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I had a good feeling! Celebrating 40 Years and 108 JRPGs of Destiny

I'm curious about FFL3 as well - it's on my list, but in its remade form (I like the original version well enough, but thank god they put a fast forward option in the SaGa collection they released a few weeks back, because that game plays sooooooooo slooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwww). I wonder, if it makes it, will it come as both versions or one or the other? I guess we'll see!
 
WisteriaHysteria said:
I really wish we had gotten the WonderSwan remake of SaGa1, or the NDS remakes of SaGa 2 and 3. Anyone here ever play them?
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All of them, yes. They are all fantastic and well worth playing (and outside FFL2, are the definitive versions of each game - and the FFL2 DS game is still amazing but is just eeeever so slightly less interesting to me aesthetically. It's probably still the best version, I just love GB FFL2 so much...)
 
ha, this ended up being my next highest saga game after scarlet grace (at #22). just a really cool dungeon crawler with simple presentation (on account of the gameboy and all that) but a rich mixture of ideas with the different character classes, and the alternating of overworld segments, which all have different flavor and gimmicks, with tower climbing. i also adore the story, which is cast as a kind of myth with that simplicity, the overall premise and the identities of the major bosses. but the weird little twists as it goes on eventually turn it into something that to me feels very unique to the medium that is games. (not just videogames, i think it'd work similarly as a kind of tabletop campaign, but not as, say, a movie distanced from the context of games)

not to mention the part of this game that's recalled in a much later japanese dungeon crawler featuring a player-constructed party, that came up earlier in this thread...

also on the topic of dungeon crawlers since people brought it up again, i'm in the midst of a very hitoshi sakimoto year which has included trying to seriously dig into vagrant story for the first time. i'm still only a handful of hours in and t's a bit of a barrier to psych myself up for it but when i'm ready for that experience it's been so satisfying all around. it combines a lot of mechanical ideas i wouldn't associate into something i think is really compelling and the presentation is absolutely stellar
 
I didn't vote for this one, but did for its sequel. Doesn't mean that I don't really love this game, though. The fact that this was the first handheld RPG, and that it pulled it off with significant complexity, always impressed me as a kid. Despite being rough around the edges, it has a lot of really cool ideas, and some of the music is top-tier. I used to beat my end-game save often just to hear the really cool final boss and ending music.
 
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64: Final Fantasy II
Square, 1988: Famicom Points: 259 Votes: 7​

I’m as surprised as you are. Still, FFII has seen a reevaluation since the dark days of “it’s a game where you have to hit yourself.” It’s still among the least beloved and lauded of the mainline series, but it’s no longer cast in such dire sentiments as it once was and there’s plenty of appreciation for the nuance of its unorthodox mechanics, Guy speaking beaver, and toading of the final boss.

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Final Fantasy II is also an interesting game in terms of its position as a mainline FF and as a sort of SaGa 0. Many of its ideas would be retained and refined as that series developed, but there’s lots of fundamentals to Final Fantasy’s identity that find their origin here. Chocobos and Cid and dragoons, Ultima, meteor, and esuna, malboros, coeurls, behemoths, and bombs, back rows, two-handing, double-wielding, shields as evasion, and revolving guest characters: all intrinsic to what Final Fantasy is and all come out of this poor maligned game.

For me, the most significant contribution is FFII’s storytelling ambition. Far progressed from FF1’s D&D adventure scenario, II actually attempts to present an ongoing and evolving plot that involves the player party as dramatic agents. JRPGs as a story medium have become so normalized that the wild aspiration to tell a tale the player is actually involved in is lost as a measure of distinction, but II was a forerunner in this regard. It uses a number of tricks to achieve this, from the innovative invention of the impossible to win story battle to its charming and unfortunately abandoned keyword system. But the most radical development is under the hood, with an unprecedented amount of storage space dedicated to event flags and story states. When memory is so limited and every byte precious, relegating so much of the available resources just to story presentation is a revolutionary approach.

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How funny then, that it should be Kawazu—very much known as a mechanics-first developer—to be the one helming a project with this much emphasis on narrative expression. But that’s what happens with a guy who always zigs when you think he’s going to zag and is never content with repeating what came before.
 
