Kingdom Hearts is a good one.
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I had a good feeling! Celebrating 40 Years and 108 JRPGs of Destiny
- Thread starter Lokii
- Start date
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
The series itself might be a bit uneven, but I enjoyed the heck out of KH1/2 and BBS. I remember how, um, goofy the whole idea was back in the day, but somehow, against all odds, it worked, and worked better than many give it credit for.
Correct. The story is just... there. Just enjoy the ridiculousness (and sometimes ridiculous awesomeness) that is Disney x Square Enix.
Correct. The story is just... there. Just enjoy the ridiculousness (and sometimes ridiculous awesomeness) that is Disney x Square Enix.
I remember KH1 being pretty straight forward and simple. It isn't until the sequels that things get obtuse, and even then you can still take the emotional core of the story seriously.
yeah kh1 is, you could say
s-
simple-
simple and-
s-
simple-
simple and-
I leaned my list away from action RPGs so I didn't end up voting for this one, but KH as a whole is so impactful and I did enjoy my time with the early entries so I did vote for *a* KH, which may still show up. But the first does definitely have its charms and avoid the over-complications that swarm over the later series. I did chafe a bit against the obviously-made-of-boxes level design, but even there you can kind of justify the limitation by saying everything is meant to evoke a Disneyland ride version of the world you're in.
oh yeah this was #9 on my list
it's real good
it's real good
I totally forgot about Kingdom Hearts! (It probably would have gone on my list somewhere)
I only ever played the first game; but I had a good time with it. I remember the jumping to be pretty floaty, and when you are going for collectibles, I found it a little frustrating. On balance though, its a real fun game.
The first game also has Winnie the Pooh and Chip and Dale. I don't see the other KH games topping that. I love a lot of 2D Disney, but Winnie the Pooh is my favorite!
(Aside, I want a chill 100 Acre wood game where you just hang out with Pooh Characters, have fun adventures and decorate your home!)
**
The KH collection is being re-released for Switch and PS5. I'm tempted but there are so many good games on the horizon right now that I don't see myself revisiting it any time soon.
I only ever played the first game; but I had a good time with it. I remember the jumping to be pretty floaty, and when you are going for collectibles, I found it a little frustrating. On balance though, its a real fun game.
The first game also has Winnie the Pooh and Chip and Dale. I don't see the other KH games topping that. I love a lot of 2D Disney, but Winnie the Pooh is my favorite!
(Aside, I want a chill 100 Acre wood game where you just hang out with Pooh Characters, have fun adventures and decorate your home!)
**
The KH collection is being re-released for Switch and PS5. I'm tempted but there are so many good games on the horizon right now that I don't see myself revisiting it any time soon.
I kind of appreciate how there isn’t any baddies to fight in the Hundred Acre Woods, either.
Even the Heartless won’t fuck with Pooh.
Even the Heartless won’t fuck with Pooh.
Kingdom Hearts 1 is my absolute fave in terms of world and story. It wasn’t too convoluted yet, and while FF games didn’t get their own world, they populated the shared world enough to feel a part of the story. Later on it felt like FF cameos became an afterthought to the Disney JRPG, but I always liked the idea of FF+Disney more.
FelixSH
(He/Him)
Hmm, I always wished for more FF content in the first KH. The characters aren't themselves in any way but looks and one weirdo changed his name, I guess? The FF content is pretty small, in the end, I guess.
I still wished for a KH game, where we visit parts of the worlds of the main games, with Donald and Goofy, of course.
I still wished for a KH game, where we visit parts of the worlds of the main games, with Donald and Goofy, of course.
56. Dragon Quest 2
Chunsoft, 1987: NES Points: 276 Votes: 8
The primary thrust of the Dragon Quest I project was to take the computer RPG and streamline it for consoles, which proved to be a massive hit and fruitful ground for further experimentation. But while the game was appropriate for the Famicom’s limited range of control inputs and clear enough to engage with a wide audience, it was far simpler and shallower than the mechanical experiences offered on home PCs. With Dragon Quest II Yuji Horii wanted to restore some of that complexity and depth. Considering that Dragon Quest II was developed in a severe eight months, it's astounding what a conceptual and mechanical leap it is from the original, even if that time crunch meant that the expression of those leaps is notably unrefined and unbalanced.
