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I had a good feeling! Celebrating 40 Years and 108 JRPGs of Destiny
- Thread starter Lokii
- Start date
63: Romancing SaGa 2
Square, 1993: Super Famicom Points: 262 Votes: 7
We wrap up Kawazu Week with one of his most celebrated games. With Romancing SaGa 2 we see the series entering its fruitful middle period and the formula established that will carry it to Scarlet Grace and its modern era. Some of the essential foundation was introduced in Romancing SaGa 1, what with its open world and multi-protagonists structure. But that game—charming as it is in the way early SNES RPGs tended to be—is still rough and unmoored and in a space apart from what SaGa would become.
In Romancing SaGa 2 we find the second half of the equation. Here the quest system and world design was cleaned up and varied, but more importantly SaGa cornerstones like LP and skill sparking were introduced. Enough cannot be said for the impact these design choices had on differentiating SaGa from other types of JRPGs. HP and LP management is a whole different ballgame from the typical methods they’re normally articulated. In addition to the threat of permadeath—witnessing a character hit the floor along with that bloody red LP -1 message is sure to launch one’s heart into their throat—the way HP is treated more like a form of armor radically changes the flow of aggression and defense.
But as has been noted already, it’s skill sparking that really sets the game aflame. Depending on a character’s class, skill level, weapon used, technique used, and target enemy strength, (plus a hefty helping of RNG), there’s a chance on any given turn that they’ll have a burst of inspiration and pull out a cool new move that will then be added to their permanent repertoire. And since there’s no indication of what moves will spark when or how, it transforms each turn into a spin of the roulette. To know there’s a chance for a character to do something cool at any given moment, and then to be surprised when that lightbulb suddenly flashes, is pure dopaminergic joy. It makes random encounters something to treasure instead of periodic annoyances and it’s no wonder this gameplay conceit would become the series’ hallmark moving forward.
Add onto all of that the game’s wonderful conceit of leading an empire across many generations in their millennia-long resistance against the legendary seven heroes (i.e. the typical world-saving JRPG party) who have come back as prophesied, but come back wrong, transformed into monsters and tyrants. It’s just too good. So fresh and innovative, polished and memorable, it’s easy to see why Romancing SaGa 2 in particular is so fondly remembered among the series’ best.
I had RS2 at #13. It took me a long time to actually get through the game even with buying the release of the updated mobile/console port. But once I really gave it my full attention, I had a blast. I was not as big a fan of the Revenge of the Seven remake, but that's neither here nor there. What other game lets you have an Empress named Beaver??
gorha
For the Ylory of Mankind
Romancing SaGa 2 is incredible. I "only" had it at #38, because I tend to value a game that does a few things really well over one that does lots of things, and most of the SaGa games that followed RS2 do a few things better, but that RS2 does as many things as it does as well as it does really is impressive. As the game that really codified its own series, despite being the fifth installment thereof, it was doing a lot of those things for the first time, too. And it does do some things better than its successors, even; it's still the game that uses LP most effectively, and it has one of the best stories in the series IMO. I love the premise of playing as the good empire taking down the evil legendary heroes, and RS2's world has a lot going on outside of that main conflict as well.
The heroes themselves are also great, really memorable characters despite none of them getting that much screen time. I've had this half-formed idea kicking around in my head since playing the remaster that they could be based on disruptive tabletop RPG players, although they're probably just supposed to be the seven deadly sins. Either way, they make excellent villains. They're despicable yet charismatic, a little bit pitiable once you learn their backstory, and terrifying foes once you finally get to fight them.
The heroes themselves are also great, really memorable characters despite none of them getting that much screen time. I've had this half-formed idea kicking around in my head since playing the remaster that they could be based on disruptive tabletop RPG players, although they're probably just supposed to be the seven deadly sins. Either way, they make excellent villains. They're despicable yet charismatic, a little bit pitiable once you learn their backstory, and terrifying foes once you finally get to fight them.
Catching up a bit... FFL:
As for RS2.... looks cool, I don't think I've actually ever played any 16-bit SaGa though.
... well shit, yeah, now I'm thinking that just the straight up plot and structure of FFL could make an *awesome* tabletop campaign for a bunch of players who have no prior exposure to it. Well, except for the fact that the DM would basically be having to make like a dozen mini-campaigns, which would be a lot of work... though it could also be a benefit depending on the play dynamics of the group, to break things up that way.
