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I had a good feeling! Celebrating 40 Years and 108 JRPGs of Destiny

Another of Square's big bombastic messes, with very high highs and very low lows. I love and dislike many things about CC, and it is hard to imagine it not making an impression on anyone who plays it.

Chrono Trigger looms so large (I expect we are well on our way to seeing it dominate another list on Talking Time right now) that Cross, in the long run, was always going to be in its shadow. Better a weird outlier than a pale imitation.
 
I missed the FFXV discussion. My two cents:

Final Fantasy XV was #8 on my list. I love FFXV.

Is it challenging? No.

Is it enjoyable? Yes. I loved driving with my crew and listening to FFI tracks on the radio as we drove through the countryside. There is no Final Fantasy game where I enjoy going from point A to point B more than FFXV.

I'm sure it has its detractors. But for my money, one of the best and most enjoyable FF games.
 
It also drew from the Lunar school of design and made level grinding very impractical, so that setups and strategy were more important.
 
Chrono Cross is an absolutely brilliant beautiful mess of a game and would be remembered as one of the greatest on PS1 were it not for its connections to CT giving it unattainable expectations.

While we did get anywhere from disappointing to infuriating information on the fates of the CT cast, I am reminded that CC expressly exists in a near-infinite multiverse and that the world(s) of the game are not tEcHnIcAlLy the world of CT.

Plus we got F-15s fighting dinosaurs and probably the second most bonkers story on the PS1 next to Xenogears, so I'd say it deserves the spot.
 
A very mean spirited sequel. The deaths of the previous game's protagonists adds nothing of value to the narrative here, it's just a kick in the teeth to anyone who vibed with Trigger's "We're going to help these people because we have the means to do so" optimism. Helping people? You absolute morons, that'll just make things infinitely worse and upgrade the threat from "our planet is in danger" to "the concept of existence is in danger."

But even setting aside the Trigger-related issues, the biggest issue that Cross faces is that Serge is a silent protagonist. I do not mind silent protagonists as much as some folks do, but Cross's plot really, really, really needed Serge to have, like, thoughts and be able to voice why he's doing the things he's doing and going to the places he's going. The narrative as it exists relies on Kid being the driving force: You break into Viper Manor because Kid wants to, you got to Fort Dragonia because Kid is after Lynx, there are scenes in the second half of the game that suggest she's one of Serge's main motivations for continuing. But the game also lets you tell Kid to fuck off every time you see her, and she will fuck off. But Serge still needs to break into Viper Manor, because ????. When Kid gets poisoned, you can leave her to die (you are even rewarded for doing this with the strongest character in the game), but you're still directed to Fort Dragonia to go after Lynx, even though the last set piece was escaping him. And it gets worse as the game goes on and Serge's past becomes a major plot point, and him being able to say, like, anything about it, would have helped make those points land.

I dunno, there is something interesting about a game's narrative that's so overstuffed while also being so hollow. It's full of all this Lore and references to Trigger, but so much of it feels disconnected from what's actually happening in game, even as the game is explaining how this stuff is directly responsible for what's happening in the game. Some of those late game lore dumps feel like they should have been blurbs in an artbook instead of in-game walls of text to which no character has any response to.

It looks great, both, like, the raw graphical quality and the art direction are incredible. The music's great, just banger after banger after banger on that soundtrack. Both of these put in a ton of work to salvage this game for me despite how much the story pisses me off when I think about it.

I have mixed feelings about the Elements system. On one hand, I love a character customization system, I love being able to swap out abilities or choose what a character specializes in, and in a game with forty-something weirdos to put in your team of three, being able to change things out on the fly so you can use who you want is great. But on the other, I wish the characters had a little bit more in the way of unique abilities to make them stand out more. Maybe more double and triple techs would have helped and given the cast a little more sauce?

But I do like a lot of the character concepts here, they went weird with it and that's wonderful.
 
#17 on my list. Fantastic, if perhaps only in hindsight. Universe knows that unlike the game it is an ostensible sequel to, replaying Cross feels like a chore. In fact, I can never force myself through it when I try again. But that first (and only) playthrough? Magical, messy, strange.

I quite enjoyed the ruined timeline idea re: the fate of CT's cast, but I'm not sure Square stuck the landing. The execution leaves a lot to be desired. It'd be interesting to see what they might have made if they were not so beholden to Radical Dreamers.
 
