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Games that lose something on an emulator

DANoWAR

DANoWAR

Administrator
Technical Admin
(Wheeee!)
Hello everyone!

I've just read about something in the 108 RPGs thread that made me go "Huh..."

If I understand it right, in Wild Arms 3, every time you turn on the game or when you load a save game you may see a different video depending on how far you are in the game.

This made me wonder: What games are there that have "content" that can get overlooked when playing the game in an emulator?

My standard method to play emulated games is to load the image/rom/whatever and then load the last save state. And when I quit I just save state and turn it off.

So I only go through the start screen etc once. I never use the real save system. It's like playing the game in one sitting.

Are there games where you don't get to see stuff this way?
 
I have definitely played games in the way you describe, but for whatever reason (age and stubbornness would be my guesses) I don’t trust save states in emulators for anything more recent than 16-bit systems and don’t tend to use them.

When I first played Final Fantast II (the fourth one I mean), the emulator I used couldn’t handle transparency so in order to navigate the Mist Cave I had to turn off a graphical layer which is not I think what you’re asking but is something I missed because of emulating.
 
When I first played Final Fantasy I on an emulator, I just used save states instead of saving. After a while, I wanted to turn the speed up, but I couldn't find the controls to do so, and I assumed that that speed you set when you started the game was what you were stuck with for the whole playthrough.

Years later, I realized that you could set the speed whenever you were resuming a saved game...

I know there are some games that actually trigger events when you save, such as FF6 and Shadow's dreams. You'd totally miss those if you never used the in-game saves.
 
This isn't exactly the same as what you're asking, but for a long time ZSNES famously did a terrible job of emulating the SPC7000, so anyone who used it back in the day was listening to inaccurate/out of tune sound effects and music. I'm not sure if it ever got fixed, to be honest.
 
Yimothy said:
I have definitely played games in the way you describe, but for whatever reason (age and stubbornness would be my guesses) I don’t trust save states in emulators for anything more recent than 16-bit systems and don’t tend to use them.
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Same. I always try to play "honest" when possible, especially for long games like an RPG, where I could lose hours of progress if I fast-finger the wrong save state key or whatever. No thanks.

Anyway, again, not really in the spirit of the question, but Mother 3 is miserable in an emulator, because I've never been able to successfully configure one to make the rhythm combat feel anything other than terrible. Repro cart on hardware all the way.
 
[yelling through a time portal from the year 2001] THE ABILITY TO SEE WHAT I'M FUCKING DOING ON THE GHOST SHIP IN FF5
 
When using an emulator to play RPGs I tend to use both save states and the in-game save system.
 
When I'm emulating, I always primarily use the in-game save system. Rewind and savestates are strictly for cheating purposes. I think that most singleplayer games are enhanced by having the option to cheat, though there are some where it's better if you have to take your lumps and git gud.

Fast-forward, too, can encourage gameplay styles that were too inconvenient to take seriously on original hardware. Degenerate strategies can be a thrill in their own right, depending on what you're trying to get out of it.

Emulation places more responsibility on the player to know what kind of experience they want, because it is inherently a form of modification. Even simple things like running a 3D game at a different resolution or aspect ratio, or switching between a handheld and stationary form factor, can in some cases drastically alter the impact of the game - for better or for worse. In general, I try to be on the lookout for opportunities for emulated games to gain something rather than lose something, but I didn't have that discipline when I was young.
 
Torzelbaum said:
When using an emulator to play RPGs I tend to use both save states and the in-game save system.
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This is a something I learned years ago and haven’t really questioned since so it might be wrong, but doesn’t loading a save state overwrite the in-game save as well? Maybe this relates to my not using save states for 32 bits and up.

Emulators and save states tend to take the challenge out if you let them. Whether that’s losing or gaining something depends, I guess. Sometimes it’s the only way to reach stage five, but on the other hand I have gotten a lot of satisfaction out of really learning a game on hardware and finishing it on its own terms.
 