Dragon Quest II’s innovations—from multi-character battles to world and dungeon design, pacing and progression, even scope and position as a sequel—are far too numerous to detail thoroughly. Let it be sufficient to say that the form that Horii and Chunsoft molded would become one adopted and iterated on by nearly all JRPGs moving forward. If Dragon Quest I is the genre’s nucleotides, II is its DNA.
One particularly noteworthy feature is the game’s enactment of story. Dragon Quest 1 was still more premise than narrative, though it did dramatize a few key moments such as the rescue and return of Princess Gwaelin to Tantegel Castle or the rejection by the hero of the Dragon Lord’s villainous offer. Dragon Quest II can’t be said to really offer more or a deeper story, but it incorporates its story into the play-experience in a novel way, and again, one that would become fundamental to JRPGs as a whole.
Horii was cognizant of the fact that Dragon Quest II would be the first RPG for many players, and so, just as Dragon Quest I was designed not to alienate or confuse neophytes, Dragon Quest II, even though it would be far more complex and mechanically sophisticated than its predecessor, would also need to share its inviting qualities. So it was decided that Dragon Quest II would start with a solo protagonist who would battle on their own until the other party members were found and the multi-character battle system would come into its full expression. This fact shouldn’t be dismissed, as the search for the other party members turns the story from one of premise to one of dramatic enactment. The player enacts the same actions as the fictional character, with the same motivations. And while the player enacted the search for Gwaelin with the same motivations as DQ I’s character, that action did not significantly change the flow of the game or the shape of its story. By contrast, finding the other party members in DQ II not only rewards the player mechanically with new options, choices, strategies, and complexity but also changes the direction of the plot. Beforehand, the story of DQ II is about finding your friends, afterwards it is about that group of friends discovering the means to defeat the game’s antagonist. There is a narrative beat here, a reorientation of the direction of the story, and one that is achieved through the mechanics and structure of the medium; not via the elements of other story media like text or film, but on its own terms and with medium-specific rewards not offered by those older story forms.
By medium-specific rewards I don’t just mean things like increased inventory space, strategic options in battle, or even the addition of a new cute little sprite following the main character. I mean there’s an emotional response felt that incorporates these mechanical expansions, and the satisfying movement of a narrative beat, and something further: a kind of emotional catharsis that occurs when the player’s felt experience lines up with the fictional character’s imagined experience and the boundaries between real and fiction dissolve in a fashion that might be labeled empathic alignment.
This can be clearly demonstrated in the moment when the player finds the first party member and the overworld music changes. Overworld music is one of the most primary contributors to a game’s identity and often serves as something of a “main theme” or sets the “main emotional tone” for the game’s expressive experience. Dragon Quest II begins with overworld music that is haunting and wistful, its melody speaking of a yearning and its harmonies of melancholy. It’s not unheroic or dour in a way that Final Fantasy II’s overworld theme is. Rather, it paints a noble quest, but one defined by loneliness. But after the first party companion is found, the player is surprised when stepping on the overworld and instead of the expected music they’re met with a triumphant, joyous theme. Dragon Quest II is from a time when replacing the overworld music was virtually unheard of, and it's stunning that not only does DQ II enact this maneuver in the first place, but that it uses it to indicate an emotional change. The tone of the quest transforms from one of lonely searching to one of joyous gratitude and potential. Likewise, the player feels the mechanical expansion represented by the addition of the new character, and the fictional main character’s imagined loneliness is relieved by finding a friend, and the plot moves from one phase to another allowing for a sense that the story has advanced. All these happen at the same moment. The player feels an emotional response and empathetic alignment that is both poignant and is evoked via avenues unique to the JRPG medium.
This is just one example. There are many more ways Dragon Quest II manifests its story and constructs its experience. Some are more prominent than others, not all of them are new or innovative, but all of them contribute together to a style of “storytelling” that would be adopted, reenacted, revised, and responded to by practically every JRPG that followed.
My appreciation for this one grew recently and that's why I ranked it pretty high.
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
I did not include it in my top 50, but I have so many memories wrapped up in Dragon Warrior II. Back in the day, it was the last of the NES games I had yet to find. I looked for years. Well, we were on a shopping trip and I'd found absolutely nothing. My brother wanted to stop at a salvage store, but I was bummed out enough to not care anymore. But the parents relented and we did stop. Check the case out, and what do I see?