I have some pretty nasty personal trauma when it comes to Chrono Cross and maintain it really needed several more months in the oven, but damn if it isn't the prettiest game on the PSX with the most eclectic set of playable characters.
 
#17 on my list. Fantastic, if perhaps only in hindsight. Universe knows that unlike the game it is an ostensible sequel to, replaying Cross feels like a chore. In fact, I can never force myself through it when I try again. But that first (and only) playthrough? Magical, messy, strange.

I quite enjoyed the ruined timeline idea re: the fate of CT's cast, but I'm not sure Square stuck the landing. The execution leaves a lot to be desired. It'd be interesting to see what they might have made if they were not so beholden to Radical Dreamers.
I feel like being even more explicit with what happened to characters besides Lucca and Robo would hurt even worse, but would've been better in a way. Everyone else feels a bit like an afterthought, dismissive almost, but I think it's really just a byproduct of an overstuffed lore dump.

And reminding myself again, they're variants of the CT cast and also the whole point of the ending is that none of this ever happened anyway because you saved existence, so everyone is happy and had a million babies together and
 
I think CC would have fared a bit better in most people's eyes if it had been a thematic sequel like Final Fantasy's many iterations. But no, they went and made that connection. And sure it's supposedly one of a myriad of co-existing outcomes, but... they only show you THAT one and no others.
Reminds me of kids imaging a cool scenario and that one child says, "And then everybody dies!"
 
Maybe cool it on complaining about a game that, by your own admission, you haven't even played, especially if you're going to insult the game's writers to the point of comparing their work to that of literal children? I sure would love to hear more from the people who actually voted for these last couple of games.

Anyway, I haven't played CC since it was new, and I didn't vote for it, so I don't have an effort-post in me, but I think it's cool and good and I do feel like I want to shout out a couple of things that manage to come to mind from the dim recesses of my memory.

Beyond just the absolute delight of assembling the world's largest cast of good weirdos, the thing that looms largest to me is just how jarring and cool the big mid-game twist is. Suddenly you're the big baddie and all of your former allies hate you, he's running around in your body being evil, and you're cozying up to the other bad guys and it all feels so cool and alien and wrong. Like, everything feels so impossibly fucked, and how are you ever going to recover from this? I can only recall one other JRPG that made me feel at all similarly, and I expect to see it much higher on this list.

I also really liked the weird elemental battlefield memory, and to my mind the game's biggest innovation is that NG+ gets a literal fast-forward button like you're playing on an emulator, complete with a tape deck interface layered over the UI. I'm not a NG+ guy, but that's the closest I've ever come to being one, since that really does a lot to reduce the pain of doing the same things again. One of the few things I can point to and unambiguously say that this game did better than CT.
 
Maybe cool it on complaining about a game that, by your own admission, you haven't even played, especially if you're going to insult the game's writers to the point of comparing their work to that of literal children? I sure would love to hear more from the people who actually voted for these last couple of games.
Fair point. Apologies.
 
The late game of CC is also severely underrated. The underwater segment and Chronopolis are neat and Terra Tower is so atmospheric. Even the gimmick for the final battle is pretty imaginative.

And there's Starky, a top tier lil' guy.
 
The late game of CC is also severely underrated. The underwater segment and Chronopolis are neat and Terra Tower is so atmospheric. Even the gimmick for the final battle is pretty imaginative.

And there's Starky, a top tier lil' guy.

The Dead Sea section is stunning. Impeccable art direction at every turn.
 
I had CC down at #37 on my list. I considered CC and FF8 similarly (at the time, at least) - Good, but would have been better if I'd been able to approach them without the expectations established by their forebears. I still think CC's continuation of CT's story and ideas was sloppy at best and did the game as a discrete work and its wider reputation no favors. I also found the cast of weirdos, while endearing, to feel a little shallow because you can only use three and many of them didn't feel like there was a reason to try them out, so they just got stuck on the collectibles shelf like dolls. (Including the actual straw doll with the nail in him, who will live forever in my associations with CC).

But I do remember liking the battle system overall, the twisty-turny story at least kept me intrigued, the visuals were gorgeous and oh, that soundtrack. I think I'll listen to it right now, in fact.
 
Oh, I forgot to mention that CC does one of my favorites things, where the save points themselves have a world-building meaning (and consequence) and aren't just there to save the game.
 