I also didn't have FF2 on my list, but while I was pretty down on the game back in the day for the usual mostly wrong-headed reasons, I definitely came around on it when I started messing with the GBA version. Lots of good stuff to chew on, and so many perfectly valid ways to do it.
And yeah, that main theme is an all-timer. Again way back in the day, even though I hadn't actually played the game at all, I had a bunch of imported arranged orchestral FF music CDs and such, and loved all the renditions of that theme.
As for RS2.... looks cool, I don't think I've actually ever played any 16-bit SaGa though.
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
Duly noted! I do have the PS5 version that I need to boot up.
xeen's last couple square remakes have definitely surprised me because they really do care about a lot of little details and don't shy away from how weird super famicom rpgs are at times even though i'd very much say they're making contemporary rpgs which are reinterpretations of the sources. personally i feel that the system changes in the remake make the game feel considerably less saga-ish, but obviously for some people that's going to be a perk and either way the large scale of the game is shockingly similar despite all the changes...a lot of things feel like they work similarly even with the subclass system and aspects as fundamental as damage calculations being totally different.
and i mean, the originaly version is arguably the most saga-ish saga game, laying out a shocking amount of the series' core feel and design in one go and even some of the less consistent systems have been remixed as major aspects of later games (what i'm thinking of most is the castle blacksmith, which was directly reused in nora's shop in rs3. mythe in unlmited saga works as a blacksmith and you can use one of your skill slots on his proficiency to get more use out of it, and then the whole crafting systems in SGEB also resembles it in a way). though along with all that this is one of the games where most famously it's very possible to get pretty stuck at the end...that's something the remake definitely works hard to address.
on my list this game placed just behind FFL at 23...i was totally hooked into it on my first playthrough and still love it a ton, but the game's structure doesn't really have as much of an illusion of variety as a lot of the later games. of course that's not everything...i think for me the fundamental appeal of this game is how easy it is to fill in the story alongside the game. pretty similar things always happen, but the order, and the slightly specific elements that keep the game from being the same every time-who's in your party, and especially the leader. you get really exciting historical eras and then ones where it feels like you hardly did anything. you just had to grind and build a lot.
though that's the other aspect of the main character switching i love...it feels like such a strongly implied statement about the power of diversity. the point of the game is to use all of hte knowledge that comes from each new region; classes, formations, and sometimes other things-to become more and more powerful. along with all the grinding, of course
and i mean, the originaly version is arguably the most saga-ish saga game, laying out a shocking amount of the series' core feel and design in one go and even some of the less consistent systems have been remixed as major aspects of later games (what i'm thinking of most is the castle blacksmith, which was directly reused in nora's shop in rs3. mythe in unlmited saga works as a blacksmith and you can use one of your skill slots on his proficiency to get more use out of it, and then the whole crafting systems in SGEB also resembles it in a way). though along with all that this is one of the games where most famously it's very possible to get pretty stuck at the end...that's something the remake definitely works hard to address.
on my list this game placed just behind FFL at 23...i was totally hooked into it on my first playthrough and still love it a ton, but the game's structure doesn't really have as much of an illusion of variety as a lot of the later games. of course that's not everything...i think for me the fundamental appeal of this game is how easy it is to fill in the story alongside the game. pretty similar things always happen, but the order, and the slightly specific elements that keep the game from being the same every time-who's in your party, and especially the leader. you get really exciting historical eras and then ones where it feels like you hardly did anything. you just had to grind and build a lot.
though that's the other aspect of the main character switching i love...it feels like such a strongly implied statement about the power of diversity. the point of the game is to use all of hte knowledge that comes from each new region; classes, formations, and sometimes other things-to become more and more powerful. along with all the grinding, of course
I think I own the SNES version on Switch (along with RS3), but I've hesitated pulling the trigger. I think I find it intimidating, the one-two combo of the lack of QOL in a 16 bit RPG combined with the obtuseness of SaGa in general apparently being at a pretty high point for the series. I fear I may not have the patience for it. But I really want to try it! Argh, the duality of man.
I've had my eye on the remake specifically because it's supposed to smooth out a lot of those rough edges and add QOL stuff and make it more palatable to modern audiences. But I also *feel bad* that I'd be skipping the original...
