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I'm playing through the classic Mana games! Let's all go plant trees!(Now playing Trials of Mana!)

@Lokii @FelixSH I couldn't respond properly yesterday, as it was quite late for me, but thank you for weighing in. What you two said certainly seems to match up with what I've seen people say about Sword of Mana, that it tries to insert too many mechanics into what's essentially still a Gameboy action game at its heart, so they don't really get a chance to shine. I suspect that, combined with @gogglebob's observation about how it adds a lot of plot that doesn't go anywhere, explains a lot about how it's perceived in the public sphere.

That being said, I don't know a lot about Legend of Mana, but it getting some leeway due to being an original game makes some sense, and as Lokii said, it's certainly not an uncomplicatedly well received or particularly popular game; heck, I didn't hear of it until stumbling on the name in some "best Mana game" discussions.
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
I don't know a lot about Legend of Mana, but it getting some leeway due to being an original game makes some sense,
I know it's not going to be a part of this series, but I really do recommend checking it out. There's a Switch remaster that I recommend. Just definitely expect to be playing something completely different in just about every way.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
Yeah, again, Legend is a very special game, in a good way. It's messy, weird and open. Definitely worth checking out, even if you shouldn't expect a game like the other three.
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
I already have chastised Sword of Mana enough, but to elaborate on what makes Legend of Mana special...

Final Fantasy Adventure is a pretty basic zelda game, and all that that entails with plot progression and possibly "missing" stuff.

Secret of Mana, as you have already been informed, has a variable opening couple of "chapters". Right up until you hit the Witch's Castle, there are a few seemingly random variables that determine things like when you get your party members and the exact circumstances of those encounters. These events are exclusive, and, say, if you find Primm the Girl and join her in Pandora, you absolutely will not ever find her fighting werewolves later. In this way, it creates a sort of "every playthrough is different" for people looking to replay the game.

However, any of those "variable" events stop by about the time you encounter Spikey Tiger, and the only "variables" from that point on would be, like, enemy drops or normal videogame variation.

Trials of Mana (the next Mana game) has six playable characters. There are thus six different introductory chapters, and you can only see one per playthrough. Additionally, from there, there are some scattered events that will be different between playthroughs depending on which three characters you have chosen for your party. And, while the majority of the "in-between" of Trials of Mana is the same, there are three different endings split among your six possible initial choices of characters. This means three different final dungeons, and three separate final bosses. Even in the remake that tries to alleviate the fomo in other ways, you will never see the other two final dungeons and bosses without playing through the game an entirely new second and third time.

In this way, with the different character choices at the start, it is very likely "every playthrough will be different"... but you have a maximum of six starting points. So six playthroughs will be different. Different combinations of characters have little differences, but nothing significant.

Not to get to into the weeds on exactly how it works, but Legend of Mana is a game where you "choose your adventure" on something that is akin to a modern level-up skill tree. From practically the first area, you can choose left or right in the fork, and there are a bunch of little forks from there. I'm sure someone has done the actual math on this, but it seems literally impossible to have the exact same playthrough path as someone else without dedicatedly trying. Like Trials, it is a game that ends with one of three exclusive "finales", but unlike the previous game, if you are "careless" or attempt to try everything, you will lock yourself out of any significant ending. And then your only option is to try the game again from the start...

So Legend of Mana really takes the concept of a "variable" adventure that was introduced as early as Secret of Mana and runs with it... but to mixed results. Or, at least, "mixed results" because, even if it is all in my head, I cannot casually play Legend of Mana without a fear I am doing something wrong. Sorry! I have trauma from 1999 I cannot let go! Fetch me my Prima Strategy Guide! But more to the point, it is a deeply experimental game from this perspective, and I can think of extremely few games that go the risk of making its variability so strong that you can straight up just "fail" an entire save file. Of course, that "failure" is another way of saying you should have just cared about the journey, not the destination...

And then Sword of Mana had to follow that dog act.
 
The party travelled through the fiery sands, and eventually reached the Fire Palace.

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There, they ran into an orb so hot, it couldn't be frozen!

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They also ran into this rather nasty room. I thought it was a puzzle to get a frozen snowman on the button, much like in FFA. However, I soon discovered that there was no way to reliably get the bandit rats onto the button, only my whip could reach that far, and while they were on the button, the whip straight up refused to connect! After burning about half my stock of sweets, I decided to get out of there!

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The team then headed off to an icy island, where they first landed into a village full of strange walrus men. They talk about strange happenings in their surrounding forests, and one of them complains about the weather being uncomfortably warm lately. Hmm, that's a definite sign of either the fire spirit or the fire seed being here.

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The forest outside serves up the prettiest scenes of the game so far. The trees are made of dazzling icicles that constantly shift between the colors of the rainbow, really making the whole place feel like something out of an idyllic fairytale. The enemies, however, continued to be complete pushovers, and the team charged ahead without much notable happening.

