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FF6 (our third finalest fantasy)

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
It has breached Final Fantasy Mega Thread containment...

I've been replaying Final Fantasy 6 as part of the pixel remaster, and I'm amazed at how much I am enjoying the experience. Final Fantasy 3 (FF6j) has always been my second most favorite RPG of the 16-bit era, but as a result of being second place, I always played Chrono Trigger when I was "in the mood" these past few thirty years or so. As such, I haven't played FF6 in a "dedicated" manner in some time. There is a difference between playing a game on your TV versus an emulator while you're watching Netflix...

Anywho, I am continually amazed by the "little things" that make FF6 great, like how Kefka is practically omnipresent through the first half of the game, continually popping up for practically no reason just to remind you he's a giant ass. I had zero recall of Kefka standing around doing nothing in the Magitek Factory other than stating his evil plans for an audience of exactly no one. Or how there are dedicated sprites for the tube-espers in that same factory. Or how Gau's rage experimentation works surprisingly well with the number of encounters in any given dungeon. You're not just supposed to use Stray every battle!

Regardless, I want to talk about Final Fantasy 6 more, and I know you do, too. Come on. Do it for Tina.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
The fun thing is that Kefka, being Kefka, is totally in character when rambling on about his plans, to no one but himself, simply because he likes listening to himself.

The sad thing for me is that, despite this being my first FF to complete and my favourite for some time, I can't really get into it anymore. Felt it, when replaying it two years ago. It's still a great game. Great, great spritework, and a lot of little character beats.

Honestly, there is too much to talk about. Keep posting stuff, I'll check in and comment.

Oh, I do want to emphasize how much I love the credit scene. It's amazing. I mean the whole flight from Kefkas tower, all the stuff that happens there. And then, in the actual credits, we learn that this is basically a play, where people took on roles. Or, maybe more correct, and opera.

Have you gotten to the opera yet? I never can keep the stuff that happens in this game straight. Whenever you do, tell us what you think. I loved it, when seeing it in a lets play.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Meanwhile, for a long time, I've always gone to Final Fantasy VI when I was in the mood for a 16 bit RPG, so I had a similar reaction to Chrono Trigger a few years ago when I replayed it again for the first time in forever (it's a whole other thread, but I find FF6s battle mechanics and party building far more interesting than Chrono Trigger, so I always want to play FF6). So by the time the Pixel Remaster of VI came out on PC, I'd played it so many times I couldn't muster up the interest to finish the game until like February. I'd played through the GBA version in 2021 twice iirc, including all the bonus content, because I wanted to get the full bestiary and I missed some enemies on my first playthrough. I really enjoyed the bonus dungeon on GBA, the one with the extra dragons with weird, difficult mechanics. The soul dungeon or whatever was pretty dull though.

The opera is overrated and has voice acting in the remaster and that makes it worse than the warbly SNES version. Ultros explicitly stating it is going to take him 5 minutes to push the weight off the ceiling beams followed by a timer coming up with that exact amount of time is hilarious though. I do really like the remastered soundtrack, and the graphics are great too.

But for me, the Sabin-led part of the quest in the World of Balance is the best part of the game. This character you haven't had that long - with the most fun mechanic, Street Fighter inputs for his Blitz commands - is thrust into this weird section of the game where the nature of death in this world is laid out for you (do the tracks for the Phantom Train appear elsewhere in the world? What happened to the train in the World of Ruin?), you find a kid in the wild who is a party member who makes fun of the way Cyan's speech was localized which always struck me as a novel thing for a game to do in the mid 90s (I will always love Mr. Thou, Woolsey did great with FF6), and you see Kefka just being an absolute monster with what he did to Doma. Such a cool section of the game.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
By this game's standards, the Sabin raft scenario plays really well narratively because it pretty much centers all the playable dudes in the game who are varying extents of tolerable, with more interplay than an ensemble approach usually allows.
 

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
For me, FF6 is the point where these games just tip over into being too long for me to want to replay them. I dearly loved FF6 as a child (I have clear memories of playing it the Christmas morning that I received it), but it's just too much of a time commitment for me to want to play it again at this point in my life. I have played every previous FF game more than once (some of them many more than that), but I've only played FF6 twice (once on SNES and again on PSX), and I've never played any FF after it a second time.

Thinking on it, more broadly, this is probably true of RPGs as a whole: FF6 for me represents the point where the entire genre becomes too intimidatingly long for me to revisit.
 

4-So

Spicy
I'm playing through this as well. Just got to the Floating Continent.

It seems to be the one PR title that got the most love, as far as I can tell. All the little details, like neon signs in Zozo, the music on the Veldt, or the spell effects being redone.

