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Fantasy Who Would Win

Johnny Unusual

(He/Him)
Come one come all to the third Who Would Win (AKA Thunderdome Classic).



If you aren’t familiar, it’s a version of the classic “let’s debate about who would win a fight”. The idea is we’ve selected a bunch of fictional characters and we discuss that, in facing each other, who would win. But don’t get to focused on “who is more physically capable”. Because to me, character is important. How would characters who are in a confrontation deal with it. Maybe they fight. Maybe they play a game. Maybe it’s a battle of wits. Maybe it’s social negotiating. I want you to consider that if these characters were put into a conflict, how would they handle it and most important, make an argument about who would come out of that situation “winning”. I do want YOU to decide what you consider a win lost condition. Without going into too much detail, think about these characters wind up in a situation encountering each other. Maybe they meet in the road going in different directions.

This is a double elimination match so everyone gets a second chance (well, until the last fight). Last time was a little more loosey goosey (and thankfully no one complained) but this time I’m trying Challonge’s double elimination bracket maker. Basically losers are going to go into their own bracket and the last survivor of that one will face the top ranked unbeaten champ.

The theme for this one is characters from Fantasy fiction. Each 2 matches will last 6 days. Let’s begin.

Prelim
Match 1


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Mog

Source: Final Fantasy VI

Mog is a moogle, a furry white little creature, most of which only say “Kupo”. But unlike most moogles, Mog gained the ability to talk (though he does punctuate his sentences with “kupo”. He first appeared protecting the thief Locke and the former tool of the evil Gestahl Empire Terra from the forces of the empire (much to both of their surprise). Later, he joined the Returners, the heroic rebel group that Locke and Terra were a part of. It seems the esper (a powerful spirit) Ramuh came to him in a dream and asked him to join the Returners.

Mog considered himself meek at first but when asked to join the Returners, bravely went forward, wanting to protect Terra and her friends. He is loyal and friendly but also often sarcastic. Mog has the strange ability to Dance and perform attacks based on places he’s been. For example, using the power of the Forest Nocturne, he can heal friends and summon animals to attack. In the game players often don’t get decide on the effects, suggesting Mog himself might have a fantastic power he doesn’t have full control over.

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Locke Lamora

Source: Gentleman Bastard

Locke is a thief, conman and false facer. Born an orphan, Locke was adopted by Father Chains, a master con man, and taught in the art of deception and trickery, as well as fine culture. He is inducted into the Gentlemen Bastards, a gang of thieves who break the Secret Peace, the agreement of all criminal gangs who run society that keeps war from breaking out between them. Eventually Locke becomes the leader of the Gentlemen Bastards, acting as a mentor to the youngest member Bug.

Locke has a relatively thin frame, disadvantageous when the situation requires physical combat. But he more than makes up for it in terms of being able to avoid getting caught, even by the nobility and fellow criminals, in part due to his cleverness and charisma and also due to his deep well of knowledge of etiquette. He is also known for his silver tongue, which is often loaded with pointed wit. He is more assertive and bold than some thieves and can be stubborn to an extent that those caught in his line of sight in his plans will often end up very rueful.

@Olli might have to explain more. I don’t know if he has any other relevant skills, powers or qualities that need to be taken into account for this meet up.



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Balthier

Source: Final Fantasy XII

The son of a imperial scientist, Balthier had a falling out with his father and after stealing an airship took to a life of piracy. He travels the world with his close friend Fran and the two hunt for treasure across the globe. Eventually during one caper, he eventually fell in with the hero Vaan. He seems to think of himself as the main character of everyone’s story and is dashing and cunning but benevolent. He wields a rifle and has abilities such as Fires of War and Element of Treachery.


@Kirin is free to fill in any other relevant information.