No way. I didn't even put that on my list! I love FF2! I've played almost all of the NES version and have beaten both the GBA and Pixel Remaster versions a couple times. I love the character building, it's my favorite part - you can make such a broken party if you don't mind grinding (and I don't, generally).
 
Not my favorite by any means but I've never had a bad time with it. A dark, vicious game, to be sure. Whenever people take umbrage with FF16's gloom and doom and how almost everyone in that game gets the shit end of the stick in one way or another, I like to point to FF2. There's a tonal precendent. The tone and tenor of both games is quite similar, even if the particulars are different for several reasons. FF2 stands out to me for that, especially in light of a lot of the FF games that followed it: A lot of terrible shit happens in the game and when the credits finally rolled, I felt a since of relief, not triumph.

My understanding is that the GBA version has an extra story that concerns the deceased folks, Minwu and Co. Curious what that is about.
 
One thing that FF2 has in spades is atmosphere. A lot of that is due to the limitations and subsequent versions never quite nail it but a big part of that is the music. 3 gets all the accolades musically for the NES trilogy, and it deserves them, but Uematsu's score lends a feeling of lonely melancholy to the proceedings. No track, I think, exemplifies that as well as the overworld theme. No "updated" version can capture the feeling of that one special sound channel (that has also shown up in FF3, Mega Man 4, and others) that I love so much playing long, mournful notes as the party treks from one disaster to another.

 
unique among ff games in that i've played it in the last 5 years but it didn't quite make the cut. i thought it was pretty cool, it's an obviously formative game for ff as a series as far as the storytelling, setting, and themes go, and one which later entries like 9 and 12 especially recall heavily. and of course you can see the hints of kawazu's later games in it. i just don't like it quite as much as most of its close relatives.

the weird map stands out as one of the biggest charm points in my mind. i also laughed out loud the first time i got back attacked by 7 imps who cast confuse 16
 
Not one I was expecting to make it, but huh. I don't have the hate for it that much of the Internet does (did you know you have to hit yourself to get HP LOLZ), but it is a bit rough around the edges. But storytelling for the era was quite good, and that core that would form the SaGa series is obviously important. I'd also say the rebalanced versions (I played through Dawn of Souls) are legit fun and smooth out the rough patches - maybe a bit too much, as it's a pretty easy game in that form with no exploits needed.
 
FF2 is like Zelda II: Adventure of Link. It gets a lot of flack from fans for its unconventional battle system, but it is also secretly the secret most important game in the franchise going forwards thanks to all the myriad precedents that it set and things it created. I wouldn't have put it on my list, but it's very nice and deserved to see it here.
 
I put it in nr. 46, which means I still love it. When I gave it a fair shot, I was really surprised. I needed a few infos before, like that you should focus characters from the start, but with that out of the way, it was a pretty smooth experience. I grinded at the start a bit, I think, so everyone got a few mp to cast cure, which took only a very short time, and then never, I think. I mean, I never used the airships, which can get you quickly from city to city, but used the time to grow, which might be considered grinding? But still, with that method, I nearly never had a problem. With only three exceptions: The Dreadnaught, which is a pretty hard and long dungeon, where I would enter, get stronger, and leave, until it worked, the later cave were Gygasses are normal enemies (I would make a detour and find the magic city you don't need to ever visit, which has axes specifically for giants) and the final dungeon, where I just fled from battles.

I think the first time, I needed the blood sword to kill the Emperor, but the second time, it worked without that exploit. As with FF VIII, the game is surprisingly well balanced, if you just play and don't flee from most battles.

It has a great vibe, it was forward thinking, it had the first chocobo (mostly hidden), The Emperor is surprisingly effective at being a menacing entity, despite nearly never being on screen (or maybe because of that). It's such a bleak game, too, with so much of the world in ruins at the end.

Oh, and I really like the guest characters. Josef will be forever one of my favorites. Something about this game fills in all the things these characters don't do visually, and endears me to them. When he blocks the rock, I find it pretty touching. In some way, I like the brevity and simplicity of this game more than in FF IV, and IV feels a lot like a second try for this one. Not that they are redundant, you just see so much of II in IVs dna. (I still have IV higher, just to be clear that I love that one too, but still).

Oh, it introduced the Dragoons! Even if they don't have their trademark ability yet, they are still there, and you get one as a guest.