Chrono Cross - great game, bad sequel. I choose to take the connections to Chrono Trigger as a "what if?", not necessarily canon, which smooths things over thematically for me.

Oh, and the soundtrack. The soundtrack. It's just incredible. (Except that battle track, dagnabbit, what were they thinking?)
 
Oh, I forgot to mention that CC does one of my favorites things, where the save points themselves have a world-building meaning (and consequence) and aren't just there to save the game.

It's interesting, there was a trend for a bit where jrpgs went out of their way to provide diagetic justifications for save mechanics. But that specific concern for cohesion fell away at some point. Save spots will still sometimes appear as an in-setting object, but just as often they're a generic glowing circle or something nondiagetic. And rarely will the act of saving itself be incorporated into the narrative in the way Chrono Cross, Xenogears, or FFIX (sorta) does it.

Oh, and the soundtrack. The soundtrack. It's just incredible. (Except that battle track, dagnabbit, what were they thinking?)

Chrono Trigger's main battle them is annoying too, so CC's is appropriately lame.
 
I think it's fine, but it does get a bit old like most RPGs that don't change their main battle tracks.
 
Chrono Cross was 32 on my list. I really appreciate it now as a sequel to Trigger that really took some swerves and is all the better for it. We don't get a straightforward adventure iteration on the Trigger formula, instead we get an iteration on all the unexamined timeline implications from Trigger that were mostly played for jokes in terms of gag endings or otherwise.

The game fits cleanly into the "more mature storytelling content" mold that Squaresoft was exploring with Parasite Eve, Xenogears, FF7 and FF8... just a big shift in writing tone across these games compared to their SNES output. Even just in your starting village you get the random NPC wistfully pondering the trajectory of his life, and in the Other World, he's doing the same thing.

Anyway it's also one of the few video game soundtracks that can make me cry, unprompted. Perhaps not coincidentally, so is Chrono Trigger!
 
It's interesting, there was a trend for a bit where jrpgs went out of their way to provide diagetic justifications for save mechanics. But that specific concern for cohesion fell away at some point. Save spots will still sometimes appear as an in-setting object, but just as often they're a generic glowing circle or something nondiagetic. And rarely will the act of saving itself be incorporated into the narrative in the way Chrono Cross, Xenogears, or FFIX (sorta) does it.
Takahashi clearly has a taste for meta stuff so it's no surprise XG and CC had that.
 
I played CC before I played Chrono Trigger. CC holds a much more beloved place in my heart vs CT because the SUMMER OF SQUARESOFT was a friggin' magical time in life and CC was the apex/crescendo. As others have said, the mechanics are wonky and don't hold up on a replay, but the game is oozing interesting intent in how and what you interact with it.

I get being disappointed in CC not being the sequel you wanted. But it's been 26 years. The world has moved on, and we ought to be able to as well, and look back and appreciate CC for the game it is, not still hung up on it not being the game we wanted it to be.
 
I think that's more or less the general consensus, though? That, as a standalone PS1 JRPG, it's fine, it just sucks as a Chrono Trigger "sequel".

And I don't think it's really trying to be one, it's just that Kato felt the pressing need to close the Zeal arc from CT and so made it a weird "sidequel". Which makes sense, he was the guy who penned that part of CT lol.
 
Like you say, it's not really trying to be a real sequel. Otherwise they would have called it Chrono Trigger 2. CT's main story concludes well and pretty decisively in a way that nobody should really want a direct sequel. And CC is only a sequel in so much that it closes the central open plot thread leftover from Trigger.
 
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37: Lunar: The Silver Star Story
Game Arts, 1992: Sega CD Points: 379 Votes: 9 Previous Rank: 28
It’s hard to imagine, but there was a time not too long ago when anime hadn’t slipped into every corner and crevasse of popular culture. Where it was a rare and alluring thing, wild in style and promise. Lunar, in both its western releases, represents a big push to sell the aesthetic. Or rather, to garner sales via aesthetic appeal. Lunar isn’t just another JRPG that happens to have an anime art style. It is anime, through and through, relishing in every hallmark, cliche, touchstone, and peculiarity. Even by 1999, though Japanese animation had made significant inroads into western pop culture, this approach was still fresh, especially when leaned into as thoroughly as Game Arts and Working Designs took it.

