Regarding the optional boss, he has a rather unique way of speaking and I found it kind of hard to parse how exactly he would sound, but of course fans have already done up animations that answer my questions.
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It's just you - Talking about Deltarune
- Thread starter SpoonyBard
- Start date
We need to talk more about Chapter 2.
More specifically, we need to talk more about Chapter 2's other route.
WARNING! HUGE SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT!
WARNING! HUGE SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT!
Chapter 2 generally goes to much wackier and sillier places than Chapter 1 did. A wacky queen, Punch-Out!! with giant robots, that sort of thing. But, depending on how you play it, it can also go to much, much darker places.
After a mere NPC appearance back in Chapter 1, Noelle Holiday becomes a playable character for a while in Chapter 2. She is timid, submissive, has a crush on Susie, and has silly combat animations. She starts with a negative Boldness score. It's implied that something happened to or with her MIA big sister December that made her the way she is.
Noelle also has a spell that can freeze enemies solid, which unlike general combat (where enemies escape after being damaged enough) leaves their bodies encased in ice on the world map.
You can order her to freeze every enemy you see. You can backtrack and have her freeze enemies in previous areas. As she turns more and more enemies into ice blocks, she starts to believe this will make her stronger.
That's when you can start emotionally abusing and gaslighting her...and turn her into a serial killer.
You insist that you and her are something more. You repeatedly demand that she get a ring to enhance her powers that you will never be able to afford until she does so; the ring seller is never seen again. Her battle animations go from comic relief to kind of cold. You have her freeze over puzzles. You force her to wear another ring that halves her magic costs but physically harms her. You can take and wear her watch.
And you have her brutally murder her friend by repeatedly ordering her to use a spell she doesn't know until she does so.
Berdly, the smug smart bird who's a wacky recurring boss throughout the chapter, sees that something is wrong with Noelle and correctly deduces that you're the cause of these problems. And you gaslight and abuse her into freezing him solid with a fatal ice spell.
Noelle, obviously broken, slowly walks away and leaves the party after this.
The rest of the chapter is largely trunctuated, with much less ground to cover. It's heavily implied that Noelle has gone off on a killing spree.
At the end, the bonus boss has taken over the final boss position the Queen would've. Near the end of the fight, the boss boosts his defense. You call for Susie and Ralsei to help a couple of times. They don't come. You call for Noelle and she immediately murders the meme puppet for you.
Back in the real world, Noelle assumes everything was just a nightmare. She tries to wake Berdly; he doesn't respond. She assumes he fell asleep and heads off to the hospital. While it's not outright stated he's pretty obviously dead for real.
If you follow her to the hospital, she is freaked out out that you followed her. And she is even moreso if you are wearing her watch. While Susie drops in before things can proceed further, it's obvious that she just realized her traumatic nightmare was very real.
On top of all of this, there are points where Kris is visibly horrified by what the Soul (READ: THE PLAYER) is making them do to this poor girl. I know the fans are desperate to assume they're a big villain or something instead of just a mischevious child whose pranks go too far, so when they're disturbed by what's they're being made to do...
I am both intrigued and heavily disturbed by what directions the full game will go in whenever it finally comes to fruition. It's one thing to just go around murdering everyone and everything, but abusing and manipulating somebody else into doing it...Goddamn...
After a mere NPC appearance back in Chapter 1, Noelle Holiday becomes a playable character for a while in Chapter 2. She is timid, submissive, has a crush on Susie, and has silly combat animations. She starts with a negative Boldness score. It's implied that something happened to or with her MIA big sister December that made her the way she is.
Noelle also has a spell that can freeze enemies solid, which unlike general combat (where enemies escape after being damaged enough) leaves their bodies encased in ice on the world map.
You can order her to freeze every enemy you see. You can backtrack and have her freeze enemies in previous areas. As she turns more and more enemies into ice blocks, she starts to believe this will make her stronger.
That's when you can start emotionally abusing and gaslighting her...and turn her into a serial killer.
You insist that you and her are something more. You repeatedly demand that she get a ring to enhance her powers that you will never be able to afford until she does so; the ring seller is never seen again. Her battle animations go from comic relief to kind of cold. You have her freeze over puzzles. You force her to wear another ring that halves her magic costs but physically harms her. You can take and wear her watch.
And you have her brutally murder her friend by repeatedly ordering her to use a spell she doesn't know until she does so.