I don't think save states/rewind erase the challenge as much as people think they do. You still have to make it through a segment with your own skill, it's just that if you die you don't have to also replay how ever many other segments from beforehand that you already completed. I do not have time to replay an entire level over and over again until I can beat the boss.
 
I haven't emulated in a long time; except for official collections on modern consoles. I'm sure emulators have gotten better.

I feel like most games lose something in emulation. The timing may be slightly off when emulating and not playing with the original controller loses something.
 
Yimothy said:
This is a something I learned years ago and haven’t really questioned since so it might be wrong, but doesn’t loading a save state overwrite the in-game save as well? Maybe this relates to my not using save states for 32 bits and up.
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Kind of. A save state will save the state of your game exactly as it is, which includes your in-game save files. Let's say you play for an hour and then make an in-game save and a save state. You play for another hour, make an in-game save, and then accidentally load your save state: it brings your game back to the point where you played for an hour and saved for the first time. That following hour of playtime effectively never happened since you've loaded back to before you made the second in-game save.
 
Issun said:
I don't think save states/rewind erase the challenge as much as people think they do. You still have to make it through a segment with your own skill, it's just that if you die you don't have to also replay how ever many other segments from beforehand that you already completed. I do not have time to replay an entire level over and over again until I can beat the boss.
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I definitely play this way more often than not, and it’s sort of true that it doesn’t remove challenge so much as repetition, but I still think you don’t get the same experience this way. I remember playing SMS R-Type on hardware, which has an infinite continues cheat but no level select or anything like that. When I started out getting to the fourth level was a major achievement and the boss of that stage was impossible. Once I got better at it, losing a life before the fourth level was a disappointment and the fourth boss was barely a speedbump. The seventh stage was absolute murder, particularly the recovery from dying in the second half because you’re then playing with no powerups until you build them up again. If I’d had access to save states, I definitely would have used one at the start of stage 7 so I’d have the option to go back there and build up my powerups in the first half before taking on the second, and I probably would have just used one near the checkpoint to save going through the start again, and maybe again at the boss. Instead, I developed my recovery method over several playthroughs (of stages I would have beaten once and never seen again with save states) and who knows how many continues until I finally managed to get through to stage 8, at which point I was faced with the knowledge that if I didn’t beat the game on this attempt I’d have to get through stage seven again.

T5IuQKM.jpeg


And that’s why I have this photo on my phone, remember the game in detail all these years later, and maybe why I consider it a very fine game. SMS Sagaia, in contrast, I save stated through and barely remember. It might be a good game, but we just don’t know. I think save states don’t have to detract in this way, but for me once I start using them it’s hard to stop.
 
The games in ufo50 don't have savestates, so you beat them in one go, or not (well, the ones that don't have actual saves). It definitely showed me, how different the experience is, when I can't just save whenever I want. Even if it's just between levels. I would have beaten those games way too fast, having less fun with them. Actually getting better at them, being able to beat one in one go, was way more rewarding, than using savestates between stages could have ever been.

I get the argument, that you just don't want to repeat stuff you already did. Depending on the game and situation, I certainly agree. But it's also, definitely, a different experience, and might be worth having.
 
Another aspect of emulation is that they let you change the form factor of any game.

In days of yore, that usually meant turning console and handheld games into PC games, which wasn't always an improvement! PC-compatible controllers were very bad when I was a kid, and console action games are a poor fit for keyboard controls. And while I think the impact is often overstated, running a game designed for a 480i CRT display on a crisp high-resolution LCD screen is a distortion, which can be compensated for only with a proactive decision about how you want it to look. And sitting at a desk incurs a different mentality than watching a TV across a room or carrying a handheld with you wherever you go.

On the other hand, in this modern era of wonders we have a lot more options. Third-party (or jailbroken) handhelds and the universality of HDMI mean that consumer-grade hardware can emulate a game in any form factor you want: the desk, the couch, the hand (in all shapes and sizes), or even the VR headset. When they ported SNES9x to the PSP in 2006 (or was it 2005?), I was amazed to discover that portability makes every 16-bit RPG better. Meanwhile, plenty of handheld action games become noticeably more pleasant to control when you can use a full-size controller and stretch out your back when you're locked in.

