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Help me figure out which bullshit JRPG I want to play
- Thread starter Gaer
- Start date
Vidfamne
Banned
About Cosmic Star Heroine, spoilered for length given that it is slightly off-topic
Re CSH writing
@Peklo
Among the (human) men, Finn at least looks like he fell out of Phantasy Star:
-- "conventionally attractive" for sure, but I don't consider this "plain-looking".
You're right to stay away from CSH if you care about good writing, btw. It's not as infused with this damnable sarcastic sovereignty that I think you expect, and there's some genuinely interesting ideas such as the life cycle of the Nuluup natives, but overall, it ranges from sympathetically boring to miserable. Guess which of the party members betrays you in the end. It's the woman that looks least like a Phantasy Star character. She's a revolutionary leader and a nerd. She's also a psychopath who sells out all of humanity to an AI that overwhelmed her after some kind of Faustian pact, iirc, and I still have no idea about her motivation beyond "I'll show them all" or such.
I still think that the environments are beautiful, e.g. Nuluup City or the Hivemind Tower. I also think the writers did try to be "inclusive" -- it must be the only game I've played that has a neon sign written in what I think is Devanagari script. That doesn't concern your critique as such, though. It's also peculiar that there are no alien or robotic women among the party. "Arete" being arguable.
Re CSH difficulty
@JBear
I generally disagree, obviously.
But I do agree it's potentially frustrating that the game doesn't deign to explain desperation moves until after that first battle. Anyway, the correct sequence is
The unfairness arises iff a player dies before 100% style by some other path, then thinks of this route and dismisses it having thought five turns ahead.
Of course "real life doesn't have hitpoints" and I could argue that, absent any clear path to success, you should just go for what seems closest to that and see if stars align to make you discover something unforeseen. But I'm sure I don't always adhere to that, either, and I'm not sure if this is really more than a platitude.
The only other unfair battle I recall is the 2x Scimerex-X, 1x Security-Droid-X battle, for which I've never found a strategy that works without luck mattering (maybe there is one). I wrote a Super-Spy walkthrough for chapters 1-7 because I initially found it so engaging, before abandoning it because my remarks on encounters had almost all become "do what you want".
If I may, I think people should generally shed the idea that there is always something such as a tutorial, in the sense that you cannot lose if you follow the on-screen orders.
@Dracula
Precisely because you can change difficulty at any time, there's no reason not to start on the hardest setting. I wish I'd done it for my first playthrough (which was on second-highest: I only ever struggled/died against two of the superbosses -- Cthulhu and the Maw, and then only by attempting them at the earliest opportunity -- I failed on both, though the Maw was nasty because my attempts only failed 20 minutes into the battle, it grows unmanageable so slowly that I was convinced there was an out), instead of thinking "the difficult part must be right around the corner" until the final boss dealt 1 damage to my party members. The Mecha-Dragon even faked me out about this happening, but turns out it's a disguised puzzle boss that is designed to one-shot your huscarls and -carlies no matter what, rather than representative of a general increase in enemy strength.
I did take care to rotate the party often, but I think that, after the midway point, it requires more precision (and foreknowledge) to avoid breaking this game than not. All of Lauren, Chahn, Clyde and Psybe (especially Psybe!) break the endgame by their mere inclusion, with the others not far behind. I also found the game's range of equipment sparse, allowing few meaningful variants.
@Peklo
Among the (human) men, Finn at least looks like he fell out of Phantasy Star:
You're right to stay away from CSH if you care about good writing, btw. It's not as infused with this damnable sarcastic sovereignty that I think you expect, and there's some genuinely interesting ideas such as the life cycle of the Nuluup natives, but overall, it ranges from sympathetically boring to miserable. Guess which of the party members betrays you in the end. It's the woman that looks least like a Phantasy Star character. She's a revolutionary leader and a nerd. She's also a psychopath who sells out all of humanity to an AI that overwhelmed her after some kind of Faustian pact, iirc, and I still have no idea about her motivation beyond "I'll show them all" or such.
I still think that the environments are beautiful, e.g. Nuluup City or the Hivemind Tower. I also think the writers did try to be "inclusive" -- it must be the only game I've played that has a neon sign written in what I think is Devanagari script. That doesn't concern your critique as such, though. It's also peculiar that there are no alien or robotic women among the party. "Arete" being arguable.