Berdly, the smug smart bird who's a wacky recurring boss throughout the chapter, sees that something is wrong with Noelle and correctly deduces that you're the cause of these problems. And you gaslight and abuse her into freezing him solid with a fatal ice spell.
Noelle, obviously broken, slowly walks away and leaves the party after this.
The rest of the chapter is largely trunctuated, with much less ground to cover. It's heavily implied that Noelle has gone off on a killing spree.
At the end, the bonus boss has taken over the final boss position the Queen would've. Near the end of the fight, the boss boosts his defense. You call for Susie and Ralsei to help a couple of times. They don't come. You call for Noelle and she immediately murders the meme puppet for you.
Back in the real world, Noelle assumes everything was just a nightmare. She tries to wake Berdly; he doesn't respond. She assumes he fell asleep and heads off to the hospital. While it's not outright stated he's pretty obviously dead for real.
If you follow her to the hospital, she is freaked out out that you followed her. And she is even moreso if you are wearing her watch. While Susie drops in before things can proceed further, it's obvious that she just realized her traumatic nightmare was very real.
On top of all of this, there are points where Kris is visibly horrified by what the Soul (READ: THE PLAYER) is making them do to this poor girl. I know the fans are desperate to assume they're a big villain or something instead of just a mischevious child whose pranks go too far, so when they're disturbed by what's they're being made to do...
I am both intrigued and heavily disturbed by what directions the full game will go in whenever it finally comes to fruition. It's one thing to just go around murdering everyone and everything, but abusing and manipulating somebody else into doing it...Goddamn...
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Violentvixen
(She/Her)
Yeah, I didn't play that route but watched a playthough and it strongly pushes the difference in the Player versus Kris. All of her lines about the voice not sounding like Kris are interesting.
Yeah, I've thought about doing that route with my 'fight everyone' save from Chapter 1, but I dunno. It feels somehow worse than the Genocide route in Undertale due to how Noelle is treated, and while the battle with sans in Undertale hinted at laying blame at the player over the character it is far more explicit here.
Regardless, Toby Fox is doing more with Deltarune than Chapter 1 led me to believe.
Regardless, Toby Fox is doing more with Deltarune than Chapter 1 led me to believe.
Also, some more details on that path:
Personally, I think that whatever happened to Noelle's sister might be connected with the word 'Snowgrave', which is super ominous in and of itself. Maybe she's dead, and Noelle feels responsible? With how she kills Berdly, maybe December froze to death? It's all conjecture based on what we know so far, but I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened.
Oh and further adding to the 'it's the player forcing Noelle to do these things, not Kris', during the final battle of the 'Snowgrave' route when you gotta call on your friends to finish him off, the game says Kris calls out to Susie and Ralsie but specifically says 'You' whisper Noelle's name.
Oh and further adding to the 'it's the player forcing Noelle to do these things, not Kris', during the final battle of the 'Snowgrave' route when you gotta call on your friends to finish him off, the game says Kris calls out to Susie and Ralsie but specifically says 'You' whisper Noelle's name.
Yeah, I'm surprised and even a little disappointed? I feel like Fox said what needed to be said with that in Undertale, I don't get why it needs a rehash in Deltarune. But I guess I'll have to see the details to find out if that reaction is justified.
Regarding Dess/Noelle (nothing particular to the Weird Route):
Also, there's a detail in the hospital if you happen to do the Weird Route:
It's also worth noting that Chapter 1 technically had two variations to its ending --- one where Kris throws knives at the heart and one where they don't. I suspect whatever the final ending of the game is will essentially be the same regardless of your choices, but the precise timbre of it will vary wildly depending on your choices.
The Queen furnished everybody's rooms in her mansion according to their internet search history. In Noelle's case, she has a calendar where every month is December and every day is Christmas, implying that she searched for “December Holiday” repeatedly. Assuming Dess is indeed short for December, this implies that whatever happened to Dess is less likely to be a death and more likely to be a missing person case (a common theory is Dess got lost in a dark world somewhere).
Also, there's a detail in the hospital if you happen to do the Weird Route:
The sliding bead toy in the hospital lobby --- the one where the game says "the beads march grimly along their set path" in Chapter 1 --- has a bit of extra flavor text. It notes that the blue bead has broken off of the toy. Berdly may be gone, but you still haven't broken yourself away from your fated path.