A copy of Dragon Warrior II.
I asked if I could take a look at it, and he pulled it out and unceremoniously clattered it on the top of the case. Inwardly I was cringing. But thankfully the battery didn't dislodge (I had that with a copy of Maniac Mansion one time!), and I went home beaming because I had my white whale. I think it set me back $10.
What I find interesting about the game, though, is that you can see the formative steps from the original already being put into place. Since I got to it well after having played through the other games, it felt like a step back, but not much of a step back, outside of the balancing issues. And given the series' influences from Ultima, it wasn't completely shocking to find that the game adopted some of the rune-hunting structure from Ultima IV. That's something I probably should have put together at the time - I had the Nintendo Power mag coverage of that game, after all. But it was much clearer after I beat the NES port of U4 just this year.
Anyway, don't listen to folks that crap on the game. Even the NES version, while rough around the edges, is a strong RPG entry on the system. Strangely, I didn't care for the SFC port, however. I'm very, very intrigued to dive into the HD-2D version, though, because all arrows point toward "awesome" for that one.
A copy of Dragon Warrior II.
I asked if I could take a look at it, and he pulled it out and unceremoniously clattered it on the top of the case. Inwardly I was cringing. But thankfully the battery didn't dislodge (I had that with a copy of Maniac Mansion one time!), and I went home beaming because I had my white whale. I think it set me back $10.
What I find interesting about the game, though, is that you can see the formative steps from the original already being put into place. Since I got to it well after having played through the other games, it felt like a step back, but not much of a step back, outside of the balancing issues. And given the series' influences from Ultima, it wasn't completely shocking to find that the game adopted some of the rune-hunting structure from Ultima IV. That's something I probably should have put together at the time - I had the Nintendo Power mag coverage of that game, after all. But it was much clearer after I beat the NES port of U4 just this year.
Anyway, don't listen to folks that crap on the game. Even the NES version, while rough around the edges, is a strong RPG entry on the system. Strangely, I didn't care for the SFC port, however. I'm very, very intrigued to dive into the HD-2D version, though, because all arrows point toward "awesome" for that one.
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Dragon Quest II is where Dragon Quest became Dragon Quest. By extension, that also makes it the inception of all the other games that are Dragon Quest. So I'm going to take this opportunity to talk about the whole series.
Approachability is the watchword for Dragon Quest; making an approachable RPG is what Yuji Horii had in mind when he undertook the project, and it's the one thing that they've made sure to continuously increase over time, which is most evident in the numerous remakes. Dragon Quest II isn't just Ultima for people who don't have a PC; it's Ultima for people who don't want to read the lorebook. Sure, the games had manuals - good ones! - but Dragon Quest was often at the forefront of design innovations that would, in barely a decade, render manuals vestigial, even for RPGs.
Foremost among these innovations is that the game software itself would teach you how to play it by playing it. This was part of the design ethos of the action games that dominated on consoles and especially on the Famicom, and it was not part of the design ethos of antique PC RPGs, where players valued extreme complexity, high detail, exquisitely challenging Roe R. Adams III-ass puzzle design, and the immersion that is encouraged by the attempt to navigate the simulation to find the possibility of success. In action games, on the other hand, it would be considered a bug if the game could become unwinnable for reasons other than actually losing, and poor design if the objective were too obscure. The synthesis of these two traditions didn't only happen in Dragon Quest - it didn't happen only on the Famicom or even only in Japan - but it is the iconic element that marked the emergence of this subgenre we call JRPGs.
Dragon Quest's sense of fair play is a major part of what led it to success, and even Dragon Quest II, the most abstruse game in the series, upholds it. Every trick in the game is telegraphed, every solution has its hint, every destination can be reached by following up on some tantalizing rumor, and every action you can take is listed right there in the menu. Playing serious RPGs older than Dragon Quest II is hard for me because of how often they lack these amenities.