Re CSH difficulty
@JBear
I generally disagree, obviously.
But I do agree it's potentially frustrating that the game doesn't deign to explain desperation moves until after that first battle. Anyway, the correct sequence is
Laser, Drown, Breather, Rest, Drown, Laser. It's quite intuitive to Drown on the hyper turns since elemental weaknesses are transparent, and you don't have many options in the first place.
Of course "real life doesn't have hitpoints" and I could argue that, absent any clear path to success, you should just go for what seems closest to that and see if stars align to make you discover something unforeseen. But I'm sure I don't always adhere to that, either, and I'm not sure if this is really more than a platitude.
The only other unfair battle I recall is the 2x Scimerex-X, 1x Security-Droid-X battle, for which I've never found a strategy that works without luck mattering (maybe there is one). I wrote a Super-Spy walkthrough for chapters 1-7 because I initially found it so engaging, before abandoning it because my remarks on encounters had almost all become "do what you want".
If I may, I think people should generally shed the idea that there is always something such as a tutorial, in the sense that you cannot lose if you follow the on-screen orders.
@Dracula
Precisely because you can change difficulty at any time, there's no reason not to start on the hardest setting. I wish I'd done it for my first playthrough (which was on second-highest: I only ever struggled/died against two of the superbosses -- Cthulhu and the Maw, and then only by attempting them at the earliest opportunity -- I failed on both, though the Maw was nasty because my attempts only failed 20 minutes into the battle, it grows unmanageable so slowly that I was convinced there was an out), instead of thinking "the difficult part must be right around the corner" until the final boss dealt 1 damage to my party members. The Mecha-Dragon even faked me out about this happening, but turns out it's a disguised puzzle boss that is designed to one-shot your huscarls and -carlies no matter what, rather than representative of a general increase in enemy strength.
I did take care to rotate the party often, but I think that, after the midway point, it requires more precision (and foreknowledge) to avoid breaking this game than not. All of Lauren, Chahn, Clyde and Psybe (especially Psybe!) break the endgame by their mere inclusion, with the others not far behind. I also found the game's range of equipment sparse, allowing few meaningful variants.
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I think it is very silly to suggest that someone start a game on the highest difficulty with the expectation that they will lose the very first battle several times in a row because it has only one precise correct set of inputs that requires knowledge of a mechanic that the game has not yet introduced/explained. It is clearly intended to be a challenge for subsequent playthroughs.
ETA: Also, I would gently suggest that the typical user experience is probably quite different from yours, given that you literally wrote a FAQ for super-hard. (At least, I think you did? I remember reading as much in your initial post, but it seems to have been edited out.)
ETA: Also, I would gently suggest that the typical user experience is probably quite different from yours, given that you literally wrote a FAQ for super-hard. (At least, I think you did? I remember reading as much in your initial post, but it seems to have been edited out.)
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I have the answer for you, Gaer: it's CrossCode! It isn't exactly what you asked for (namely, it's an action RPG), but I think it will give you the feeling that you want. It's like discovering an amazing JRPG from the 16-bit era that time somehow forgot about. Except it also has some modern design sensibilities, but seriously, it feels like coming home again.
Purple
(She/Her)
The best recommendation I can think to make is the Switch port of the original Phantasy Star. It's about as traditional as it gets. Weirdness includes needing to kill medusa and therefore needing to find a mirrored shield, which ultimately requires intermediary steps with a spaceship, a talking cat, and a hovercraft. And there is not one single skeevy design anywhere in sight. Plus said port adds quality of life features like detailed spell descriptions, need-less-grinding mode, and an auto-map in dungeons.
Also thewhole (S)NESflix thing on the switch has Breath of Fire 1&2 going on. Mostly-furries hijacking ancient mecha and such.
That said I'm also still tempted to second the shot-down recommendation of some 7th Dragon game or other. I've only played 3 (the only one actually released in the US), and while it does undeniably have some skanky freakin' character designs, nearly all of these are in the form of character customization options that you can completely ignore because character model, class, and voice actor are totally independent choices (no gender restrictions on body/voice combos even).
Of course on the other hand, the one exception that is an NPC you have to look at at one point is kind of a lot.
Also thewhole (S)NESflix thing on the switch has Breath of Fire 1&2 going on. Mostly-furries hijacking ancient mecha and such.