It's also worth noting that Chapter 1 technically had two variations to its ending --- one where Kris throws knives at the heart and one where they don't. I suspect whatever the final ending of the game is will essentially be the same regardless of your choices, but the precise timbre of it will vary wildly depending on your choices.
Violentvixen
(She/Her)
I did not know that, interesting! And I think the biggest question right now for me is what Kris' behaviour is like without the Player around. Slashing tires and creating dark fountains is extremely weird, but the question to me is if Kris is a hero or villain. I wonder if the final ending will be fighting Kris, or if you choose the more evil path fighting everyone else? Or as noted maybe it doesn't matter and we just ending up fighting Titans no matter what.
Just finished up Chapter 2! A few of my personal thoughts.
HUGE SPOILERS FOR CHAPTERS 1 & 2!
HUGE SPOILERS FOR CHAPTERS 1 & 2!
Gonna separate these by characters.
I don't think that the real Kris is an evil villain like some fans do. But what I do think is that the player's SOUL is not the only outside force that's controlling their body. The kid was terrified of the silly meme puppet who wanted to cut his own strings and grafted his head to a Flash puppet of Mettaton NEO, and I doubt it's just 'cuz Spamton was an extremely brutal boss fight.
My bet's on the enigmatic Knight (whoever or whatever they are) possessing their body in the real world. Said possessions all have happened at night, too.
My bet's on the enigmatic Knight (whoever or whatever they are) possessing their body in the real world. Said possessions all have happened at night, too.
She's gone through a lot of character development over the past two chapters but we still don't know too much about her life outside of the dark world. It'd be nice to learn some more about her besides the residents she's crossed and that she's in no rush to contact her own family.
Still not sure what to make of the kid. He seems genuinely nice, but with the prophecies that only he brings up and now a dedicated hub town for collecting recruited enemies...Could be up to something by playing the long game, could be a red herring and legitimately good.
Chapter 3's looking like Toriel will be dragged along for the ride this time so I'm interested in seeing where things go when she sees someone who looks a lot like her son. Maybe the face-obscuring hat will temporarily come out of retirement?
Chapter 3's looking like Toriel will be dragged along for the ride this time so I'm interested in seeing where things go when she sees someone who looks a lot like her son. Maybe the face-obscuring hat will temporarily come out of retirement?
I doubt we've seen the last of her in the Dark World, and not just 'cuz she has battle sprites and she's gained more confidence on the Good route...or become an obedient traumitized mass murderer at Kris's call on the Asshole route.
She's been friends with Kris for years and can tell something is off about them right now. She wants to get to know Susie better. Her father is in the hospital with an undisclosed illness. Her mother is the mayor who still hasn't even been seen yet and is implied to be far more strict with her. And her sister December...
Something is going to happen, there's a lot more potential story threads with Noelle and the Holiday family in general.
She's been friends with Kris for years and can tell something is off about them right now. She wants to get to know Susie better. Her father is in the hospital with an undisclosed illness. Her mother is the mayor who still hasn't even been seen yet and is implied to be far more strict with her. And her sister December...
Something is going to happen, there's a lot more potential story threads with Noelle and the Holiday family in general.
I think we're mostly done with him, and not just 'cuz he died in one route. He's had his character development, gone from an insufferable self-proclaimed genius to being a little less insufferable upon confessing that Noelle was always the smarter one and he only got where he was with her help.
He won't be a complete non-entity, but I doubt we'll see him in the Dark World again. He had his big arc.
He won't be a complete non-entity, but I doubt we'll see him in the Dark World again. He had his big arc.
They had rooms in Queen's palace (that you can't actually see), but that's probably just a fun li'l joke and I doubt anything will come from it.
I mean, I would be all for Catti getting in on the fun for an ep (She, Kris, and Noelle studied the occult and she taught the latter protection spells (also she doesn't get along with Susie 'cuz she stole Jockington's hat once)), but I'm not counting on it happening.
But that said, if frickin' Berdly can get in on an ep, you never know.
I mean, I would be all for Catti getting in on the fun for an ep (She, Kris, and Noelle studied the occult and she taught the latter protection spells (also she doesn't get along with Susie 'cuz she stole Jockington's hat once)), but I'm not counting on it happening.
But that said, if frickin' Berdly can get in on an ep, you never know.