I've had my eye on the remake specifically because it's supposed to smooth out a lot of those rough edges and add QOL stuff and make it more palatable to modern audiences. But I also *feel bad* that I'd be skipping the original...
For what it's worth, I think it would be a pretty decent experience to play the remake first and then go to play the remaster mobile port. I think the remake would let you know a lot about how the original game works by doing it that way.
62. Xenoblade Chronicles
Monolith, 2010: Wii Points: 263 Votes: 8 Previous Rank: 49
It’s wild to think this game—and thus its sequels and popularity and Smashing Brothers inclusion—almost didn’t happen because NoA got cold feet over bringing a JRPG out on the Wii. Thankfully with a little help from the only grassroots campaign to ever make a difference, the game made it to US shores and the clock struck Reyn time at last.
Xenoblade’s a real interesting game, part of the sub-genre of singleplayer MMOs that includes FFXII and, um… CrossCode I guess. Titles that try to replicate the modes and pacing of a type of game that’s designed to eat up your time with lots of little drop quests, gear juggling, vast expanses, and a detached approach to combat, but all in the service of a lone experience rather than the thousands of simultaneous players those elements were built to support.
What this means is that Xenoblade is a game about exploring gorgeous, wide open landscapes, and semi-autocombating every bird, bug, and giant stalking monkey you come across. Combat is actually pretty involved, despite its automatic features, with lots of juggling of special move order and cooldown timers but also positioning as you’re constantly circle-strafing foes to line up more effective hits. In this way it shares with action-RPGs “positioning” as its primary verb; strange bedfellows.
But it’s the setting that really drives this game. Those locations are really something, even all these years later. Massive fantasyscapes and alien biomes just begging to be explored, and made even cooler by the fact that they’re located on the continent-sized corpses of two giants who killed each other in prehistoric combat. This is an impossibly cool idea for a setting, one that really drives all the mystery and wonder in the game, and you really feel it as your bunch of jokers scamper over the incredible vistas of the Bionis’ head, shoulders, knees and toes.
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
I actually imported this right before they ended up announcing it for a US release, so all my playthrough is on my PAL copy. (I found a US version for cheap later.)
I've always enjoyed the Xenoblade games, even if I don't love MMO-style combat, because I do think they get exploration right where FFXII failed in that regard. You're actually rewarded with both EXP, items, and actually interesting vistas and locales, so I can stomach a few spongey enemies. But even there, I appreciated how the combat was handled, where positioning actually mattered with Shulk. It kept things more engaging that just watching dudes auto-attack.
Later entries I think are more consistent, but I don't think any of them have hit the highs of this first game. If you're going to play just one, this is the one. (I admittedly haven't finished Xenoblade 3, sorry, I've failed you all.)
I've always enjoyed the Xenoblade games, even if I don't love MMO-style combat, because I do think they get exploration right where FFXII failed in that regard. You're actually rewarded with both EXP, items, and actually interesting vistas and locales, so I can stomach a few spongey enemies. But even there, I appreciated how the combat was handled, where positioning actually mattered with Shulk. It kept things more engaging that just watching dudes auto-attack.
Later entries I think are more consistent, but I don't think any of them have hit the highs of this first game. If you're going to play just one, this is the one. (I admittedly haven't finished Xenoblade 3, sorry, I've failed you all.)
I played... most of the way through. I think. I got at least as far as some people with wings on their heads. More than half way? I have no idea. I didn't quit because I disliked anything or got distracted, I just had my fill and I didn't want to ruin my good impressions by forcing myself to finish it. Good game, definitely worth playing.
Xenoblade has been on my to-do list for a long time. Maybe some day I'll get around to it?
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
It's Reyn Time!
i have bad news for you
Anyway, Xenoblade Chronicles! This one didn't make my list, but it's good! Melia is very goals. I played the Switch re-release a couple of years ago and it's still good!
If the bad news is that the game was a lot longer, that’s actually good news - I quit at the right time.
Yeah... I'd say Erythia Sea/Alcamoth is somewhere closer to the 35% or 40% mark.
There is a lot of video game on the disc.
There is a lot of video game on the disc.
This came in at #15 on my list; I'm a big fan. As a sucker for exploration porn in games, Xenoblade the First is inarguably an all-timer of world design; as Loki said, the setting is impossibly cool, the art design and visuals are beautiful (and shockingly good for the Wii). The music is also Very Good; I'm a fan of Guar Plain in particular. Even if the plot isn't very inspired, pretty much everything else in the game makes it an easy recommendation. I think I put about 115 hours into it, give or take?