They picked up a spear upgrade, which I was hesitant to backtrack for, as the current spear was doing considerable damage already and I would miss the ballooning on hit, but in the end I decided to bite the bullet and upgrade it anyway.

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And good thing I did, because they soon ran into the next boss, a reskin of the plant monster that had plagued the dwarven village! And, for once, Kard's spells were not effective! That's not to say the boss was any threat though; it merely required more liberal application of buffs, careful positioning and some sweets and healing spells.

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Past the plant monster, they entered a strangely warm land inhabited by humans. This guy, who looks suspiciously like one of the two bit thieves they'd beat up earlier, asks them to watch the stove and beat it up if it cools down. Huh, that's not how stoves work...

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Oh. It was their hiding spot for Salamander all along! Or Salamando, as this game calls it. It's more than happy to be rescued, and willingly gives its powers to the team.

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Predictably, taking Salamando freezes the area, and makes the thief gang upset. They mutter some choice words, and the team tries to pry them for the location of the fire seed, but of course, they aren't exactly eager to help out.

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They push ahead and finally run into Neko again! Where had he been all this time? His presence is welcome, as he finally allows them to save their progress in this land.

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Their next notable location is, unsurprisingly, the Ice Palace. The enemies finally ramp up their damage enough to become a legitimate threat, and the team is actually forced to break out quite a few spells against them. They also run into some button puzzles, which I first assumed to be freezing puzzles, but alas, that was not the case, I merely had to try them until I hit the right button.

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The upper floor is a library filled with hostile books that can put up a barrier to make themselves immune to regular attack! This is further exacerbated by them having HP draining spells, leaving the team helpless to deal damage against them while they suck up their HP! Thankfully, the buff doesn't last too long, and eventually enough attacks get through to kill them off, but wow are those books nasty!

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The boss of this tower is three tadpoles! Remember them, from all the way back in the watery cave? The prospect of facing three character gulping lizards was terrifying, but thankfully Kard had actual spells, a decent amount of mana for those spells, and could hit their weakness, making this battle a lot smoother than it would've been otherwise.

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But somehow, the tower wasn't over, and I dreaded fighting another boss, as the team's supplies were starting to run really low.

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And then they ran into a frosty oversized gnome.

Fuck.

Thankfully, the frosty gnome wasn't that dangerous, mostly settling for trolly tricks like imbuing the team's weapons with ice or turning them into snowmen. He did end up consuming all of the team's remaining supplies though, and in the end the battle was very close. Phew! Hopefully I wouldn't run into more situations like this again.

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Once bested, the frosty gnome turns into...Santa Claus?! Alright. Lol. He apparently became moody because kids didn't believe in him anymore, and he stole the Fire Palace's seed because he thought it could grow into a Mana tree, which would somehow restore the balance and make kids believe in him?! I don't know, this plot point is beyond absurd. Thankfully, he himself realizes how bad this plan was, and quickly relinquishes the seed.

I immediately restock at Neko's, and cannon back to Kakkara after a quick jaunt through the frozen forests. And this is where today's session ends! It's good to see the game grow teeth again, even if it's a bit too mean at times. Let's hope the future holds more wonderful and exciting adventures!
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
it seems literally impossible to have the exact same playthrough path as someone else without dedicatedly trying.
I think it would be impossible since you'd also have to intentionally match the map placements as a few things are linked to the amount of elements in an area.

Like Trials, it is a game that ends with one of three exclusive "finales", but unlike the previous game, if you are "careless" or attempt to try everything, you will lock yourself out of any significant ending.
Not quite following here, you can definitely beat the Dragons, Jumi and the Demons arcs in the same file? And I wasn't aware of a way to lock yourself out of any of those, can you explain? And technically everything converges to beat the Mana Goddess which is the true (although boring) boss. The arcs are the main thing for sure.

Past the plant monster, they entered a strangely warm land inhabited by humans. This guy, who looks suspiciously like one of the two bit thieves they'd beat up earlier, asks them to watch the stove and beat it up if it cools down. Huh, that's not how stoves work...

ktAbbQj.png


Oh. It was their hiding spot for Salamander all along! Or Salamando, as this game calls it. It's more than happy to be rescued, and willingly gives its powers to the team.
This was another point where I got stuck as a kid. I walked up to the stove and was either slightly misaligned or didn't fully press the button, because nothing happened. So I left and backtracked and finally bought a guide with my allowance. I hit maximum level in everything while doing all that backtracking though so that was quite nice.

The prospect of facing three character gulping lizards was terrifying, but thankfully Kard had actual spells, a decent amount of mana for those spells, and could hit their weakness,
I like this fight because you do have that "oh shit" moment then suddenly realize how much more powerful you are now. It's satisfying.
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
Not quite following here, you can definitely beat the Dragons, Jumi and the Demons arcs in the same file? And I wasn't aware of a way to lock yourself out of any of those, can you explain?