I'm about 12 and half hours into the game already. I'm always amazed when I revist these early FF games how short they actually are.
 

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
lol, I promise you that we'd likely be playing it very differently. My usual way to estimate how long it will take me to finish a game is to go to howlongtobeat.com, look at the average Completionist time, and then double it.
 

Sarcasmorator

Same as I ever was
(He/him)
I think of most older FFs as 30-ish hours. Probably will be faster this time around because I'll be using the XP boost to avoid grinding.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
lol, I promise you that we'd likely be playing it very differently. My usual way to estimate how long it will take me to finish a game is to go to howlongtobeat.com, look at the average Completionist time, and then double it.
I ask not out of criticism but utter fascination: what the heck are you doing the whole time? I know you don't grind, for example, so how the heck are you spending that long in these games? Howlongtobeat.com always seem longer than my playthroughs of various games lol
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
When playing the game two years ago, I probably needed around 20 hours. I didn't count, but even VII isn't a 40 hour game, these early ones are pretty snappy.

Sure, you can spend tons of time, getting all of Gaus rages, making sure never to miss anything at all, which will increase the playtime by a ton (which, I presume, is what would make you need so long, JBear?). But if you just play through the game, you won't need 40 hours. I'd be surprised, if it was more than 20. And that includes exploring the WoR, without too much knowledge. But Main Story - 35 hours? That seems quite inflated.

Found my file: 22 hours. Granted, I had memories of what to do, but they were decades old. If I would play it new, I would probably need 25 hours, maybe? This even includes some dinosaur grinding, because, even after all the sidequests, I was too weak for Kefkas Tower.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
I've finished the first four FFs in a (very long) single sitting each, so for me the expanded game length kicks into gear substantially at V, where even devoting an entire day doesn't cut it anymore... though it's a gradual curve. The pixel remasters are extremely fast, even without any of the new console boosters, so replayers will find them blazingly expedient even if there is no particular intent to hurry.
 

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
I ask not out of criticism but utter fascination: what the heck are you doing the whole time? I know you don't grind, for example, so how the heck are you spending that long in these games? Howlongtobeat.com always seem longer than my playthroughs of various games lol
I just take my time. I think carefully about basically every decision. I am miserable to spectate (just ask my SO). I'm that guy who will completely recompute and rejuggle the gear for an entire party in a game when a get a single new piece of equipment. I will agonize over every new talent point. I will carefully consider and optimize every action, even in trivial combat encounters. Etc, etc.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
I just take my time. I think carefully about basically every decision. I am miserable to spectate (just ask my SO). I'm that guy who will completely recompute and rejuggle the gear for an entire party in a game when a get a single new piece of equipment. I will agonize over every new talent point. I will carefully consider and optimize every action, even in trivial combat encounters. Etc, etc.
Ah, okay. Again, I hope you're not insulted, I just wondered what was going on during those playthroughs. I definitely do not do that stuff, so that explains why we have such wildly different playtimes haha
 

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
I just take my time. I think carefully about basically every decision. I am miserable to spectate (just ask my SO). I'm that guy who will completely recompute and rejuggle the gear for an entire party in a game when a get a single new piece of equipment. I will agonize over every new talent point. I will carefully consider and optimize every action, even in trivial combat encounters. Etc, etc.
I can understand this in more complex RPGs, but what kind of decisions are there to agonize over in FF6 specifically? Like there's so many different "optimal" actions to take in battle because everything in this game is overpowered, for example.
 

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
Well now you're talking about a low-level run where you run away from random battles and fight Atma Weapon at like level 12.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
In the console versions of the Pixel Remaster, you can just turn EXP gain off until you have the optimal espers.

This game has excellent adventure scenarios culminating in the perfect activity to do in an RPG (get the band back together), and it all goes by quick. Aesthetically iconic, too.
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
-Points to the audience
"Okay! I need a place, and a profession!"
-Makes an exaggerated "listening" motion with my hand and ear
"I think I heard 'opera' and...'magitek general'? Sounds good!"

Full confession: like Kazin, I have never much cared for the opera of Final Fantasy 6. I feel like I've been told, literally since its release, that Final Fantasy 6's opera is the lynchpin of the game, and the central set piece of the whole enterprise. And... dang... it has just never clicked for me. A handful of notes...