Side note: controllers are amazing now. Kids these days don't know how good they have it.

However, game for the DS and 3DS are usually almost always best in their native form factor, just because it's so singular. Finding a comfortable way to play them on something with a single, usually wide and non-touch, screen is something that needs custom setup on a per-game basis, if it's even possible. When I try to emulate a DS game I end up spending more time tinkering with the layout than actually playing it.
 
I and a friend were playing through zelda 2 last night and we managed to erase an hour of progress twice because my exit emulator combo is mapped to start + select and you press those buttons right after each other a lot in that game. I guess there is a reason those options to make you confirm when you exit and automatically drop a save state for good measure exist.
 
lincolnic said:
Kind of. A save state will save the state of your game exactly as it is, which includes your in-game save files. Let's say you play for an hour and then make an in-game save and a save state. You play for another hour, make an in-game save, and then accidentally load your save state: it brings your game back to the point where you played for an hour and saved for the first time. That following hour of playtime effectively never happened since you've loaded back to before you made the second in-game save.
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This reminds me of another problem -- games that change behavior once you've beaten them. If your emulator doesn't have a soft reset function and the game requires you to reset the system after you beat it, your cleared game state may be stuck at "The End" forever because there is no way to start over without resetting.

Most sensible emulators have accounted for this, but there was a big recent one that gave me problems with this. I think it was the SNES Mini?
 
otakujeb said:
This reminds me of another problem -- games that change behavior once you've beaten them. If your emulator doesn't have a soft reset function and the game requires you to reset the system after you beat it, your cleared game state may be stuck at "The End" forever because there is no way to start over without resetting.

Most sensible emulators have accounted for this, but there was a big recent one that gave me problems with this. I think it was the SNES Mini?
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This is one of the many reasons NSO's N64 emulator is so mediocre. No Controller Pak support, which means you can't actually "save" your game in anything that requires it. Can't save in Rayman 2, can't save your ghosts in Mario Kart 64. The save state thing is just such a lazy fix coming from the same company that made the console!

I haven't kept up with Nintendo DS/3DS emulation that much. Have they come up with a way to replicate puzzles from games like Trace Memory and Spirit Tracks where you needed to fold the actual DS slightly to have the top screen reflect something on the bottom one?

Even if you get a controller setup with a spinner or something, it's pretty hard to replicate the real experience of Wario Ware Twisted (and things like that) outside of a GBA.

You'd have to have a pretty kickass driving and light gun set-up on a home PC to play Lucky & Wild with your friend.
 
Bongo said:
When I'm emulating, I always primarily use the in-game save system. Rewind and savestates are strictly for cheating purposes. I think that most singleplayer games are enhanced by having the option to cheat, though there are some where it's better if you have to take your lumps and git gud.

Fast-forward, too, can encourage gameplay styles that were too inconvenient to take seriously on original hardware. Degenerate strategies can be a thrill in their own right, depending on what you're trying to get out of it.

Emulation places more responsibility on the player to know what kind of experience they want, because it is inherently a form of modification. Even simple things like running a 3D game at a different resolution or aspect ratio, or switching between a handheld and stationary form factor, can in some cases drastically alter the impact of the game - for better or for worse. In general, I try to be on the lookout for opportunities for emulated games to gain something rather than lose something, but I didn't have that discipline when I was young.
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I know it's gauche to just say "this", but... "this". In the OP example I'd argue nothing is lost because you can still just boot the game as normal if you want to. That's no shade on you playing how you want to play; just that you can absolutely access the feature you are describing.

The obvious answers would be games like Wario Ware Twisted, where there's some kind of hardware in the cartridge. I think Drill Dozer's rumble can be emulated but the experience of Wario Ware Twisted - while there are romhacks to enable traditional controls - is totally compromised on an emulator.
 
Do you not use savestates when you want to stop playing and resume later?