Sorry, I phrased that weird. There are three distinct "story endings", and they are not 100% exclusive. However, I have never done it, but my understanding is that you can place your bits and baubs in such a manner that you do not ever get to all of those "endings", and definitely not the converged ending. And, again, never did it, but my understanding is that you can do it so poorly that you never get any of the endings, but that involves choosing a terrible plot of land to start in the first place, too.

Again, never tested that you could miss all of those, as my FOMO from the first time I played the game led me to trawling gamefaqs.
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
However, I have never done it, but my understanding is that you can place your bits and baubs in such a manner that you do not ever get to all of those "endings", and definitely not the converged ending.
Hmm. I really don't think this is correct, especially as the converged ending appears once you beat one of any of the arcs. You have to option to charge ahead and just beat the game without finishing the other two but there's absolutely nothing stopping you from ignoring the portal and completing the others. Also even once you beat the boss you can just reload and keep playing anyway.
 

spines

cyber true color
(she/her, or something)
as i recall there's places on the world you can't select as your map for that kind of reason, that they'd have too many or too few water tiles
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
Then I have been afraid of doing it wrong for years for nothing.

But my point about it being create-an-adventure to the max still stands as a great reason to play and/or cherish the game.
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
Then I have been afraid of doing it wrong for years for nothing.

But my point about it being create-an-adventure to the max still stands as a great reason to play and/or cherish the game.
Honestly, that "wait I don't know what this does or what will happen next" feeling is right in the spirit of the game, ha.

Anyway, dang I really want to pick Legend back up now, hmm.

And it's only $12 on Steam right now?!
 
In more ways than one 😉

...spoiler snipped because it screws with quote tags

L-Lewd! 🥵
I like this fight because you do have that "oh shit" moment then suddenly realize how much more powerful you are now. It's satisfying.

Yeah, it's pretty well done actually. Especially when they follow this up with the actual real boss to heighten the tension, lol.
And it's only $12 on Steam right now?!

That's cool, unfortunately I'm not buying it until I'm sure I like the series. :p But feel free to gift it to me on Steam! Lol.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
I don't think playing the first three games will tell you if you will like Legends. It's just way too different.
 
The team worked their way back to the Fire Palace's orb, hoping they now held the tools to fix it.

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They discovered that the ultra hot orb could be disabled by...the spirit of fire. Why? Who knows! Even more amusingly, it requires the highest power spell of the spirit to be cleared.

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And yet even more amusingly, there was an orb later that did get cleared with water magic! Arrgh! Why is there no consistency?!

The enemies here? Mostly chumps, the team had already absorbed two dungeons worth of XP and these folks weren't exactly threatening them before that. Still, the burning inflicted by the red slimes, combined with their incessant breeding, made them quite obnoxious, and I even broke out some ice spells at one point to kill them faster!


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The boss of the place was a minotaur, who was, surprisingly, not weak to fire! He was weak to wind magic instead, and so got fried to a crisp regardless. Then they absorbed energy from the seed, which had magically shown up on the elevated altar ahead of them, and left. Four out of eight down!

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However, restoring the fire palace did nothing to help the town, which was still reeling from drought. Come to think of it, how did the fire palace help them sustain themselves? They're in a desert, making things hotter wouldn't help!

They do helpfully inform me that the cannon now offers a trip to the evil empire, and that a sea hare's tail will cure them of their woes. Alrighty then!

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The empire's capital(?) is, unsurprisingly, the most built up location so far. It's also incredibly sterile, with high walls everywhere and the townsfolk speaking little of interest. A woman reveals herself to be a spy and gives us the code to the sewers leading northward to the rest of the city.

The sewers were a dungeon so lazy and nondescript, they didn't even deserve a screenshot. They literally reused the tileset of the elemental palaces, only more murky. Ugh.

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On the other side, they run into the other members of the resistance, who tell them that Dyluck has turned evil and has been draining energy from people in some ruins nearby! Hmm...sounds a little familiar...

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The shop in this section sells gear upgrades despite the team barely doing a single dungeon since the last shop. The gear is almost all tiger themed, including this sultry and disturbing bikini made of tiger fur. In more nonsensical video game logic, the bikini somehow provides more defense than the tiger fur suits.

The northern section of the city is essentially like the southern section, only bigger. The townsfolk still don't say anything interesting and the design is quite dull. The team takes the northwest exit to the castle, which interestingly has hostile enemies and is also locked off. Then they take the other exit, which leads to the ruins, and meet a familiar face!

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Of course, she's mind controlled, and refuses to listen to reason. She also reveals that she's been with Dyluck, which makes Luna angry and smack her! Then she repents it, they take Phanna to a doctor, and then get ready to assault the ruins!

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They are essentially a retread of the ruins south of Pandora, only filled with extremely weak enemies! Huh, what the hell? They picked up a spear upgrade, which was nice, but certainly didn't help make the dungeon not feel like a cakewalk! The only time the team was threatened was when one of the enemies' chests turned into a mimic and did humongous damage to the team. Thankfully, it didn't stay for very long, nor did they run into it more than once.