1. This game released when I was 12 or so. I remember being 12 and playing this game, so damn space and time if I was somehow younger or older at that point. And when I was 12, for reasons I do not immediately recall, I thought musicals were objectively bad. Again, no idea where this idea came from (though I have a sneaking suspicion that my mother's love of Andrew Lloyd Webber was involved), but I was of the belief that if someone burst into song, the writers/producers/whatever were "reaching", and this was their last attempt at holding the audience's attention. It was a weirdly specific belief for a 12 year old, but these things happen. So I distinctly recall being betrayed when I discovered (in the theater!) that The Nightmare Before Christmas was a musical, and similarly being something like upset at the opera of Final Fantasy 6. I was convinced that my favorite medium was now going to be all singing, all dancing, and I would be stuck on the outside of what was my only safe digital outlet. There are bad things coming!
Mind you, this was all BS from top to bottom. I eventually got over my distaste for the concept of musicals (mostly thanks to Sondheim), gaming and Final Fantasy did not become the last bastion of singing, and, amusingly enough, I'm pretty sure my favorite "forgotten" genre now is the narrative-based rhythm game (Gitaroo-Man! PaRappa! We need you now more than ever). Typing out this entire paragraph has been doubly amusing since devoting 1,000,000,000 hours of the last few months to THEATRHYTHM FINAL BAR LINE, which... ya know. You can see the irony!
But my point is that, right from the beginning, this opera left a bad impression on my young brain.

2. Similarly, there is and always has been some broken part of my brain that is convinced I am going to be asked to be Tom Cruise sometime within the next five minutes. I blame the dang teevee, but I have always had a pathological fear of being The Best Actor Ever, but somehow flubbing/forgetting my lines. This is partially due to the fact that I have a lousy memory for objective facts (ask me to recite multiplication tables and I will punch you), and partially because of some internal fear that I could be really successful if I only could do this one thing. Whatever. Over the course of the last nearly thirty years since Final Fantasy 6, I have been in less than five actual stage productions, starred in a whole one (1) play in high school, and I have never had any particular issue with "memorizing lines". That said, there is still some version of that "underwear dream" floating around my head, and, somehow, memorizing the script for Celes still causes anxiety. I used to have that memorized... but now the Woolsey translation is out of date, and I still have anxiety to this day (well, like two days ago) about disappointing Locke and choosing the wrong text prompt. Oh! And then the part immediately after the singing! In the original, you have to dance with Dario, and I am still not 100% sure what you're supposed to do with the crosspad so it counts as "right". In the next pixel remaster, there is some kind of "press A now" prompt, and I guess you're supposed to press A immediately? Or maybe you're supposed to wait? I just know I screwed it up on my first go on this playthrough, and I had to repeat the whole sequence from the start with no explanation of exactly what I did wrong.
Point is that the "gameplay" of the opera vexes me to this day for various reasons.

3. I don't get the opera. Is the "fiction" plot of the opera supposed to somehow parallel the "real" plot of the game? The East vs West setting of the opera doesn't seem appropriate; FF6 never has a clear "other" fighting the Empire aside from a loose collection of "Returners". Every other country seems to be turtling in one way or another. The whole "woman waiting for her main to return from war" thing seems weirdly unrelated, too, as I cannot immediately recall any prominent character in FF6 that fits that description, gender flipped or not. Maybe Locke? I mean, something that I latched onto like a baby lizard when I first played FF6 was that it wasn't a typical love story, and the basic concept of Celes and Terra both trying to find if they even could love was a lot more appealing to me as a preteen (a kid that thought the concept of romance was for other, cooler people). Putting "Maria" in this position where she has loved and lost seems at odds with how the majority of the cast probably hasn't even kissed anybody at this point in their lives.
To wit aside:
· Terra: No kissing
· Celes: No kissing
· Edgar: All talk, no kissing
· Sabin: No kissing (his own biceps do not count)
· Banon: Maybe had a wild youth, but I'm not buying it. No kissing
· Gau: Not unless it's an enemy skill
· Cyan: Obviously had some kissing. However always had the weird overarching tone that he watched his entire family die on screen, but is still most often a comic relief character

