but an extra slot for food is invaluable. The only other thing I bought in the chapter was an axe for Susie cuz she'll need the attack power. Stockpile all your good stuff for after the fight with Tenna, then go back to the save point to retrieve it and load up the gear you want:
1) Give Susie the Shadow Mantle. She is going to be your sole attacker and you should be trying to squeeze in Rude Buster blows every turn after the first. If you don't have the TP, then defend unless Kris is about to die and Ralsei is K.Od.
2) Make Kris into your main healer and TP generator. How you heal is vitally important - don't prioritize Susie because she'll be able to tank a lot of the abuse and needs to be getting damage in. Its best to revive her if she dies or heal when in low teens/single digits. The boss' attacks do hundreds of damage and certain bullets can two-shot or even one-shot Ralsei & Kris if they aren't defending so give them your best defensive equips.
3) Ralsei has one job and that is to defend. You need Rude Buster every turn. Have him heal Kris in emergencies because you don't want to waste Mints on him. Don't use his Heal Prayer, only items.
=======
[PHASE 1]
=======
PK Snowstorm
For the first turn, have everyone defend for TP. The 'snowflake' part of the bullets won't hurt, its actually the circles in the center you need to avoid. This is pretty easy to learn how to take advantage of for TP. When the snowflakes explode, use dainty taps to avoid the shrapnel. You should be able to get through this one taking only one hit or fewer.
Flash Swords
Second turn, Act with Kris to hold his breath so as to move the heart more quickly. Start using Rude Buster with Susie. These swords are very dangerous and will probably be the thing that kills you the most in the fight. Try to press only the cardinal directions as that also dodges the diagonal swords. Later they will be nigh imossible to react to, so use this turn to lock into the sound they make before firing off.
Boxcutter
You'll see a red line which determines whether the boss is going to cut the field horizontal or vertical. Move the heart all the way to a wall parallel to the cut you see and try to stay away from the corners. This is a deliberately awkward attack but it can be learned with patience: The box will jump in and out from the center and this will create a weird kind of 'jumping physics' that you only need to move laterally to take advantage of. Weaving between the 'stones' that leap off from the cut will seem impossible but realize that you're not trying to find a gap to drop into. Focus your eyes on the stones that are moving slowly because you're want to 'land' on those slow ones and then just move out of the way at the last second. If you only focus on the fast stones you'll know where the gaps are but it will be much harder to swerve to avoid the slow ones.
Needle Tunnel
Two lines of swords will barrel in from the right at mach speed and the tunnel is very tight. The trick to surviving this is to move slightly back as soon as your able, then as the swords roll in move slightly up and then slightly back down again to clear the first big "bump". Don't try to watch the heart or the swords but look a little to your right at the negative space that makes up the tunnel. "Pressing" is not the solution, for this you should be doing very light rapid taps of up and down to wiggle through. About the same speed as you hear the TP ticks from grazing. The swords will suddenly stop and pivot with a net of lines on their trajectory - find the biggest hole and get inside it. I was able to eventually no-hit this multiple times so don't get discouraged.
Cross Slash
Try to move only left and right to dodge these - going in a circle will get you killed quick. Since you start at the center of the field the first two slashes may catch you off guard but after that its easy to get into a groove. Pay attention to which way the attack is spinning: As you move away from the spoke it may still get you, so go a light tap up or down to go diagonal at the last second should be enough to avoid damage. Lastly don't move too far away from the axel of the wheel - the further you are from the center the faster the spokes move and you won't escape. Very tricky, but this is a breather pattern compared to what's coming up.
=======
[PHASE 2]
=======
PK Snowstorm
The same as the first phase. Heal up before the attack if anybody's hurting. If you've somehow managed to do get to Phase 2 with minimal punishment don't be tempted to attack with Kris or Ralsei. The boss' defense is too high for it to matter and the TP and damage reduction is too valuable.
Boxcutter II
This is where the kid gloves come off. Now the boss will cut the field both horizontally and vertically. If you thought eyeballing the stones was confusing enough now you need to dial into that red line to know which wall you need to be leaned up against. If you're anywhere on that line when it strikes, you'll take a ton of damage. I say the center of a wall is still the best place to be since you'll want manuverability to maintain your groove more than needing to swap to a different wall. When the direction of the cuts swap hugging the wall may trap you in a corner by a bad pattern but I'd take that over cutting through the middle and losing reaction time.