I actually really liked the combat; the funny thing about the game is that while you might expect to just control Shulk and micromanage your other members' auto-battling the whole time, it turns out you can control any party member as your primary character, and each character has incredibly different skills and mechanics and plays differently. Combat never got boring to me because I wasn't just rotating my party constantly, I was rotating through almost every character (I think Sharla was the only one I didn't find particularly interesting to control) so I had a lot of different sets of skills and mechanics to spice things up.
But ultimately, what makes XC so memorable is the sense of wonder and awe you get when stepping into a new area and gazing out across a massive plain, one of those giant corpses looming in the background, and then eventually getting to go and explore those areas you saw earlier and experience just how massive the world really is. It's a pretty remarkable game.
I actually really liked the combat; the funny thing about the game is that while you might expect to just control Shulk and micromanage your other members' auto-battling the whole time, it turns out you can control any party member as your primary character, and each character has incredibly different skills and mechanics and plays differently. Combat never got boring to me because I wasn't just rotating my party constantly, I was rotating through almost every character (I think Sharla was the only one I didn't find particularly interesting to control) so I had a lot of different sets of skills and mechanics to spice things up.
But ultimately, what makes XC so memorable is the sense of wonder and awe you get when stepping into a new area and gazing out across a massive plain, one of those giant corpses looming in the background, and then eventually getting to go and explore those areas you saw earlier and experience just how massive the world really is. It's a pretty remarkable game.
R.R. Bigman
Coolest Guy
I enjoyed Xenoblade Chronicles and put way too much time into. I also think it gets gradually worse the longer it goes on, with the final leg of the game completely losing me. I suppose if I had played previous Xeno games the abrupt story changes wouldn’t have felt so out of nowhere.
I will say that if I had the Twilight Zone “It’s a Good Life” reality warping mental powers that I feel in my heart I would use justly, The Last Story would have been the Project Rainfall game to become a series.
I will say that if I had the Twilight Zone “It’s a Good Life” reality warping mental powers that I feel in my heart I would use justly, The Last Story would have been the Project Rainfall game to become a series.
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
Absolutely this. The Last Story is so overlooked. I hope it shows up on the list (I assume I didn't miss it?) - I definitely voted for it.
Pajaro Pete
(He/Himbo)
in an era when most JRPGs were scaling back to fit on the small screen of the DS and the PSP, Xenoblade Chronicles dared to ask "what if map was big?" and "what if cutscenes had direction?"
I couldn't tell you how far I got into Xenoblade, but I did my part and bought both it and The Last Story. The power of the monado just wasn't enough for me to finish the game. I'd considered playing the remaster, but at this point in my life I kinda limit the number of 80+ hour games I commit to.
Issun
(He/Him)
What a bunch of jokersIt's Reyn Time!
I bought Xenoblade Chronicles on the Wii and the Switch; I never finished it for the Wii but the refinements in Definitive Edition pushed me past the point I stopped and I reached the end. I really enjoyed the whole experience for many of the reasons already listed: the exploration element is huge and captivating, especially with such wild aesthetic choices for the locales. I love the music so much for this game. The characters are overall great and the storyline has enough intrigue to keep you going. And it was a game that defied a lot of the Nintendo ethos at that time, showing them that players still wanted epic RPG titles in between all the motion controls and gimmicks, and remains an important part of Nintendo's IP strategy since.
I'll hold on The Last Story comments until it shows up (and I hope it does), but I do feel those two games were a crucial part of my Wii era.
I'll hold on The Last Story comments until it shows up (and I hope it does), but I do feel those two games were a crucial part of my Wii era.
I got through the opening chunk of Xenoblade Chronicles. I liked what I played. But I also got bogged down trying to 100% all of the quests in the opening area and eventually burned out. Clearly the wrong way to play the game but oh well. I fully intend to come back to it one day and just play it extremely casually. But that's yet another entry to the pile of shame.
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
I can speak to this - the game has quests that you can't do beyond a certain point, so I spent a ton of time making sure I did them. In hindsight, I'd have skipped that. It's why, until Tears of the Kingdom, it was probably the game I had the highest hour total into (99.5 hours), at least for a single play.