Locke actually has loved and lost, and the game treats that seriously, but the finale for the opera seems to portray our favorite thief treasure hunter as someone more on the goofy side of things rather than the audience member that resonates with the story.
And once you get past all that, I keep coming back to the idea that The Opera's "seriousness" was the Final Fantasy writers taking the piss out of other, older stories. Look! There is Celes playing the typical part of a damsel in distress, forced to marry another man while her warrior betrothed is lost on the battlefield. And you, audience, know we're better than that, right? Celes is actually a kickass general! All of our women in FF6 are not pining "opera floozies" like Maria, they studied the blade!
As such, I get the impression that the authors either wanted to outline how "our heroines are different", or (less charitable interpretation incoming) take a a comical break to "embarrass" their Strong Female Character by forcing her to be a girly-girl for a scene or two (whether it is because she is "playing" the damsel, or she is doing this whole thing to somehow impress Locke). Either way, the only thing that seems concrete is that there is a "couldn't be more different" parallel between Celes and the character she is being forced to play.
Anyway, TLDR on this point is that I don't get the point, and I never have. Or maybe I do get the point, and I don't like it.
Note that I would still prefer this "version" of the opera to a hypothetical version that would exist if Final Fantasy 6 was somehow released later in the Final Fantasy lineage (like sometime after FF9), when, inevitably, the writers would just make "the opera story" a retelling of Final Fantasy 2 or something.
Additional Note: Don't know if this is intentional on the latter game's part, but it just now occurred to me that this whole scenario reminds me deeply of the bit in Persona 5 where Ann finds her center and becomes a kick ass phantom thief... and the next scenario involves her male teammates practically selling her into a situation where she is being forced to model for a creepy pervert-artist that is obsessed with her "aesthetics". I don't know. I hate the trope of "you're a useful party member, but you're the only one here with breasts, so suck it up, buttercup, time to be exploited".

4. All that said, I come back now to praise the opera. I love the Ultros segment. I love that they set up this whole silly scenario to "trap" Setzer who has already made it known that he is going to interrupt the proceedings, and, somehow, a malevolent octopus gets involved to further muddy the waters. So rarely do stories have the guts to just throw a bunch of random events together into the complete chaos that ensues. Does Setzer even notice that things have gone horribly awry while he is kidnapping "Maria"? If Ultros was successful, and everyone had to spend the rest of the night scraping Celes chunks off the stage, would Setzer kidnap the real Maria some other night? Are the rats in the rafters Ultros minions, or does this opera house have a serious problem with man-sized rodents? Everything ramps up to eleven immediately after the "serious" opera, and I sometimes wonder if that was the "point". Final Fantasy 6 generally takes itself seriously, and the fact that you can "fail" the opera while playing as Celes tells me that the producers wanted you to pay attention for a serious opera here. But maybe that's a feint? Maybe the seriousness is all setup for the punchline of Locke and Ultros becoming impromptu stars at the last minute? Whatever! All I know is that BBQing octopi on the main stage is a highlight.

5. And to say something unerringly positive about the whole affair: despite not personally liking it, I acknowledge that the opera scene is where Final Fantasy became Final Fantasy. I'm only halfway through Final Fantasy 6 PIxel Remaster, but I have been reminded often of how Final Fantasy 6 is a product of its time. And a significant part of that? Final Fantasy 6 is not comfortable when it isn't a "battle game".
Recall "The Emperor's Feast". Something I always remember more fondly than the Opera is the bit after the Espers wreck Vector, and the Returners are invited to a dinner with Emperor Gestahl. This is fun and unprecedented in an RPG of the time, because, prior to Final Fantasy 6, if you had a problem with the evil emperor, you hit him with swords until he became a God of Hell. The concept that you are going to have a diplomatic meeting with a warring country is great, particularly when half your party seems to be kings and fallen kingdom survivors (And Gau. Don't take him to dinner). The results of the dinner are organic with the plot (South Figaro and Doma are almost always liberated as a diplomatic showing of good faith), and you can even earn extra fun items if the Emperor "likes you" by the end. However, the whole sequence is super-duper videogame: before the dinner, you are asked to run around the castle and talk to soldiers, occasionally instigating fights. Once you are at dinner, you get a whole three questions in, and Gestahl asks if you want to take a break. If you take a breather, you can instigate another series of fights. And it's a sign of the times that, basically, the producers only had full confidence that you were playing this game to engage with the (awesome) FF battle system, and the idea of "talking" through an event was probably going to be ignored. This is in stark contrast to modern game design, where your average Persona title involves about seventeen hours of advancing conversations before your first battle, and dungeons are punctuated with opportunities to enjoy wannabe dating sims. Mind you, I'm just punching down to Persona again here, but Final Fantasy itself has gotten into a routine wherein you can go long swaths of game without what was considered "the game" back in 1994. And that wouldn't be possible on the SNES just due to a lack of confidence that was earned here at the opera house. There is audience participation, and the timed battle event immediately thereafter, but the opera scenes are basically just "sit back and watch this part", and that somehow became one of the most iconic parts of this game (if not the genre as a whole). For better or worse, I don't see the deep tales of Xenosaga or Final Fantasy 10 without the confidence earned here in Final Fantasy 6. There is a reason the characters of FF6 are shallow compared to their metaphorical descendants, and its because every character-rich scene was only ever ten seconds away from a fight with lizard-chickens. The confidence to get away from an RPG just being a battle-delivery service started with Celes in a fancy dress.