Needle Wheel of Pain
Keep calm and stay focused. This attack is intimidating but not very threatening once you realize that you're keeping the heart in the center. As with the tunnel, you need to make very light rapid taps to shift the heart a few pixels through the revolving gap. Start by going right very slightly, then following the curve counterclockwise. This attack serves as a prelude to the worst patten in the whole fight so buckle up.
Blades of Death
Have EVERYBODY defend! These are souped up Flash Swords with a circle of spinning blades that force you to move very deliberately. The swords attack rapidly and are hard to spot through the circle. That's why I recommended only making small lateral movements earlier. The best advice I can give you is that you'll be pressured to move poorly to dodge the circle and make the attacking swords visible. Don't be afraid to take damage from the circle because being a sitting duck for the fast ones will end your run nigh instantly. If you manage to clear this without any of your characters dying then you've just performed a miracle.
Cross Slash II
Each slash spawns with all six spokes this time so as before, move up and down as little as you can get away with and focus only on spawning the wheels near the walls. The tricky part of this attack is that its trying to get you to move in a circle. Don't let it.
=======
[PHASE 3]
=======
PK Snowstorm Omega
A nasty surprise attack is waiting for you after the snowflakes explode. The shrapnel turns red and pivots on your position. They'll move in a straight line once they rocket off so look for the safest spot you can with a wide gap while they're still white, Then move toward that in little bursts as they turn red and try your best to weave between them. If by chance you can spot a clear path to a far wall, then move along that and you should be pretty safe.
Boxcutter III
Now, diagonal cuts are thrown into the mix. Trying to dodge here is a crapshoot: I was able to semi-master the first two Boxcutters but this one throws my groove off to possibly react in time.
Flash Swords II
This is the run-ender. No circle of swords this time but each attack strikes at maximum speed so just remember to focus on the cardinal swords - if you're dodging them, you're dodging the diagonals too. It wouldn't be so bad if you could practice it, but because this pattern is so far into the gauntlet you'll almost certainly be caught off guard by the swiftness of the onslaught. If by some miracle your characters are all above half health then have them all defend and cross your fingers. Else, focus on keeping Kris alive.
Needle Tunnel
Same as phase 1. Heal up before this turn as best as you can, but if Kris is dead and you're out of Mints then you'll have to power through without him.
Cross Slash III
Another surprise attack at the end of the normal pattern: A desperate series of slashes that pivot clockwise in a circle. Get to one side and hug the center to follow it around.
Final Howl
This final attack CAN kill you. Have Kris and Susie defend and Ralsei heal up Susie. Chances are that the boys will be dead, so if its just Susie defend and start sweating. Snowflakes will be drawn into the boss, first as a spread, then in a spiral that you'll have to follow around just like Cross Slash III. Don't hang out too close to the boss or too far away on the edges, you'll want some middle distance. Next they'll all fly outward before exploding into shrapnel. You'll be pushed backwards while this is happening so remember you're fighting against wind as you try to maintain that middle distance. If you manage to survive, the boss will lower its guard and one more attack will clinch victory.
Deltarune is enhanced by having knowledge of Undertale's story, and there is a light expectation of having finished Undertale. Many of the same characters appear, though there is no continuity between the games.
Deltarune has a more intricate iteration of the same basic combat system, where you dodge enemy bullet patterns and then select actions from a menu. Instead of a single character, you have a party of three. Both violent and nonviolent resolutions to combat are designed around having three characters with their own actions to choose from.
In terms of story, Deltarune has no major story branches. While it does still respond to your decisions, the differences between the responses don't affect the overall flow of the story. The episodic release model is integrated into the game structure.
Please be mindful of spoilers if you feel a desire to clarify or correct anything I have written.
Isrieri
My father told me this would happen
Its time to talk about theories. Ch. 4 lays down a lot of juicy teases and interesting information that I'm still trying to puzzle out.
Ralsei is from the dark world. He can't go to the light world, thus he must presumably follow the same rules as the other darkners. He too, is some inanimate object brought to life. However, how does he know about the school? How does he know about the prophecy? What is he up to when the gang isn't with him? How does he keep showing up in the same dark worlds that Kris and Susie show up in?
Ralsei looks just like Asriel for a reason. He isn't Asriel, but is the same kind of darkner as Gerson: A manifestation of someone from the light world. I'm not sure how all of that works exactly (the books in the library will probably shed some light on that in future chapters) but Kris' memories and wishes are what give Ralsei life just like Albert's strong loving memories of Gerson did. He keeps showing up everywhere the group goes because Kris is carrying him with them, just like he does Lancer. I don't know exactly what object Ralsei is manifesting from but my guess is Kris' knife. He always has it with him, and uses it to make the dark portals, so in a purely poetic sense you can call him a 'prince of the dark' that way. Ralsei also is clearly capable of doing serious damage as we see in Ch. 4 but holds himself back constantly. I can't quite make heads or tails of what this whole prophecy business is going to entail, but Ralsei doesn't see a future for himself and is carrying a lot of guilt about something.