That said I'm also still tempted to second the shot-down recommendation of some 7th Dragon game or other. I've only played 3 (the only one actually released in the US), and while it does undeniably have some skanky freakin' character designs, nearly all of these are in the form of character customization options that you can completely ignore because character model, class, and voice actor are totally independent choices (no gender restrictions on body/voice combos even).
Of course on the other hand, the one exception that is an NPC you have to look at at one point is kind of a lot.
Gaer,
I have traveled here across space, time and dimension to tell you to play Luxaren Allure.
It was made by my friend unity, is completely free, has adorable characters, badass heroines, a robust battle system, and lots and lots of girl romance.
(Don't be scared off by the yuri tag, the game is rated PG-13 at best and there's nothing in the game meant to appeal to gross dudes.)
I will check this out at some point! Romance isn't a big draw for me, but robust battle systems are.
Alright, I want to say that I also had similar vibes that Peklo described about CSH. I did buy it and I do intend to play it. It's a gut feeling that I cannot quite articulate, but there are certain things that have given me warning signs. I am glad that they decided consciously to include more women and make one unquestioned lead. There's just something off about it, but when I play it I will give it a fair shake.
I'm not specifically looking for something 16-bit. I'm looking for a new non-gross turnbased RPG. The reason I had mentioned 2D is that that often gives tight map design compared to getting disorientated or enormous empty maps. I've got plenty to choose from if I'm looking for an Action RPG. Those are everywhere on every system. I miss turn based battle systems.
I have played those. I have probably played more JRPGs than most of the board (other than Aeana). I don't know how to express this better. I only dropped off of turn based JRPGs since they got gross almost uniformly.
I don't mean to be rude, but I'm not playing something with a female character looking like that. If you're ok with it, that's cool; I am not. I have absolutely zero tolerance. It bothers me deeply, and I'm tired of having to "put up" with things that punch me in the face just to be able to play a game. I don't have time for that shit anymore.
Turtle I'm fine with difficult games, esp RPGs. I routinely beat RPGs with half the levels that guides or other people recommend or do. I always tend to play with the mechanics as I had mentioned to you about Ara Fell and that one bounty I took down super early with only two characters and figuring out a method to cheese it (Reflect is hella powerful in that game people).
The problem with difficulty settings in RPGs, is that most companies don't have one whit of an idea of how that should be done. Most just up enemy HP and attack and call it a day: essentially making them damage sponges which isn't particularly challenging and is really fucking boring. If a game dev actually does hand balance an RPG on multiple difficulty levels that's another thing.
I think we've all learned something here from this thread. I know I have.
Don't play JRPGs.
Don't play JRPGs.
Which is why I want to recommend to you Gabriel Knight 2! You can't go wrong with a FMV adventur...
*BANG* *BANG*
I take it the conditions under which those are made are pretty bad, then.
There is so little budget that the games are almost never remotely skeevy. Because that would require art assets.
Becksworth
Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
It’s not out yet, but I liked the demo of Cris Tales at least. Not sure how soon your wanting your bullshit fix.
I think we've already established that RPG stands for Really Pretty Good.
Oh, yeah, that's not really what I was rolling my eyes at. It was more calling it the """"""""right"""""""""??? way to play the game. The right way for a person to play a game is the way that that person has fun playing it.
Vidfamne
Banned
CSH and such
I think we all understand wordlessly that "I think this is the right way" expresses a degree of modality short of fact, and that coding opinions more strongly than justified can be done simply to counterbalance the expected intrinsic resistance (i.e. habit). Good?
I usually encourage people to try the highest difficulties, because a pattern in my life has been knowing good people who habitually undersold themselves (and I believe that even small, risk-free actions against this habit count for a lot). I'd like to think I'm proposing the opposite of "elitism".
I agree that JBear is justified about his advice being more likely to be good than mine, and can definitely call mine silly all he wants, but we both have one vote no matter how normal we are, right?
What does annoy me, though, is when this "your advice [on how to play] is very silly" coexists in a "space" with "there's no right way to play the game".
I still believe that someone who has played more JRPGs than anyone here, and e.g. through the entirety of Phantasy Star 1, which is far more unforgiving about invisible trapdoors and such iirc (or wandering into unsignalled TARANTULs and OWL BEARs within the first two minutes) ought to consider starting CSH -- if at all -- on Super-Spy.