I think there is enough evidence in the game to suggest that they've been doing this weird soul-ripping thing for a while. The flavor text makes it seem like that cage has seen a lot of use. Also, at the end of Chapter 2 when we take forever in the bathroom, Toriel says "oh yeah Kris sometimes does this", and then promptly makes an excuse to check outside (she didn't need to get sugar from the car given that she already had sugar inside).
As far as Kris's motivation, I don't think they're being strictly evil. I suspect the tire-slashing was a stunt to make sure Susie stayed overnight (because they like Susie, and want backup), and to make Toriel call the cops. The dialogue options with Undyne (in both chapters) imply that Kris wants to let her know about the dark worlds --- so creating a crime scene and leaving the front door open seems like a (rather desperate) way of making her find out.
This theory still seems a bit weird kinda weird to me (why switch the TV on and tune it to static?), but I think this is roughly equivalent to the level of misdirection as the Chapter 1 stinger (Kris didn't kill anyone, they just wanted pie (and maybe open the library fountain)). My general conclusion is that Kris is very weird, has some awareness or agenda that's unclear to us, is somewhat traumatized by family issues, but not actually evil.
As far as Kris's motivation, I don't think they're being strictly evil. I suspect the tire-slashing was a stunt to make sure Susie stayed overnight (because they like Susie, and want backup), and to make Toriel call the cops. The dialogue options with Undyne (in both chapters) imply that Kris wants to let her know about the dark worlds --- so creating a crime scene and leaving the front door open seems like a (rather desperate) way of making her find out.
This theory still seems a bit weird kinda weird to me (why switch the TV on and tune it to static?), but I think this is roughly equivalent to the level of misdirection as the Chapter 1 stinger (Kris didn't kill anyone, they just wanted pie (and maybe open the library fountain)). My general conclusion is that Kris is very weird, has some awareness or agenda that's unclear to us, is somewhat traumatized by family issues, but not actually evil.
I'm not sure what to make of the Roaring/Titans/etc. In the cutscene one of the big scary Titans looked like Asgore, which is interesting because the cyber Queen seems to be a reflection of Noelle's domineering mother, and (I suspect) the spade King was a reflection of Susie's dad. Because of those parallels, part of me thinks that the Titans will be the metaphysical/thematic equivalent of mean parents telling you to put your toys (darkners) away. Whatever the case is, the Roaring (and a showdown against the Titans) seems inevitable to me --- the kids know how to create dark fountains, and some of them even have obvious motives for wanting to do so (eg Noelle wanting to heal her dad), so by this point things will naturally get out of hand even without Kris's help.
I also had some thoughts about the disruption of the balance between light and dark representing some sort of context collapse (dark world objects are given form in reference to light world objects, but what happens when there aren't any more things for them to refer to?), but the thoughts aren't exactly coherent right now (feels like I'm overthinking things).
I also had some thoughts about the disruption of the balance between light and dark representing some sort of context collapse (dark world objects are given form in reference to light world objects, but what happens when there aren't any more things for them to refer to?), but the thoughts aren't exactly coherent right now (feels like I'm overthinking things).
Anyhow, if nothing else, I'm looking forward to the next chapter just to see how Ralsei and Toriel interact, and to see what unnerving off-brand abomination Deltarune's not-Yoshi will look like.
Violentvixen
(She/Her)
I was about to say "oh yeah there's no way they're showing Titans and not having us fight them" but this is all about subverting expectations so we'll see. That brief scene added a lot to the game world and opened up a lot of possibilities and questions in my head, I thought it was very cool. And another concerning thing about Ralsei is that he is the only one who knows this, maybe he even is one...
I look forward to when Ch3 comes out and I have forgotten everything and am totally confused.
I look forward to when Ch3 comes out and I have forgotten everything and am totally confused.
The Titans are vacuum cleaners! All our dogs will go see?! I told you so.
I notice something after Chapter 2's alternate final boss, which may not be significant but seemed interesting to me. Toby Fox has previously mentioned that Undertale's FIGHT/MERCY dynamic was partly inspired by Shin Megami Tensei's demon negotiation system. Another feature of several Megaten games it that they have multiple human party members, of whom the allies can use magic but the protagonist can only fight and summon/negotiate. Which is pretty much where we are with Deltarune, where Kris is the only party member who can't use magic. (Granted that could just be because Kris is the only human, but still: Susie = Chaos Hero, Noelle = Law Hero, Ralsei = Heroine, you know it to be true.)