Speaking of knowing more than he lets on, Ralsei knows Kris is possessed. He has to because he keeps telling Kris to close his eyes!! Those cutaways always end with Ralsei either going off to do something, or explaining something to Kris while 'we' were away. So Kris and Ralsei have been talking to one another about who knows what. The extent of what they've shared, and to what degree that may be involved in each other's business, is unclear. But Kris does not want the human soul in his body and I'm guessing Ralsei doesn't either. Now whether it was Kris who first told him this, or if he had knowledge of it because he knows about the prophecy, is anybody's guess.
I'll bet you that when Asriel finally shows up its going to be a big shock to unsuspecting players. He'll probably be very different from Ralsei.
Ralsei looks just like Asriel for a reason. He isn't Asriel, but is the same kind of darkner as Gerson: A manifestation of someone from the light world. I'm not sure how all of that works exactly (the books in the library will probably shed some light on that in future chapters) but Kris' memories and wishes are what give Ralsei life just like Albert's strong loving memories of Gerson did. He keeps showing up everywhere the group goes because Kris is carrying him with them, just like he does Lancer. I don't know exactly what object Ralsei is manifesting from but my guess is Kris' knife. He always has it with him, and uses it to make the dark portals, so in a purely poetic sense you can call him a 'prince of the dark' that way. Ralsei also is clearly capable of doing serious damage as we see in Ch. 4 but holds himself back constantly. I can't quite make heads or tails of what this whole prophecy business is going to entail, but Ralsei doesn't see a future for himself and is carrying a lot of guilt about something.
Speaking of knowing more than he lets on, Ralsei knows Kris is possessed. He has to because he keeps telling Kris to close his eyes!! Those cutaways always end with Ralsei either going off to do something, or explaining something to Kris while 'we' were away. So Kris and Ralsei have been talking to one another about who knows what. The extent of what they've shared, and to what degree that may be involved in each other's business, is unclear. But Kris does not want the human soul in his body and I'm guessing Ralsei doesn't either. Now whether it was Kris who first told him this, or if he had knowledge of it because he knows about the prophecy, is anybody's guess.
I'll bet you that when Asriel finally shows up its going to be a big shock to unsuspecting players. He'll probably be very different from Ralsei.
So our knight candidates are pretty slim pickings - its either Rudy, Carol, Dess, or some Dess-like homunculus like the Gerson found in Susie's dark world.
Dess is almost certainly the knight in a sense. A lot of the hints and clues from earlier chapters make a lot more sense if she is. Carol is not the knight in a sense, but she is the villain of the story. I don't know if Dess is dead or missing, but she wants her daughter back. She's very controlling of Noelle and we hear Rudy talk about how she never leaves anything 'important' outside of the house which indicates to me that she's hyper fixated on materializing Dess in the dark world and preventing whatever happened from happening again. I presume she is dead, as that makes all the Snowgrave stuff make sense. It would also explain why the guitar is so important to Carol.
Now the million dollar question: IS the knight Dess? Or is it some darkner creature? I think its the latter because why else would Carol need the guitar preserved? She could be opening up the fountains herself and then the guitar 'becomes' the knight, who is a manifestation of Dess. There's also a chance that Asgore could be opening the portals on Carol's behalf. Why does she need the knight, and why is she opening up portals to bring the Roaring? That I don't know. But that's my take - its neither Dess nor Carol: Its both.
Rudy is definitely not the knight but he is Carol's husband. Does he know anything about what's going on? And to what extent? Also, what is causing his illness? Its been implied that it was some type of cancer but it also could be related to whatever is going on in the dark world. Maybe he got a black shard stuck in him.
EDIT: Actually now that I think about it holy hot damn he very well could be the knight. I was fixated on the guitar, and if the knight follows the rules of darkners it needs a object to form from. But the guitar could be what Carol is going to try and reincarnate Dess from, using some kind of sacrifice. If Rudy isn't the knight he may well be the sacrifice? Maybe he's both and he needs to become the knight to be a sacrifice? He's not sick for NO REASON.