To me, it appeared astoundingly "balanced" (whether by intent or serendipity) during the first 4-5 chapters; that part was, mechanically, in the running for one of the best RPGs I'd played. For me, this didn't apply to Heroine difficulty, and I also think Heroine didn't prepare me for Super-Spy much at all. I think this is largely because CSH does not have irreversible choices in character builds.
I can accept the argument that, judging by the first battle, Super-Spy was clearly intended as a second-playthrough mode. I just don't think that anything past the first battle vindicates that intent. There are, admittedly, absurd gotchas: the plant on Rhomu that's undefeatable on Super-Spy (only) if you interact with it before picking up the Torch, or a certain inexplicably one-way elevator that may cause you to miss Finn's Veteran Badge, for instance (on any difficulty). Neither is really unusual for a (J)RPG: e.g. Doros in 7th Saga; original FF12 Zodiac Spear.
final statement: I picked Heroine difficulty, believing to the end that the only one above it would not be meant for a first playthrough. I considered that a mistake after finishing Heroine and having played Super-Spy, and thus advise the other way, but maybe both options are flawed by the game's own design and neither player is being silly. If in doubt, I'll accept it's me, the end.
ps. @ JBear: I did write an unpublished walkthrough for Chapters 1-7 on Super-Spy, the spoilered post mentions it again. It just consists of my playthrough notes. You might be surprised how few rigid sequences-to-victory it mentions (in this way, too, the first battle is an outlier) -- which is part of why I liked the early chapters' combat so much.
I usually encourage people to try the highest difficulties, because a pattern in my life has been knowing good people who habitually undersold themselves (and I believe that even small, risk-free actions against this habit count for a lot). I'd like to think I'm proposing the opposite of "elitism".
I agree that JBear is justified about his advice being more likely to be good than mine, and can definitely call mine silly all he wants, but we both have one vote no matter how normal we are, right?
What does annoy me, though, is when this "your advice [on how to play] is very silly" coexists in a "space" with "there's no right way to play the game".
I still believe that someone who has played more JRPGs than anyone here, and e.g. through the entirety of Phantasy Star 1, which is far more unforgiving about invisible trapdoors and such iirc (or wandering into unsignalled TARANTULs and OWL BEARs within the first two minutes) ought to consider starting CSH -- if at all -- on Super-Spy.
To me, it appeared astoundingly "balanced" (whether by intent or serendipity) during the first 4-5 chapters; that part was, mechanically, in the running for one of the best RPGs I'd played. For me, this didn't apply to Heroine difficulty, and I also think Heroine didn't prepare me for Super-Spy much at all. I think this is largely because CSH does not have irreversible choices in character builds.
I can accept the argument that, judging by the first battle, Super-Spy was clearly intended as a second-playthrough mode. I just don't think that anything past the first battle vindicates that intent. There are, admittedly, absurd gotchas: the plant on Rhomu that's undefeatable on Super-Spy (only) if you interact with it before picking up the Torch, or a certain inexplicably one-way elevator that may cause you to miss Finn's Veteran Badge, for instance (on any difficulty). Neither is really unusual for a (J)RPG: e.g. Doros in 7th Saga; original FF12 Zodiac Spear.
final statement: I picked Heroine difficulty, believing to the end that the only one above it would not be meant for a first playthrough. I considered that a mistake after finishing Heroine and having played Super-Spy, and thus advise the other way, but maybe both options are flawed by the game's own design and neither player is being silly. If in doubt, I'll accept it's me, the end.
ps. @ JBear: I did write an unpublished walkthrough for Chapters 1-7 on Super-Spy, the spoilered post mentions it again. It just consists of my playthrough notes. You might be surprised how few rigid sequences-to-victory it mentions (in this way, too, the first battle is an outlier) -- which is part of why I liked the early chapters' combat so much.
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Yeah, this is one of the other aspects that immediately bugged me when I saw the game's cast in their totality, side by side: it's not just that the women present this homogeneous line-up of genre conventions for character design; it's that they're all human or human-coded, with identical body types and facial features. Every non-human is invariably male, even in the cases where there aren't many mammalian biases at play to lean on for that kind of gendered assumption based on visual design trends, but here we still are, missing the chance for monstrous women. That Phantasy Star-looking dude being there in this context reads to me more as an affirmation of the present flaws rather than the opposite--that men are eventually allowed to be diverse within the game's universe as the story's scope broadens, both within their own species and across all races, while women are only allowed to be and present as one thing.