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Lunar, on the Sega CD, represented something of a manifesto for the power of multimedia roleplaying. Designed with the intention of making a "different kind of RPG,” the game put the audiovisual experience forefront, with voice acting, Redbook audio, and lavish, fully animated, video cutscenes. Remember, this was 1993, when in the US the closest analogs for a robust JRPG story experience were Secret of Mana and Final Fantasy Mystic Quest. Lunar was on a whole other level. Not just with its fancy animations and talking characters, but with the fact that it put narrative first and focused on strongly defined, dynamic characters. As a response to Final Fantasy IV, it’s a doozy: if RPGs can be centered around story, then why not make one in the style of a whole dang OAV?

Now, being a CD game in the early days of the format meant that there wasn’t a huge audience for Lunar in the west, but also being a CD game in the early days of the format meant that Lunar anticipated many of the experiences and maneuvers console roleplaying would move into a few years later as the technology and genre entered the Playstation era. Lunar very much feels like a forerunner to the fifth generation rather than a true member of its contemporaries’ fraternity. It makes sense then, that Game Arts would see so much success by adding a bit of spit and polish and remaking it just a generation later; to bring the game home, as it were.

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The Silver Star Story Complete is already a robust experience—with a longer story, more dialogue, more animated cutscenes, and even a whole dang boat song included—before having to contend with Working Designs’ excesses on top of it. But in the west Ol Mad Victor was at the height of his powers and the excessive production Working Designs lavished on Lunar’s US release is as much of the game’s identity as any of its contents. From a Making Of CD to a freewheeling translation to a self-satisfied self-reverence, Working Design’s publication of the game has all the flavor and tone of Newtype and Web 1.0 fansites: a frothy obsession tinged with a counterculture swag that often relished in the mildly transgressive. And so Lunar: The Silver Star Story is doubly potent: both excessively anime in content and in a sort of fanish regard for itself. It embodies two sides of the coin that was anime’s emergence in the west: both the medium itself, and the culture that formed around it.

Thus in turn, Lunar makes for a significant game in this era of JRPG history. As the genre grew more popular, and more games with more of a foreign quality were released in the west, a certain adoption of anime’s particular styles and modes of expression came hand-in-hand with the adoption of JRPGs’ particular styles and modes. Lunar, with all its excessive anime-ness, made for a showy, appealing, and, most of all, enthusiastic flagbearer. In a sense, a more pure and representational JRPG would be difficult to find. For a huge slice of what the JRPG pie would become, Luna is there, leading the way, belting out her love for a boat.
 
Ahhhh man I have got to sit down and play these games already. Them and Lufia.
I literally just rolled credits in Eternal Blue a couple of nights ago! Had a great time with it, still need to do the epilogue, though. I hadn't planned on actually playing all the way through it, but... I might have dropped the cash needed to get both Silver Star and Eternal Blue legit on Sega CD recently...

As far as Silver Star goes, it's bonkers how many times the game has seen ports/remakes. By my count, you've got the OG, PSX/Saturn, GBA, PSP, and then the modern port that uses the PSX/Saturn version. Whereas I prefer EB on Sega CD, I think Silver Star is probably better on PSX, although the PSP remake is also very good. Lokii makes a great point that these games were ahead of their time, starting the transition into the fifth generation (as did a lot of PC Engine CD games we never got).

Regarding WD's localizations, I'll be honest... I really like 'em. Are they completely accurate? Not in the least. (Although it's not like it completely loses the plot or anything.) Are they fun? You betcha. (See also Popful Mail.)
 
I learned about Lunar from magazines back in the day but I knew a whopping two people with Sega CD units, and I was not one of them. And neither of those guys knew what the hell an RPG was. (The RPG switch would be flipped with Xenogears for one guy; I lost track of the other dude early in H.S.)

I ended up buying Lunar:SSSC when it came out and loved it. My Punching Ghalleon doll is within reach even as I type this. No other game that I've played does that kind of blue-sky optimism quite like Lunar does it. I've played through it twice, once on the PSX and once on the GBA, and both have their charms. (The aforementioned Xenogears guy is the person that bought me the GBA version for my birthday one year.)

Naturally, I snagged a physical copy of the Lunar Remastered Collection last year. I haven't put a great deal of time into it, busy with other things, but I'm just kinda glad it exists.

Lunar is good times. Play it if you haven't.
 
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