Approachability is the watchword for Dragon Quest; making an approachable RPG is what Yuji Horii had in mind when he undertook the project, and it's the one thing that they've made sure to continuously increase over time, which is most evident in the numerous remakes. Dragon Quest II isn't just Ultima for people who don't have a PC; it's Ultima for people who don't want to read the lorebook. Sure, the games had manuals - good ones! - but Dragon Quest was often at the forefront of design innovations that would, in barely a decade, render manuals vestigial, even for RPGs.
Foremost among these innovations is that the game software itself would teach you how to play it by playing it. This was part of the design ethos of the action games that dominated on consoles and especially on the Famicom, and it was not part of the design ethos of antique PC RPGs, where players valued extreme complexity, high detail, exquisitely challenging Roe R. Adams III-ass puzzle design, and the immersion that is encouraged by the attempt to navigate the simulation to find the possibility of success. In action games, on the other hand, it would be considered a bug if the game could become unwinnable for reasons other than actually losing, and poor design if the objective were too obscure. The synthesis of these two traditions didn't only happen in Dragon Quest - it didn't happen only on the Famicom or even only in Japan - but it is the iconic element that marked the emergence of this subgenre we call JRPGs.
Dragon Quest's sense of fair play is a major part of what led it to success, and even Dragon Quest II, the most abstruse game in the series, upholds it. Every trick in the game is telegraphed, every solution has its hint, every destination can be reached by following up on some tantalizing rumor, and every action you can take is listed right there in the menu. Playing serious RPGs older than Dragon Quest II is hard for me because of how often they lack these amenities.
I had Dragon Quest (Warrior) 2 at #18 on my list. (Oddly enough that was the same position I gave it in the previous contest.) I played it when it was first released on the NES so it has a lot of nostalgic appeal. But so far I've never really felt the need to revisit it.
One other thing that hasn't been mentioned about DQ 2 is that it seems to have been when Enix started injecting a bit more whimsy into the proceedings. And that trend continued with later DQ games.
That's pretty crazy. More and more the early years of console development seem to have been like a wild west frontier. I wonder if it was built from scratch or if the first game was used as a foundation.
I think people said the same about Final Fantasy 2. And I think DQ 2 also introduced a few iconic enemies, gear and spells to the series.
One other thing that hasn't been mentioned about DQ 2 is that it seems to have been when Enix started injecting a bit more whimsy into the proceedings. And that trend continued with later DQ games.
the gbc version is my favorite dragon quest that i've played to date (and #21 on my list, just barely beating out makai toushi saga/final fantasy legend in the sorter). at least on that version it's breezy enough that the game's eccentric adventure design really sings, by which i mean: i think dragon quest 2 is incredibly funny. there's jokes which the player may experience with massively delayed punchlines, hints that seem frivolous, and simple gags which lean heavily on the understood structure of the game (like the woman standing near an old man in the dam town who complains that her dad just says one thing all the time. naturally, she doesn't have anything else to talk about). the fortune teller may give you a hint about where to look for something, but doesn't give much of an idea of what you might actually find if you listen to her. you just get to wonder. the reunion with another descendant of a dq1 character is also a highlight.
but the cleverest thing in the whole game is that dog who'll follow you around as if she was in your party if you talk to her. i was also absolutely stunned by the intro to the last dungeon...i know it's a little different on the original versions but i was truly shocked to see that kind of narrative device pulled out in such a formative game. and i think the scope of the world such that it really feels worth getting lost in...it's not so small you find the pieces you're looking for right away, but it's not like it's unmanageably huge either. the odd party dynamic is really great too, although it admittedly makes the game a bit less enticing to think about replaying. but even if it's a bit rudimentary as "an rpg" i don't really have a problem with that, and i truly think it's an exceptional adventure game, much like resident evil 1.
but the cleverest thing in the whole game is that dog who'll follow you around as if she was in your party if you talk to her. i was also absolutely stunned by the intro to the last dungeon...i know it's a little different on the original versions but i was truly shocked to see that kind of narrative device pulled out in such a formative game. and i think the scope of the world such that it really feels worth getting lost in...it's not so small you find the pieces you're looking for right away, but it's not like it's unmanageably huge either. the odd party dynamic is really great too, although it admittedly makes the game a bit less enticing to think about replaying. but even if it's a bit rudimentary as "an rpg" i don't really have a problem with that, and i truly think it's an exceptional adventure game, much like resident evil 1.