I'm glad this place appreciates FF II for what it is, instead of criticising it for what it isn't. I mean, not liking it is fair enough. But I think everyone here knows by now, that you don't need to hit yourself, or whatever else nonsense the Internet says, by now.

And I really think people, generally, underestimate how absolutely essential this game is for the series. I still think that FF I is way more a D&D game, than a "real" FF one. FF II is the one that gave the series its own identity. It has the first Evil Empire, such an important part of the series! The Star Wars influence starts mostly here. Like, this is the blueprint of how stories in the series would be told. And I know, even if people don't like the game, they appreciate its place in the series story, but I think most don't appreciate how absolutely important it really was. So, so much is born here, it's crazy.
 
the mention of chocobos reminds me the other big iconic creatures first introduced in ff2, with malboros, behemoths, and bombs all making their debut too

the lady vampires became more of a saga staple though. lol
 
I had Final Fantasy 2 at #40 and The Final Fantasy Legend at #31. I played 2 on the PS1 and GBA ports. I liked it but it is my least favorite Final Fantasy game which is probably why I haven't felt the need to revisit it.

By the way - the Final Fantasy enemy Iron Giant also debuted in 2. And it was also the debut of the iconic visual design for Flans (and their many palette swaps).

WisteriaHysteria said:
FF2 is like Zelda II: Adventure of Link. [...] is also secretly the secret most important game in the franchise going forwards thanks to all the myriad precedents that it set and things it created.
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Would you mind going into more detail about this? I can think of a couple of things but I feel like there are some things I'm forgetting or overlooking.

JBear said:
I love the giant pointing glove here. I know it's been baked into FF from the jump, but It's just such a vibe here on the Gameboy.
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I think that might be because of how large and prominent it is on screen compared to FFs that are on home consoles. And yeah that glove across the many incarnations it has had in the series is just an iconic video game cursor. (That makes me wonder who designed it.)

Lokii said:
FFII has seen a reevaluation since the dark days of “it’s a game where you have to hit yourself.”
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Yeah, that's completely unnecessary - you can just cast the Swap spell instead.

Lokii said:
revolving guest characters
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Torzelbaum said:
Number 4 is helping!
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Torzelbaum said:
Would you mind going into more detail about this? I can think of a couple of things but I feel like there are some things I'm forgetting or overlooking.
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People have already talked about things like the invention of series mainstays like Chocobos and certain iconic monsters. But I'm also talking from more abstract things like turning the series into a narrative driven experience, centered around more mature and tragic themes, named characters with their own personalities that are locked permanently into character classes/party roles, our first Cid, etc
 
FFL is on my To-Do List. The concept of the Tower has always fascinated me, even if looking back it's really just a cheat to connect unrelated worlds.

FF2 is much better than the world gives it credit for. It bites off a huge narrative for an 8-bit game and mostly pulls it off, with the exception that the main characters are pretty thin. The colorful secondary cast makes up for it though. The "Stop Hitting Yourself" point is an unfortunately accurate but unnecessary hack, to be honest. I certainly remember having Minwu alternate between smacking the MCs and healing them back in the days where I played in the way the Internet insisted was Optimal.

Also, monster closets.

But seriously, FF owes so much to this game it's ridiculous. There are arguably more series defining things introduced than in FF1.
 
Broke: hitting yourself to get HP
Woke: casting Change on Goblins to get HP and MP
Bespoke: not grinding

I too did not vote for FFII, but I liked it a lot when I played it... over 25 years ago, so my memories of it aren't too clear. I've had the Final Fantasy Origins pack downloaded to my PS3 for years now and finally played its version of FFI a few months ago and loved it, so I definitely want to get to FFII soon.
 
Final Fantasy II has a really cool plot! The Emperor is really a fantastic villain, and I love that he gets a lot of time to shine in the crossover games like Dissidia.
 
Oh wow, finally a mainline Final Fantasy! I don't have a lot to say, as people here have already pointed out its merits and how it gets an unfair rep due to people minmaxing it instead of approaching it on its own terms, but I appreciate it for being one of the few RPGs willing to demolish entire towns and cities to sell the threat of the evil forces, especially considering how young the genre was at the time and how limited its resources were on the NES. Not my favorite Final Fantasy by any shot, but it's still a decently crafted experience in its own right, despite some very very dickish moves.
 