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The boss of the ruins was a copy of the sentient wall, and it was, if anything, even more pathetic. It's only saving grace was not being weak to Kard's spells, otherwise, it didn't even warrant looking through the team's item stash. Past it lay Dyluck, on an altar similar to the one Thanatos graced in the older ruins! Hmm. I'm beginning to think this part of the game was rushed...

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Dyluck, after pretending to be overjoyed, kills off Luna! Revi strikes him, and that somehow breaks his curse! He directs them to Thanatos' chambers, where he fails to suck Luna's soul, and then runs, leaving a vampire behind!

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The vampire is weak to an element I don't have. But it doesn't matter, because it is vulnerable to Kard's spells, and takes a lot of damage from the party's weapons too! As such, it barely warranted a screenshot.

Unfortunately, it bought Thanatos enough time to abduct Dyluck...again. Luna gets momentarily upset, and the team swear to hunt him down. Which shall happen next time! I'm not eager to enter the rushed portions of the game, but maybe there will still be some merit to what's left? We shall see.
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
VywxpDf.png


The shop in this section sells gear upgrades despite the team barely doing a single dungeon since the last shop. The gear is almost all tiger themed, including this sultry and disturbing bikini made of tiger fur. In more nonsensical video game logic, the bikini somehow provides more defense than the tiger fur suits.

So the 2018 Secret of Mana Remake included two sets of costume "skins" for the characters. I believe this was preorder DLC (and could not be purchased later), was entirely cosmetic, and did not impact stats in any way. One set was the moogle collection, which gave everyone big, fluffy moogle-themed costumes. The other available set was the Tiger collection, which was basically a (spikey) tiger-themed adult onesie for Boy and Sprite... and the "Tiger Two Piece" for Girl. The costume is maybe three tufts of fabric, and dedicatedly puts her hair up in a high ponytail. Considering Secret of Mana 2018 seemed to use its art style and general vibe to be more childish than the original (it's subjective, but the whole thing feels more "cartoony" than before), this was a really weird choice.

Also, not a "costume", but the Tiger Two Piece/Bikini returns as a bit of armor for one character in the next Mana title, too.

wFLfgOF.png


Dyluck, after pretending to be overjoyed, kills off Luna! Revi strikes him, and that somehow breaks his curse! He directs them to Thanatos' chambers, where he fails to suck Luna's soul, and then runs, leaving a vampire behind!

The 2018 remake (and I assume the original Japanese script) does make it clear that Revi hits Dyluck with the Mana Sword, and the effect of the holy sword dislodges Thanatos control for a little bit. It's fun when this plot remembers you are towing a sacred object through the whole thing.

Unfortunately, it bought Thanatos enough time to abduct Dyluck...again. Luna gets momentarily upset, and the team swear to hunt him down. Which shall happen next time! I'm not eager to enter the rushed portions of the game, but maybe there will still be some merit to what's left? We shall see.

You're entering the "rushed" part of the game, but also the bit where the game opens up the most. Have fun with it! There is technically an order of things to do (which is reinforced by a character that will be dispensing "what next" advice), but since you are playing this for the first time, have fun exploring. If something looks neat, go for it. Try not to overanalyze if you found a cool "hidden" area or if it was something that was always intended to be much more.
 
So the 2018 Secret of Mana Remake included two sets of costume "skins" for the characters. I believe this was preorder DLC (and could not be purchased later), was entirely cosmetic, and did not impact stats in any way. One set was the moogle collection, which gave everyone big, fluffy moogle-themed costumes. The other available set was the Tiger collection, which was basically a (spikey) tiger-themed adult onesie for Boy and Sprite... and the "Tiger Two Piece" for Girl. The costume is maybe three tufts of fabric, and dedicatedly puts her hair up in a high ponytail. Considering Secret of Mana 2018 seemed to use its art style and general vibe to be more childish than the original (it's subjective, but the whole thing feels more "cartoony" than before), this was a really weird choice.

Lol every part of this paragraph sounds weird. WTF, Square Enix?
If something looks neat, go for it. Try not to overanalyze if you found a cool "hidden" area or if it was something that was always intended to be much more.

Haha, sounds like you've run into a lot of Internet theorists who read too much into the cut up/shortened areas of this game and assume their interpretation is canon. But don't worry, I know better from past experience, lol.
 
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I head back to the resistance to ask for help with Thanatos and his constant escapades. They brush the matter off, instead talking about how the evil emperor wants a truce with them. Why? What did they do? The empire was going pretty strong last we saw it, and I'm fairly sure we've done nothing to impede its march.

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Oh. Of course. Then they get dropped into a mantis ant recolor, but well, it looked decidedly unimpressive against three attackers, and was fried in record time.

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The dungeon's guards fared little better, with even the obnoxious slimes going down quickly. Talk about a wobbly power curve!

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Soon they faced the emperor and his gang of colorful losers. The emperor lets Gesthar fight a "honorable" duel. He's a reskin of the imperial bike rider, and Kard fries him in about two thunderbolts. Yep. Next!