Again, I would appreciate if these kinds of impressions weren't dismissed with trying to characterize them as "bizarre" or as moving some imaginary goalpost for owing media respect and attention for simply existing. Nothing about Cosmic Star Heroine particularly speaks to me in wanting to try it out, but conversely a bad first impression is as legitimate as any other takeaway to be had and in this case, enough for me to go on not feeling like I'm particularly missing anything. It's still worth talking about because the same topic can be interpreted totally differently by others and maybe it'll point them towards something they'll really enjoy even if others don't share that outlook.
I think both are aesthetically fine games with II being especially gorgeous to look at, but I also recommend against specifically the second game if depiction and treatment of women is something you pay attention to and care about in video games. I'm sure a lot of it got edited out in the famously wonky official SNES localization, but having played the fan translation there is just a constant, unending stream of lower and higher-end sexism the game doles out. It's probably one of the most aggressively "RPGs for Boys Only" types of experiences I've ever had in the genre, carrying with it the sort of Akira Toriyama-esque cartoonish mean streak veiled in "gags" via sexual puns and the like. Nina's introduced via a kidnapping plot where the script lingers on the threat of her being confined to sexual slavery; Lin gets treated like an object for her most central role in the narrative; there's a bit where the party enters a slumbering woman's bloodstream to fight off a virus or whatever as microscopic versions of themselves--the procedure is overseen by an old sage type who was explicitly removed from his position for sexual harassment, so of course he only exists in the game to subject every woman he sees to that routine, for presumed entertainment and delight. I believe the afflicted woman is also fat-shamed and ridiculed for her appearance, all casual-like and with no particular objection from anyone. It just never quits with this stuff, and too much of it is rooted in the scenarios themselves to be excused as the whims of a tasteless fan translation--my impression is they presented the game authentic to its spirit, and it is pretty rotten.
I'd assumed the Wild ARMS series fell into "well known enough that it's been covered already", but if not, I'd vote 3. It's damn long, but pretty solid the whole way through. 1, 2 and Alter Code F are also decent, but both the plots and the systems get weaker and stupider when you hit 4.
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
Yeah, I didn't care for how much "power of the human heart" stuff was in AC:F, and the translation for that one is a bit iffy. Wild ARMs 3 is closest to that game, and was indeed very good.
I absolutely adored Wild ARMs 5, though, silly tropes and all.
And yeah, probably already covered, but I had to mention it since I'm just coming off of finishing it (even dredging up a 20+ hour save game from years ago to do it!).
I absolutely adored Wild ARMs 5, though, silly tropes and all.
And yeah, probably already covered, but I had to mention it since I'm just coming off of finishing it (even dredging up a 20+ hour save game from years ago to do it!).
Becksworth
Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
FYI, if anyone is looking for TRUE JRPG BULLSHIT, the RPG Maker MV Player is now available on the eShop for free.
The last JRPG I really liked was The Last Story on Wii, but it's not turn based.
Anyone here familiar with JRPGs on Sega consoles? The only ones I've spent much time with that meet Gaer's requirements are Lunar on Sega CD and Albert Odyssey on Saturn.
Anybody, were the JRPGs on the Turbografx mini translated into English?
Anyone here familiar with JRPGs on Sega consoles? The only ones I've spent much time with that meet Gaer's requirements are Lunar on Sega CD and Albert Odyssey on Saturn.
Anybody, were the JRPGs on the Turbografx mini translated into English?
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
If they weren't already translated, nope.
Off topic a bit, but if any cool indies that buck the usual jRPG traditions are made with or playable via this I would be interested in hearing about them.
One of the really cool things about the RPG Maker programs is the horror games, puzzle games, walking sims, and other things that forego standard turn-based combat in favor of other forms of expression with the tools available.
As far as Sega goes, there's Phantasy Star IV is the only PS I've played, but it's got a lot of sci-fi in it, I can't remember if that was a disqualifier. The others of the series are much the same iirc. There was Panzer Dragoon Saga, too? There's Shining Force but that's a strategy rpg, so I don't remember if that counts under the guidelines either. There's a reason I haven't bothered making many or any recommendations in this thread.