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Father Gascoigne

Source: Bloodborne

Father Gascoigne is a hunter who originated from a foreign land. Once a member of the Healing Church, he was teamed with another hunter, Henryk, who was “tragically old”. The two made a strong team and Gascoigne eventually made a family. However, his work made him more “blood drunk”, and he eventually began to forget his family. Eventually he went so mad with blood lust, he became a beast-like creature and killed his family, taking up residence in Tomb of Oedon.

Father Gascoigne battles with both a Hunter Axe and a modified Hunter Pistol. Pushed to the brink he can also turn into a lethal wolflike creature who rends the flesh of his enemies. He is weak to a music box that has ties to his past but it is unlikely anyone will have access to it in this match (with the exception of someone capable of summoning objects or similar magic effects).

I’m not familiar with this game so @Issun is free to add more relevant details.
 
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Lamora seems cunning but I don't think he'd stand a chance against the SLAM dancing moogle.

The gunfight might be interesting and Balthier has access to some powerful magicks but it takes time to get them off and Gascoigne is ruthless and he is fast.
 
Im really only familiar woth one of these characters.

I feel like Mog is strong but naive, meaning he's going to fall for Locke's tricks and lose all his money.

The second one is trickier. The funny thing is in the Final Fantasy narratives the characters seem somewhat grounded but in the fights everyone is summoning huge firestorms and such. I have no doubt Father Gasciogne is strong but a Final Fantasy dude tends to fight wildly strong threat by the end of the game. So Balthier.
 
I feel like Mog is strong but naive, meaning he's going to fall for Locke's tricks and lose all his money.
The in-game text describes Mog as a "Human-loving, fast-talking, street-smart, SLAM-dancing Moogle". So I don't think Mog is really all that naive. But he could be just smart enough to be tricked by someone much smarter / better. So maybe Mr. Lamora is that person but I don't know enough about him to say for sure.

The second one is trickier. The funny thing is in the Final Fantasy narratives the characters seem somewhat grounded but in the fights everyone is summoning huge firestorms and such. I have no doubt Father Gasciogne is strong but a Final Fantasy dude tends to fight wildly strong threat by the end of the game. So Balthier.
Aren't Final Fantasy characters better able to withstand and recover from damage than Bloodborne characters and bosses?
 
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a Yeah I’m assuming Balthier at the top of his game here, which means in addition to guns and cunning, he has access to some extremely powerful magicks. And Gascione there is exactly the kind of aggressive and clearly malignant threat that he wouldn’t hesitate to pull them out against. The sky pirate might take a quick hit before he’s aware of the extent of the threat, but he has some healing magic too, before retaliating with some high power Quickening action. Definitely a sweaty first match, though.

As for the other match, Mog and Locke (not that Locke) would definitely have some fun rounds of fast talk. The question is would the thief talk the moogle into a corner so bad it ends it? Maybe, but of the other hand if Mog felt like he was about to lose something he might switch gears into a dance-off, and that’s a battle he could win.
 
I feel like Mog would come in overconfident based on his experience with Locke (Cole) and thus not be prepared for the lengths a real gentleman thief would go to and get bodied by Locke (Lam).

Unsure on the other. I can see it going either way. I'm giving it to Balthier but it's a close thing.
 
Lamora seems cunning but I don't think he'd stand a chance against the SLAM dancing moogle.

The gunfight might be interesting and Balthier has access to some powerful magicks but it takes time to get them off and Gascoigne is ruthless and he is fast.
+1
 
Mog would most likely win a physical or magicql confrontation, but given enough prep time, Locke could set up an elaborate scheme to scam the moogle out of, I dunno, some Espers maybe.

In a straight shoot-out , Balthier wins.
 
Sorry, I was a day late with this one.

Balthier moves on and Mog and Locke are tied.

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The Luggage

Source: Discworld

The Luggage is a sentient living luggage box capable of traveling on its own (by sprouting a bunch of little legs) and is capable of containing a seemingly infinite amount of materials inside of it. It will follow its owner around, acting as both luggage and body guard, devouring anyone who might threaten its owner. It is made of Sapient Pearwood and is immune to magic attacks. Of course, it being luggage, it does get lost quite often, then tracks down it’s owner from the edge of existence and beyond.