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Geshtar threatened to blow up the imperial palace, taking the team out with it. Luckily for them, the mushroom king came in, flying on Flammie. It had matured enough to carry them all on its back! And, with flight finally unlocked, I didn't expect the game to take much longer.

Flammie was a little hard to control, as there was no button to make it land, and the overworld icons didn't make its destinations clear. Eventually, I figured it out, and steered it over to Matango, the mushroom kingdom and also the place the mushroom king had directed me to. He gave some basic instructions for steering it, and then directed me to the south western mountains. Umm, alright then.

The south western mountains had a town that sold better gear and candies. Finally! The darn things had almost disappeared entirely, and with the game's strict consumable stack size, their loss was felt quite a few times! The townsfolk themselves spoke mainly of a mountain sage nearby, with one hinting at the Dark Palace being within the vicinity.

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The local temple held little besides bizarre video recordings from a presumably far more advanced age, and a cryptic warning about the sage only seeing people who could "conquer themselves". Hmm.

The team had an uneventful path up the mountain. At its summit, they were directed to the Dark Palace, which would frankly be better off not being screenshotted - it was a simple, ugly reskin of the regular palace tileset, with lots of pathetic enemies who completely failed to stand up to the trio. If it wasn't obvious that this portion of the game was rushed earlier, it sure as hell was now.

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The dark spirit, Shade, was a bizarre little fight, taking the form of a huge slime that often shifted colors. Its attacks inflicted all sorts of status effects, and hit fairly hard, but they were all single target, and so easy to deal with. Unfortunately, Kard's magic was ineffective here, so the team had to settle for a long drawn bout, but it wasn't particularly threatening. For their efforts, they earned a new spirit and the power of a fifth seed. Shade, for some reason, didn't give Luna any new spells. Guess he's the offensive elemental or something.

Unfortunately this didn't earn them a visit with the sage, because he went out again! This time, he travelled to a Golden Isle northeast of his shrine.

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The Golden Isle was a recolor of the empire's cities. To its credit, the recolor actually worked decently, and it actually felt like a city made of gold. Unsurprisingly, it was also ruled by King Mammon, I mean, Manmon. It held a palace, but the palace was locked, and the key was stolen by a spy in the empire's capital's southern portion. Ugh, don't make me go fetch questing....

Thankfully, it didn't take much time to collect the key. The palace was a quick affair, being a largely pointless dungeon with recolors of the tiger and the minotaur. Yep, the developers were clearly phoning it in at this point. They acquired the light spirit, Lumina, and its seed. Apparently the king was using it to make gold...somehow.

Of course, the sage had travelled yet again, this time to the Moon Palace.

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The Moon Palace was another short affair, with much of it being a starry void. This was kinda cute, but at the same time, my patience was being drained by having to go through so many halfheartedly built dungeons. Thankfully, they had collected their seventh spirit and seed with this temple, so there couldn't be much of this collectathon left.

Oh, and the sage left for Tasnica this time.

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Amazingly, I somehow found a sea hare's tail while furiously crossing the world! It does restore the town's water, and makes everyone happy. The team's reward is...an accessory that can turn them into moogles. Huh? Why would they want to do that, ever?!

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They run into Jema in Tasnica! Man, it's been so long since we last saw him! Of course, he doesn't do anything useful, just tips the team of an imperial spy attempting to assassinate the king. The king almost has them arrested, but Jema catches him. Turns out, he was the spy all along!

Then they have a fight with him, but, well, they have his weakness, and he doesn't have much health. Doesn't take much to deduce the outcome, lol. Jema sends them back to the sage's place, hopefully for the last time, and they stock up on supplies from the Tasnican shop, which is somewhat hidden and has all of the consumables available.

Thankfully, the sage is actually in his shrine, and decides to teach the party "true courage" to face the Mana fortress...after a test. The test involves going through a long, winding dungeon with enemies that don't take any damage...

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...and a battle with their clones! Alright, finally we're getting somewhere. Or not, because the clones were really easy and only killed Kard. Then the sage reveals himself to be his bird disciple, and finally gives them directions to the location that matters - the Mana Fortress itself!

Of course, the emperor had beat them to it already, and sent one of his other general clowns to duel the team. But by now they had even more levels and the power to imbue their weapons with life draining. Newsflash: it didn't go well for him. He did deal a lot of damage though, especially to Revi and Kard, who were still wearing dated equipment, and that caused me to go back and grind the money out for buying up to date armor. Guess that's the game's way of "challenging" me now, huh.

Unsurprisingly, the team failed to stop the evil emperor from raising the fortress. Jema then tasked them with assaulting its basement while he took care of the upper levels.