Poor Noelle doesn't deserve any of this crap. The weird route stuff with her is insanity. Its also very very interesting because it seems to be unexpected. Harming Noelle is not what Kris wants, nor do I think its what Carol wants. The human soul is deliberately bringing the events of that route about and it should be seen as the soul acting independently. Choosing to not be Carol's patsy and only using Kris as a host for its own ends; they shoulda called it the Demon route. I struggle to believe Carol would want to put her daughter at risk to bring back another one... HOWEVER:
There is one last idea that occured to me. Carol talks... very strained. And her demanor is unsettling. Maybe she's also possessed by a soul. No proof, but it would be a wild twist.
Dess is almost certainly the knight in a sense. A lot of the hints and clues from earlier chapters make a lot more sense if she is. Carol is not the knight in a sense, but she is the villain of the story. I don't know if Dess is dead or missing, but she wants her daughter back. She's very controlling of Noelle and we hear Rudy talk about how she never leaves anything 'important' outside of the house which indicates to me that she's hyper fixated on materializing Dess in the dark world and preventing whatever happened from happening again. I presume she is dead, as that makes all the Snowgrave stuff make sense. It would also explain why the guitar is so important to Carol.
Now the million dollar question: IS the knight Dess? Or is it some darkner creature? I think its the latter because why else would Carol need the guitar preserved? She could be opening up the fountains herself and then the guitar 'becomes' the knight, who is a manifestation of Dess. There's also a chance that Asgore could be opening the portals on Carol's behalf. Why does she need the knight, and why is she opening up portals to bring the Roaring? That I don't know. But that's my take - its neither Dess nor Carol: Its both.
Rudy is definitely not the knight but he is Carol's husband. Does he know anything about what's going on? And to what extent? Also, what is causing his illness? Its been implied that it was some type of cancer but it also could be related to whatever is going on in the dark world. Maybe he got a black shard stuck in him.
EDIT: Actually now that I think about it holy hot damn he very well could be the knight. I was fixated on the guitar, and if the knight follows the rules of darkners it needs a object to form from. But the guitar could be what Carol is going to try and reincarnate Dess from, using some kind of sacrifice. If Rudy isn't the knight he may well be the sacrifice? Maybe he's both and he needs to become the knight to be a sacrifice? He's not sick for NO REASON.
Poor Noelle doesn't deserve any of this crap. The weird route stuff with her is insanity. Its also very very interesting because it seems to be unexpected. Harming Noelle is not what Kris wants, nor do I think its what Carol wants. The human soul is deliberately bringing the events of that route about and it should be seen as the soul acting independently. Choosing to not be Carol's patsy and only using Kris as a host for its own ends; they shoulda called it the Demon route. I struggle to believe Carol would want to put her daughter at risk to bring back another one... HOWEVER:
There is one last idea that occured to me. Carol talks... very strained. And her demanor is unsettling. Maybe she's also possessed by a soul. No proof, but it would be a wild twist.
Kris is the most interesting and mysterious character and he's clearly trying to prevent something from coming to pass but I'm not sure what yet. At the end of Ch. 3, the door to the shelter opens just a crack before we cut to black. Almost certainly, Kris and whomever was behind that door had a conversation. Was that the first time they met? Or maybe they've known each other longer. Is it who Kris has been looking for?
Kris and Carol have some kind of relationship that is unclear, but Kris is also working with Dess behind the scenes. We see Kris being spared after the fight with the Knight and Carol talks to him in a very weird way. If you've gone through the weird route, Carol doesn't appear in the chapter till the very end when she calls Kris. She sounds noting like the creepy voice we hear on the phone at Noelle's. The vibe I get is that Kris is working with or trying to find Dess willingly. His relationship to Carol is reluctant and begrudging: When Kris leaves Noelle's house, she stops him and tells him that 'you' are welcome anytime. That 'you' is in red. She's absolutely talking to the player there, the human soul. So she knows about it. I'm guessing she's the one responsible for the soul being stuck with Kris.
Kris's connection to Dess is pretty strong. I don't know what the nature of it is, but since she and Asriel were apparently very close Kris probably saw her a lot and either looked up to her or cares about her as a close friend. Maybe there's some secret between the two, I dunno, but he's probably trying to find Dess just as badly as Carol. I don't know who was behind that shelter door, but since Kris and Carol have the same goal and that's probably why Kris has a human soul housed in him. Carol needs a human soul, and she needs a human to put one in, and Kris is that person.