...

Cough

...

So, yeah, there's my simple answer on "Have you gotten to the opera yet?"
 
The weirdest thing about the opera to me is: who the heck is Maria? Are we really supposed to believe that there's this woman who just happens to look exactly like the Empire's magically engineered super-soldier, and there's no connection between them? It seems like a setup for something, like maybe Celes had a twin sister and they were separated when she got taken away to the army. But there's no payoff, and we never actually see Maria. There's a painting in Owzer's house of Celes' opera sprite, which is probably supposed to be Maria, but nobody comments on it. Maybe Celes had a double life as "Maria" and she wasn't imprisoned for trying to sabotage the Empire's conquest of Figaro, but because Gestahl really hates the performing arts. Maybe all the NPCs who share the same sprites really are supposed to look the same, and it's just a normal thing in this world. Maybe Maria is Gogo. Who knows?
 

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
Either way, the only thing that seems concrete is that there is a "couldn't be more different" parallel between Celes and the character she is being forced to play.
This has always been my interpretation of "the point" of the opera. It was never meant to be anything deeper than that.
 

4-So

Spicy
I wasn't much older than you when I played FF6 for the first time - 14 yo in 1994 when the game was released - and while I remember the opera as being an important setpiece and something I hadn't encountered in any RPG at that point, I don't recall thinking it was the Best Thing Ever. It has never struck me as having a "point" outside of what it is: spectacle. Nothing more, nothing less. (I think that Modern Nerd Brain causes people - and I don't know if anyone here is doing this, I'm just thinking out loud - to reach for deeper meaning, that something is being said, when sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.) For it's worth, I see the inclusion of Ultros and his shenanigans as the developers adding levity after the player experiences this heavy-for-1994 drama re: the actual opera performance.

For me, the defining moment - let's call it that - in FF6 happens on the Floating Continent after Kefka moves the statues. The actual destruction of the world was mind-blowing at the time. Prior to that, the good guys always save the day, right? Of course they do. That's how these things work. The good guys always thwart the bad guys. And while that's what they end up doing ultimately, the idea that the Bad Guy won, in a big way, even if it was a temporary win, was profound (again, for a video game in 1994.) There may have been other games that did this but I had never come across it before it still remains the standout moment for me.

And speaking of that moment, I went from the Floating Continent to right outside Darill's Tomb last night. I remember that whole sequence of events taking much longer as a kid but it probably took me two hours, maybe? The game continues to be far more brisk than I remember. I think I have less the 15 hours on the clock and I'm not using the EXP boost.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
So here's the thing about the opera scene: what was mind-blowing about it in 1994 was that this scene that would have been the apex of spectacle in any other game, multimedia rather than leaning heavily on one technological or aesthetic trick - but rather than make that one impressive interdisciplinary novelty the entire point of the game, they just threw it out there as one event among many. They made it look easy.

The opera was a demonstration of computer artistry in a mass-market consumer product, at a time when computer art was the hottest and freshest idea on the planet. This is a sentiment that evolved into the mid-00s gaming obsession with demonstrating that Games Could Be Art while pointedly avoiding interrogating the subject matter of that art, since it was just an example, a placeholder for any other meaningful thing.

Maria is the star of the opera. The music, script, and costumes of the opera are placeholders, generic, irrelevant - they represent the concept of "opera." They don't even bother to differentiate the name of the character from that of her performer. But all the emphasis, including Setzer's dissolute obsession, is on Maria. In other words, it's putting the focus entirely onto the performance. You as the player are graded on how skillfully you control Celes as she performs the role of Maria (both the actress and the character). This unseen Maria character personifies the ideal of that skillful performance, since her fame is based on how well she sings whatever lines she is given.

In other words, the opera itself is arbitrary. What matters is how well Maria - which is to say, Celes - which is to say, Final Fantasy VI - which is to say, video games - can "do an opera."

That kind of thinking doesn't really have much impact any more. We've moved past being impressed that games can talk and started paying attention to what they're saying instead. (In that regard, the opera scene was still ahead of its time, as the metatextual sophistication of the whole sitcom setup of the villain trying to interfere with the story-within-a-story still totally holds up.) The 90s were a long time ago. But that's the historical context.

But, hearing a through-composed piece by Nobuo Uematsu is always a delight.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
I like the opera just because it creates a great mood. Thanks to the music, but also the staging, typical(?) opera script, it just feels good to me. And I really like the new interpretation in the pixel remaster.

Would be nice, if it was a mini version of the regular story, but even without, it has this specific mood that I enjoy.

Also, it's an opera within an opera (play?), which is a fun idea.
 
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