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The basement was certainly pretty, and finally brought back some sensible combat with properly calibrated enemies. There was also a boss, but meh, it was a recolor of the lame two headed dragon Geshtar had sent back in the Water Palace, and the team had thoroughly trounced it even back then. Besides, I think we've seen enough recolors already. :)

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The rest of the dungeon is traversing these non descript, vaguely "hi tech" floors. The buttons here are part of a very elaborate and intricate puzzle haha, got you.

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Eventually the team reaches some sort of...metro train? Meh, whatever.

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Ahead, they run into the thieves again! They attempt to coerce the team to surrender the Excalibur, then send...get this...a recolor of their robot! Yawwwwwnnnnnn.

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The team finally enters the fortress proper. Which looks exactly like every other temple. Behold its majesty!

It's boring as sin, consisting of lots of overtuned enemies and requiring a circuitous path to light up eight elemental orbs. It also has an overtuned swallowing lizard as a boss, and no shops or saves whatsoever! Good grief!

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They finally catch up to the emperor, only to find him dead! Turns out Thanatos had usurped him at the last possible moment. He leaves his companion to fight them, and flees to take control of the fortress.

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She turned into a giant lamia, which left me concerned, as the team was starting to run low on supplies. Thankfully, she didn't have any serious moves, settling for gimmicks like dispelling the party and turning them into miniatures, and after a long, gruelling battle, they prevailed.

Oh, and as a final fuck you, Thanatos summoned yet another recolor, which wasn't hard, but nearly killed off the team, as they had run out of supplies.

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But, at long last, the fortress was over. I could go restock and save my game! And even better, the sky changed into a cool color, and the music into a cool track!

Phew. This must have been the worst session I've played. And I didn't want to be so negative, but like, holy shit, the game just thoroughly falls apart here.

Anyway, this is where I end. Next time, I complete this game, hopefully!
 

Beowulf

Son of The Answer Man
(He/Him)
Things of note:
  • The Moogle Belt will turn you into moogles, but also turn you back from moogles, infinitely and for free.
  • There's a somewhat-hidden area midway through the underground where a bunch of the rebels and Watts are hanging out. I thought Neko was there, too? Also, I believe you can leave the island and go elsewhere to shop/save between the underground and the grand palace.
  • If I remember correctly, you should swing by Gaia's Navel at some point and talk to the chief.
  • This is a spoiler but you'll really appreciate having done it: Return to the Tree Palace grounds and circle around the back of the palace: Neko is there, and he'll sell you the best armor in the game.
 
  • This is a spoiler but you'll really appreciate having done it: Return to the Tree Palace grounds and circle around the back of the palace: Neko is there, and he'll sell you the best armor in the game.

Which palace is this? I went through my last post, but I don't see anything resembling a tree palace, nor were there any tree themed palaces earlier. The tree spirit itself was picked up from the grand palace before the emperor raised it, do you think I can still go back to that spot?
 

Beowulf

Son of The Answer Man
(He/Him)
Which palace is this? I went through my last post, but I don't see anything resembling a tree palace, nor were there any tree themed palaces earlier. The tree spirit itself was picked up from the grand palace before the emperor raised it, do you think I can still go back to that spot?
Sorry, that wasn't clear. The island where the grand palace was, where you got Dryad and the plant-elemental seed. You can still land on the "palace" area.
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
Yeah I feel like you're blasting past a lot of shops and armor levels in the game and making things harder.

candies. Finally! The darn things had almost disappeared entirely
I don't remember a lack of access to candy being any sort of issue but it has been a while.
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The local temple held little besides bizarre video recordings from a presumably far more advanced age

This is what this conversation earlier in the thread was referencing:
I had misremembered that Wendel was the city you see destroyed in the history crystals at the top of the mountain. It looks like I completely made that up and they don't mention the name of the city. Huh.

You're not hallucinating! They added that for the 2018 remake with a few other random changes. The American version even traded a "history crystal" Jeopardy reference for a "is that your final answer" reference.
 
On @Beowulf's advice, I return to the Mana Fortress.

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To my surprise, Jema is here, and gives the party a quick pep talk, and directions to find the Mana tree itself! I find Neko's shop, but the armor is too expensive to buy even one set! I decided to hold onto one piece of the body armor and helm, in case the upcoming fights prove too much.

I try entering the flying fortress, only to be shooed away! I keep looking around the world map, until I find a conspicuous island with a small clearing surrounded by tall mountains!

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Turns out, it's the dungeon they're supposed to go to! It's filled with exceptionally nasty enemies that punch anyone for three digits of damage, and I was immediately glad to have bought the new set for Revi. Of course, now I needed to grind out the money to get it on everyone. What a pain! Thankfully, Revi was capable of soloing the monsters with the new armor on, so I painstakingly grinded out all of the required money with him. This took him all the way to level 51! Well, at least one of my party memebers would be "on curve", heh.

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The dungeon shows off its creativity by serving up a reskinned snake as its first boss. Thrilling. It had a lot of HP, and not much else. Kard fried it with thunderbolts, and it only ever seriously threatened Luna, when it managed to somehow both moogle and mini her.