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Huh, realizing that both JRPG lists took very close to the same amount of entries to hit their first mainline FF game (that is a numbered entry with no addendum).

This one took a little longer but if you scale it it's super close.
 
Lokii said:
FFII has seen a reevaluation since the dark days of “it’s a game where you have to hit yourself.”​
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FF2 is probably the best example out there of how a single person in a strong position can completely dictate the way a piece of media is perceived by the world at large.

This one random guy imported a copy from Japan somewhere along the years, got a wildly wrong idea in his head about how the mechanics worked, wrote a guide saying it was a weird broken system and that the game was basically unplayable if people didn't use the incredibly grindy and secretly terrible strategy he decided to use to get through it, and everyone just took him at his word on it for the next several decades.

And the thing that gets me is, FF2 actually has what I'd easily call the best implementation of That Thing Kawazu Does out of the whole lot. Everything just kinda works. If you load a character down with a bunch of spells and have them cast those constantly, that character ends up being a great mage. Give someone a sword in each hand, they're going to end up being a double-wielding terror. Strip a character naked and have them just punch stuff in the face? You're going to have a nimble monk hitting like a truck and dodging everything. There's no special tricks needed. There's no weird swing-y RNG like the skill sparks and life points later SaGa games revolve around, or esoteric guide-fodder like DSC.

Plus it's really great at self-balancing. Blitz through the game and get in over your head? Limp through a couple fights and you'll get sudden huge stat boosts and a mountain of HP. No reason to do any sort of early game grinding (... except that one turtle early on that's basically immune to everything but blunt damage and ice spells that's admittedly an early wall). Ends up being a much smoother, more customizable experience than anything else until a good hardware generation out.

(And for real, the famous stand around hitting yourself strategy is not only tedious and unintuitive, it's actively self-sabotaging. There aren't numbered levels, but there's still an experience curve. You get next to nothing stat growth wise from early game enemies, and particularly in the original release, there's stat decay, so sure, sit around for an hour and punch yourselves in the face and you'll eventually end up with good barehanded damage and HP... at the cost of dropping all your other stats through the floor and still being terrible on damage output with anything that isn't hitting yourself in the face. And even if it's the way you want to go... unarmed damage goes up way faster if you just play the game and hit monsters, and your HP will go up over time without needing any sort of babysitting at all. Again, likely faster. I don't know what was wrong with that one guy everyone trusts on this that he even tried to do that.)

But yeah, aside from the mechanics actually being great if you don't try to game the system with faulty logic, the plot's just neat. I can't think of any other game where the evil empire feels like this much of an active everpresent agent. You clear out one of their dungeons, they bomb one of your towns off the face of the earth. That's the Chicago way. And the emperor? Just some guy, goes down like a chump, but he summons in a ton of bodyguards before you can actually get to him. And then once you do kill him he takes over hell, which is just a cool thing for some jerk to go and do. Vastly underrated game.



Oh and SaGa 1 is also rad. It DOES have some real "how was I expected to work this out?" Kawazu weirdness, but not too much of it, and there's something really special about the weird freaking world not drawing any sort of line between humans and monsters on just stacking disparate setttings on top of eachother in a big random pillar. It's like Sigil or something. Which I continue to like in the other SaGa games that revisit that notion.
 
Purple said:
This one random guy imported a copy from Japan somewhere along the years, got a wildly wrong idea in his head about how the mechanics worked, wrote a guide saying it was a weird broken system and that the game was basically unplayable if people didn't use the incredibly grindy and secretly terrible strategy he decided to use to get through it, and everyone just took him at his word on it for the next several decades.
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As people have often joked about, GameFAQers are pretty terrible at strategy. Sucks that that guy ruined the game's perception for a long time though. 😩
 
4-So said:
My understanding is that the GBA version has an extra story that concerns the deceased folks, Minwu and Co. Curious what that is about.
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They go to heaven and kill the emperor there, which allows the main party to defeat Hell Emperor. Why is the emperor in heaven? Don't worry about it, that's why.

It's mostly a novelty that gives you a compressed version of the same game. Everything scales faster, so you scale faster, too.

It is kinda neat, though, that the characters start as you left them in the main game, so you can send them on their way with a care package if you like. The early game can be a little rough if they have their base stats and equipment.
 
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