I think DQ2 is largely outshone by other entries in the series, and it is in fact my least favourite of the NES DQs, but it's still absolutely an all-timer. It's definitely a big step up in complexity from the first game, and it immediately impresses upon boot-up with that adorable fat dragon holding a gem and the title screen showing the trio slowly and quietly trudging in from the shadowy depths of the screen with torches held aloft that light the foreground when they get there, at which point the title theme triumphantly cuts in (not sure if any of this is true of the Famicom original or not; the domestic NES version is the only version that I've ever played).
It's largely fallen out of favour these days, I think, but I love it when an RPG has you slowly assemble your party and layers in the mechanical complexity in the process. It always feels like such a leap forward when you add another body, and here it's like you're departing the first game for the second when you do so. And like most games of the era, it's really fun to carefully take notes and explore the world based on those notes (I fondly remember the little notebook that accompanied my DQ2 playthrough-- I wish I'd kept it), especially once you are emboatened. I loved the boat exploration here. I think DQ3 does it better, but I still had a lot of fun sailing around to find new places. The high point for me was finding the island with a kingdom with a monster arena on it; that always stuck with me for some reason.
Much ink has been spilled on the Road to Rhone near the end and how difficult and fair or unfair it may be, but I'll just say that I loved that punishing gauntlet (on original hardware, with no walkthroughs or maps) as a capstone to the experience. Yes, "Gold Batboon chanted Sacrifice" makes my blood run cold to this day, but you throw yourself against it, take a few TPKs, learn the route, and then finally make it to that blessed final shrine/checkpoint on the other side. Unfortunately, it feels like that one dungeon has informed DQ discourse ever since, since DQ-haters love to point at how instant death spells are bad and unfair as a big reason for their distaste (usually followed by complaints about %-success revive magic), despite how vanishingly rare they are outside of the Road to Rhone.
My personal fondness for the original DQ aside, I think it's kind of impressive how each NES DQ game just iterates and improves on what came before, strictly getting better over time. In contrast to That Other Series which often likes to take big swings and change drastically from one entry to the next (especially in its second entry, in stark contrast to DQ2), DQ just slowly and steadily tries to improve the same central formula, and that began here. I think the two series work well as a pair in that respect, with one being willing to take risks and chase the new hotness, for better or for worse, while ol' reliable is here for the olds who are scared of change and just want to hit a slime with a bamboo pole.
It's largely fallen out of favour these days, I think, but I love it when an RPG has you slowly assemble your party and layers in the mechanical complexity in the process. It always feels like such a leap forward when you add another body, and here it's like you're departing the first game for the second when you do so. And like most games of the era, it's really fun to carefully take notes and explore the world based on those notes (I fondly remember the little notebook that accompanied my DQ2 playthrough-- I wish I'd kept it), especially once you are emboatened. I loved the boat exploration here. I think DQ3 does it better, but I still had a lot of fun sailing around to find new places. The high point for me was finding the island with a kingdom with a monster arena on it; that always stuck with me for some reason.
Much ink has been spilled on the Road to Rhone near the end and how difficult and fair or unfair it may be, but I'll just say that I loved that punishing gauntlet (on original hardware, with no walkthroughs or maps) as a capstone to the experience. Yes, "Gold Batboon chanted Sacrifice" makes my blood run cold to this day, but you throw yourself against it, take a few TPKs, learn the route, and then finally make it to that blessed final shrine/checkpoint on the other side. Unfortunately, it feels like that one dungeon has informed DQ discourse ever since, since DQ-haters love to point at how instant death spells are bad and unfair as a big reason for their distaste (usually followed by complaints about %-success revive magic), despite how vanishingly rare they are outside of the Road to Rhone.
My personal fondness for the original DQ aside, I think it's kind of impressive how each NES DQ game just iterates and improves on what came before, strictly getting better over time. In contrast to That Other Series which often likes to take big swings and change drastically from one entry to the next (especially in its second entry, in stark contrast to DQ2), DQ just slowly and steadily tries to improve the same central formula, and that began here. I think the two series work well as a pair in that respect, with one being willing to take risks and chase the new hotness, for better or for worse, while ol' reliable is here for the olds who are scared of change and just want to hit a slime with a bamboo pole.