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The forest got a mite frostier ahead. It also brought the team to their first dragon!

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The dragon was really hard to hit, and used lots of obnoxious spells, including a bunch of status inflicting breaths, but, once again, Kard's spells came through, and the team was never in any real danger, though it did take a walnut. The rest of the dungeon was quite boring, featuring small, bland rooms and a bevy of recycled bosses. Thankfully, there were save points within, and I could and did backtrack to restock on my items, but it was still not a great experience!

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But hey, they get to the Mana tree in the end! The game acts like they've succeeded...until Thanatos blasts the tree out with a powerful beam of light! Ugh, what a dickhead.

The tree's spirit manifests itself for a few moments, reveals itself to be Revi's mother, and raises the sword's power to the maximum, finally allowing the team to forge the Excalibur! There's a few bits of humor, and the team resolves to beat Thanatos for good!

ZtrFTbC.png


Now they were permitted entry into the fortress! Which looked uniquely imposing and funky. It was certainly a welcome break after so many bland and lazily recycled tilesets, and, in a pleasant surprise, the fortress felt like an actual enjoyable dungeon, with no stupidly overtuned enemies, no halfhearted layouts, just some cool slicin' action in a cool environment.

In fact, it was so good, I was even willing to forgive it having boss recolors. Especially since the team was now starting to be capable of using some really cool tools, like reflecting all magic back to their opponent or blocking physical damage with barriers.

Yzu3T7z.png


At long last the team entered Thanatos' chambers. He revealed that he wanted Dyluck because his body was really strong, strong enough to hold a world conquering warrior. He had grown tired of his body, and decided to forcibly take over Dyluck's. Luna tried to stop him, but, well, didn't succeed. But, it turned out Dyluck's spirit was just as strong as his physique, and he thwarted Dyluck's attempt to take over him. Frustrated, Thanatos ran away.

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But not before turning into a Lich! Who looked exceptionally cool, but was actually surprisingly easy to defeat. Avoid his hand form, reflect his spells back, throw some swings in, the works. Had a bit too much HP, tho.

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The party had to hurry outside immediately after he was defeated; the Mana beast had already begun attacking the flying fortress! Revi has reasonable reservations over killing it, but Kard convinces him to get over it and fight to save the world. And save the world they shall!

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Uhh...once I figured out how to damage it, that is! 😅 I tried fighting it for a while, without any success. I didn't understand why Revi's strikes were doing 0, he had fixed the Excalibur and got his party members to buff it with the mana spell. After a few failed bouts, I figured out why...he hadn't practised enough with his sword, so he simply couldn't charge his swings enough to do damage! Arggh!

Welp, that does it. I was willing to put up with the game till now, but arbitrarily making the final boss undamageable because of player choices? Utter bullshit! I pulled out some action replay codes and gibbed the bastard back into oblivion!

Also, that whole debacle made me think of one thing...the only reason the beast was there was because the flying fortress was provoking it, right? And according to the legend, the hero of the sword took it down with his...sword. So...why didn't they just take the fortress down and call it a day? Why this last minute drama with a fight they clearly didn't need to fight?!

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Arrgghhhhh, whatever, anyway they win but at the cost of Dyluck and Kard. Then the credits roll, Revi and Luna take a stroll through past locales, and the game ends. Also Kard becomes a spirit watching over the world or something.

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Sooo that was Secret of Mana. It could have been a good game, it evokes the vibes of the classic NES Final Fantasy games in a good way, with a lot more whimsy and a much more expressive visual style. And it genuinely has some truly great ideas, as well as some good dungeons in the middle.

But then the second "half" hits, and the halfassedness of everything takes a serious toll on the game. Too many dungeons are either pointless spaces, or overtuned hellholes. Too many enemies are obnoxious blobs of stats who force you to go buy new equipment. Too much of the combat is based on ridiculous inflated number games instead of inventive solutions.

Secret of Mana is not a bad game. Even after all the frustration the game put me through, I still have to acknowledge the neat ideas, the cool vibes, and the intricacies of its systems. It was just too ambitious for its good, without the budget or development time to back it up. Had it been given one or two years more of development time, it could've been a great game. As it is, it's basically a Terranigma. Or perhaps an Icarus?

I am sorry for sounding so negative, it was not my intent to diss the game. I am merely offering what are my genuine thoughts on the game. Perhaps I overlooked something, perhaps it plays better with a mod, or perhaps, most simply, it was not to my taste. Any of these could be true, but for now, I'm just content to put this down.

It was fun to exhibit the game, though, and I enjoyed the chatter and insights everyone brought to this thread, without which the whole endeavour would've certainly been far less exciting. Thanks to you all, thread participants.

Well, that about covers everything I have to say about Secret of Mana. I shall be putting up a poll for my Trials of Mana characters soon-ish. Until then!
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
It's ok, if you didn't like the game, and are critical of it. I prefer fair criticism and personal thoughts, over just hearing how great everyting is. Way more interesting.