(edit) test
 
OK there seems to have been a glitch that ate some of my post above! I am not mad about this because with hindsight I was kind of arguing with a strawman anyway, so... hooray!

Just to clarify, @Mogri, yes, I absolutely do that. I use savestates for that and other purposes, ditto rewind. I think people should just do what they want to enjoy their games, it's whatever.
 
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Emulating games on a PC is a easy way for them to lose my attention, barring the occasional miracle.
 
Man, many years ago I played Super Metroid on a keyboard. That was an experience, but I managed it. Did it lose something? Or did FF4, which I also emulated? I dunno, maybe something ineffable about the experience. But it reminds me of books vs ebooks, where after the fact I find the content stands as its own experience regardless of the exact format I experienced it in. Like I don't think my playthrough of Super Metroid was ultimately harmed by my having used a keyboard, ultimately. But if you use a lot of savestates, or rewind or fast forward a lot, sure, it changes the experience, even if it's just removing repetition.
 
I used to think that emulated games (first) and then digital games (later) created a disconnect in me, like I didn't value them as much as I did physical games. Something about the ephemeral nature of them, I thought, tricked my brain into treating them as lesser.

Later, of course, I realized (A) I'm simply oversaturated with games and the infinite backlog is both spoiling and choice-paralysing; and (B) I'm a Grown-up and even though I still love video games there are priority adjustments that go with that. A facet of that is not necessarily devouring every single game like it's 1989 and I only get two new games a year plus a rental every once in a while.

I simply noticed the effects initially when it came to emulation, as I wasn't purchasing many physical games at the time.
 
There's definitely something that happens in your brain when you go from having no games to having ALL of the games!
 
My relationship with games has changed pretty dramatically since my kids came along. I find that I do still have time for games, but it mostly comes in little 20 minute chunks when I'm on the train or during my lunch breaks. I now play emulated games exclusively, and I am pretty free with using save states and fast forward.

I've found that I am much more likely to play older games and ones that were designed for handhelds because they fit that play pattern. I'm more comfortable starting difficult games because savestates make them less punishing. I'm happier digging into RPGs because I can fast forward grindy parts and I don't have to rely on finding a (sometimes rare) save point to turn them off.

On the other hand, I've been mixing in a lot of UFO50 games, and they don't have emulation features. Barbuta was definitely more difficult because of the lack of savestates, and it was a better experience for not having them.

Am I making my experiences with Castlevania and Dragon Quest worse because I'm not playing them as intended? I'm sure I am to some degree, but I'm still having a lot of fun with them. Life with small kids is difficult and my job is difficult and I'm looking to games for silly escapism right now, so that's how I'm approaching them. Maybe not the intended experience, but still a good experience.
 
Mother 3 was already mentioned, so im going to pick Sonic & Knuckles which is playable in the same way, but there’s something significantly less cool about lock on technology if you’re not actually locking on the cartridges physically. Also, having access to Knuckles in Sonic 2 requires having a separate rom, same with S3&K and Blue Spheres. This is kind of fixed in Mega Collection and the XBLA/Wii VC releases including all combinations, but it’s inconsistent on if they’ll actually support lock on or not.

Similar with swapping random cartridges with s&k for a blue spheres level. It’s possible but far more awkward.

Also, games that rely on different discs like Monster Rancher and Vib Ribbon emulated without a disc drive would be incredibly awkward, even a lot of PS1 emulators dont really support swapping discs on the fly easily.

—
Final Fantasy VIII also shuffles around predetermined rule sets and decks in Triple Triad iirc, but this feature isn’t present if you load savestates or are playing the recent Remastered release, which means you’re stuck with whatever you started with. This can make finishing side quests related to Triple Triad very awkward.
 
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lots of Arcade games are built around having motion & rumble motors in the cabinet, the R360 by SEGA for example.
Sega_R-360_machine.png


but one particularly fun case is Lucky & Wild (though it currently has no official re-release)
being a homage to buddy cop films, it's specifically designed as a car that fits two people with lightguns. requiring the duo to team up on the road.
lucky-wild-17029.jpg
 
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