Kris and Carol have some kind of relationship that is unclear, but Kris is also working with Dess behind the scenes. We see Kris being spared after the fight with the Knight and Carol talks to him in a very weird way. If you've gone through the weird route, Carol doesn't appear in the chapter till the very end when she calls Kris. She sounds noting like the creepy voice we hear on the phone at Noelle's. The vibe I get is that Kris is working with or trying to find Dess willingly. His relationship to Carol is reluctant and begrudging: When Kris leaves Noelle's house, she stops him and tells him that 'you' are welcome anytime. That 'you' is in red. She's absolutely talking to the player there, the human soul. So she knows about it. I'm guessing she's the one responsible for the soul being stuck with Kris.
Kris's connection to Dess is pretty strong. I don't know what the nature of it is, but since she and Asriel were apparently very close Kris probably saw her a lot and either looked up to her or cares about her as a close friend. Maybe there's some secret between the two, I dunno, but he's probably trying to find Dess just as badly as Carol. I don't know who was behind that shelter door, but since Kris and Carol have the same goal and that's probably why Kris has a human soul housed in him. Carol needs a human soul, and she needs a human to put one in, and Kris is that person.
So there are scenes at Noelle's house of Asgore talking to himself. He mentions some stuff about how him losing his job and getting divorced was because he was trying to protect the town from... something. The details of all of that are still unknown, but I'd wager that Asgore knows an awful lot about souls: He's working with flowers at his flower shop, and upstairs he has seven flowers that he's keeping in glass jars. All the same colors as the seven souls from Undertale. That game is not connected to this one so that fact is liable to go under the radar as just a callback; he's definitely doing some kind of experiments. I think he could be the voice you hear at the game's beginning. All the nutcases keep going on about OOH ITS GASTER but I'm pretty sure that 'character' is just the easter egg guy. Asgore is working for (and possibly with) Carol for some purpose.
As mentioned above, I think that Carol is trying to use a human soul for some reason. Maybe its to revive Dess, rematerialize her, or something unrelated. But Carol knowing about Kris' soul and Asgore being chummy with her is way too suspicious to be just a conincidence. Now, I don't know if Asgore knows how malicious Carol is. He probably knows nothing about the nature of the dark world or else the 'black shard' he holds would maybe mean something more. I don't even know if he's aware that Kris is being possessed. Still, he has a hand in this soul business for sure. If he is the mysterious voice, then he's the one pushing to form whatever the DELTA RUNE is.
As mentioned above, I think that Carol is trying to use a human soul for some reason. Maybe its to revive Dess, rematerialize her, or something unrelated. But Carol knowing about Kris' soul and Asgore being chummy with her is way too suspicious to be just a conincidence. Now, I don't know if Asgore knows how malicious Carol is. He probably knows nothing about the nature of the dark world or else the 'black shard' he holds would maybe mean something more. I don't even know if he's aware that Kris is being possessed. Still, he has a hand in this soul business for sure. If he is the mysterious voice, then he's the one pushing to form whatever the DELTA RUNE is.
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Isrieri
My father told me this would happen
Just to answer something you said in the spoilerpop:
I think hitting him with a Rude Buster shot lowers his attack. I did the fight twice and he was clobbering me the first time when I didn't know you could Buster him. Second time he was doing like 5 or 6 damage after two or three hits of it.
Did you have low HP during those attacks? Once you get down to around 30 or so Gerson's attacks will always do a fixed 5 HP of damage until you heal yourself back up.
Also
Good catch on Carol's demeanor, I wouldn't be surprised if she does have a foreign soul.
There's one other thing I noticed that links the Knight to Dess, either as a manifestation or her directly, All the bat references.
We know Dess had bats, in Chapter 1 Noelle mentions Dess once hit Kris with a wiffle ball bat after he scared Noelle. We can tell from her room that she was a sort of loner aspiring musician and I think it's a good chance she's the one who composed the song the party sings in the Round 2 challenge of Chapter 3, which was rife with bat imagery. The melody of that song is similar to some music that plays in Chapter 4 in Noelle's house too. And then when you fight the Knight in Chapter 3, when it manifests its sword at first it looks nothing like a sword and everything like a bat.
There's one other thing I noticed that links the Knight to Dess, either as a manifestation or her directly, All the bat references.
We know Dess had bats, in Chapter 1 Noelle mentions Dess once hit Kris with a wiffle ball bat after he scared Noelle. We can tell from her room that she was a sort of loner aspiring musician and I think it's a good chance she's the one who composed the song the party sings in the Round 2 challenge of Chapter 3, which was rife with bat imagery. The melody of that song is similar to some music that plays in Chapter 4 in Noelle's house too. And then when you fight the Knight in Chapter 3, when it manifests its sword at first it looks nothing like a sword and everything like a bat.
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