Also, when I played the game 20 years ago, I had to give up on the very last boss fight. My English skills were pretty lacking, and I played while watching tv, so I probably barely understood the plot, and likely missed details. Which I would correct with faqs (I used gamefaqs a lot, back in the day). But, probably due to my English skills, I couldn't figure out that you had to cast the spell to make the sword actually do damage. Or maybe I figured that out, and had the same problem as you had. So I gave up.

I don't think it's that, which made me not care much for this game. On the whole, I never had to urge to replay it. I did like Seiden Densetsu 3 way more, though, that one I played through at least two times, and had fun with. Couldn't say how, except that I liked the way that there were six characters with three storyline. To me, it was all that SoM was, just better. Not really true, I guess, but it was my personal experience. The only thing that I remember as a negative is a spoiler, so I'll mention it, when you get there.

After beating it now, which did you prefer, FF Adventure or SoM? Considering that your final post was pretty positive on the former, and more negative on the latter, I assume it's clear. But maybe your personal feelings are still different.
 

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
The rest of the dungeon was quite boring, featuring small, bland rooms and a bevy of recycled bosses.
Awwww. The Pure Land is one of my favorite dungeons in the game...
I tried fighting it for a while, without any success. I didn't understand why Revi's strikes were doing 0, he had fixed the Excalibur and got his party members to buff it with the mana spell. After a few failed bouts, I figured out why...he hadn't practised enough with his sword, so he simply couldn't charge his swings enough to do damage! Arggh!
You fell into the classic Secret of Mana blunder! It is very obnoxious, and thinking back on it now, it's probably a symptom of the development issues it had (rushed QA testing).

Honestly I didn't have that problem when I played as a kid, because I was so obsessive and grindy I would always have max Weapon Levels on everyone at all times :p
 

Beowulf

Son of The Answer Man
(He/Him)
I think the issue you had with the Mana Beast (which I've had, too) is that if you haven't leveled Dryad at least a few levels, the Mana Magic wears off really fast, and then you need to re-cast it to do any real damage. Alternately, you can cast Moon Energy on the boy and charge up the sword (I used the sword very heavily and could reliably charge to level 6+ on every playthrough) and the Mana Magic doesn't actually matter.

In retrospect, yes, it's a bad design for a final boss. The game is not explicit enough with the necessary setup and the damn thing has the most annoying limited hitboxes and inescapable attacks.
 
did like Seiden Densetsu 3 way more, though, that one I played through at least two times, and had fun with. Couldn't say how, except that I liked the way that there were six characters with three storyline. To me, it was all that SoM was, just better.

That is pretty promising, thanks for sharing your personal experience with that game, it makes me more hopeful for the final part of this thread.
After beating it now, which did you prefer, FF Adventure or SoM? Considering that your final post was pretty positive on the former, and more negative on the latter, I assume it's clear. But maybe your personal feelings are still different.

Final Fantasy Adventure, of course! It has some really smart design, and frankly, it's incredible how much of it holds up well today, despite the Gameboy's limitations. One has to wonder why they decided to move in a completely different direction after that game. Maybe they were worried about becoming too much like a bland Zelda clone? Perhaps @gogglebob, our resident Mana historian, can shed some light. :p
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
Buddy, you completed half the game in two days! I can't be expected to respond to all that! I had to go to a kid's arcade-based birthday party! There was a Godzilla game!

At least regarding the "direction" of the Mana games, all interviews seem to indicate that specifically Secret of Mana grew out of potential Final Fantasy 4 ideas, so it was likely they were following the concept of "Final Fantasy Gaiden" more than the precepts of the game that actually was Final Fantasy Gaiden (Final Fantasy Adventure). From here, "the Mana franchise" holds true to continuing themes and traditions (like the SoM-introduced elemental spirits will be fixtures), but I think the (lack of) gameplay connection between Final Fantasy Adventure and Secret of Mana is simply that they were not so much worried about that "concept/continuity" as much as "what can we do on the Super Nintendo CD".
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
The rest of the dungeon was quite boring, featuring small, bland rooms and a bevy of recycled bosses. Thankfully, there were save points within, and I could and did backtrack to restock on my items, but it was still not a great experience!

Awwww. The Pure Land is one of my favorite dungeons in the game...

Same, this is mind-blowing to me to hate The Pure Land. The fog, the canopies, it's one of the most beautiful areas of the game. Also these enemies drop some of (if not the?) the best armor in the game. But I think Duke was kinda done and blasting through the game without really grinding at this point so I get it.

Also another beautiful track.


After a few failed bouts, I figured out why...he hadn't practised enough with his sword, so he simply couldn't charge his swings enough to do damage! Arggh!

Honestly I didn't have that problem when I played as a kid, because I was so obsessive and grindy I would always have max Weapon Levels on everyone at all times :p
Ha, same. They tell you to cast Mana magic right before but it's so easy to skip past and not very clearly stated. I honestly can't remember if this was made clearer in the remake.
 
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