The Luggage does have a personality, described as “half suitcase, half homicidal maniac”. It won’t necessarily kill (or eat, which isn’t always the same) anyone but anything that is in its way or makes even a threatening gesture towards its owner will likely get swallowed up. It is also capable of travelling to places most cannot access, including Hell, Death’s Domain and even the owner’s own mind. It has eaten doors, walls, and ships and there seems to be little it can’t eat.

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Elric of Melniboné

Source: Elric series

Elric is the emperor of a stagnating civilization called Melniboné. Decedent and falling apart, Melniboné once ruled the world and Elric, in reading and studying, realizes the problem with his society and feels loathing towards it, as well as its people’s seemingly willful ignorance to the outside world. Physically weak, Elric uses drugs to maintain strength and vitality. Elric is also an accomplished sorcerer and summoner and has made pacts with various gods and devils.

Elric’s greatest asset is Stormbringer, an ebony sword covered in runes that grants him strength, help and fighting prowess making him no longer need his drug (though he is skilled at using herbs. However, Stormbringer comes with a high cost; it feeds on intelligent beings to maintain it’s power. Worse, even when Elric has good intentions, Stormbringer often brings ruins to all around, a truly cursed sword, and would eventually lead to the downfall of all those Elric holds dear.



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Anansi
Source: Anasi stories

Anansi is a spider who originated in folk tales from the Akan religion. The character is a trickster figure, usually winning his cunning to overcome much more physically imposing and dangerous opponents. Anansi stories feature him as an antihero, and can often be the protagonist and antagonist in the story. Often Anansi’s arrogance or selfishness (or another flaw) kicks off the story that he must resolve. He works as both cautionary tale and aspirational figure, making messes and being clever.

Anansi is implied to just be a regular-sized spider and speaks with the other animals. Some of his adventures include: overcoming the four tasks of the God Nyame in a contest to earn all of Nyame’s stories (now called Spider Stories), trying to steal the world’s wisdom (only to smash the pot he was holding it in due to being mocked by his son), and tying up Tiger. Anansi can be brilliant and foolish in the same story, sometimes being punished, sometimes winning seemingly unwinnable contests.



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Lina Inverse

Source: Slayers

Lina Inverse is a skilled sorceress and fighter, known for defeating bandits to steal their gold. Lina initially studied magic out of an inferiority complex to her sister Luna, a famous knight. Eventually, the rivalry culminated with Luna punishing Lina so horrendously, Lina now panics any time her sister is even mentioned. Lina has earned a large number of nicknames (most of which she hates), and has mastered some of the most powerful of black magic spells such as the powerful Dragon Slave and even more powerful and dangerous Giga Slave (capable of destroying the world if done incorrectly).

Lina is known for willingness to use destructive magic even in small provocations and is gluttonous, greedy and selfish. Despite her many less-savoury attributes, she wants the world to think of her not a scary, destructive sorcerous but a glamourous, cool and dignified hero. While on her off time she prefers to hunt weaker and easier to bully enemies, she has been strong enough to fight some of the world’s most powerful monsters, warriors and sorcerers.
 
The Luggage seems impervious to anything Elric can serve up.

With such an exploitable weakness in the form of her sister, I think Lina loses to Anansi. It's the exact sort of thing he's good at.
 
Hmmm not sure on the first matchup. For the second I don’t how who Slayers is but it seems unlikely whatever she can serve up is able to best Anansi, a literal god.
 
I'm trying to remember - is Luggage immune to all magic or is it just that he can't be damaged by magic? I think Elric might be able to determine the Luggage's nature and not try to fight it directly - instead he might try to reverse summon it or just open a portal to its or closer to its master.

With such an exploitable weakness in the form of her sister, I think Lina loses to Anansi. It's the exact sort of thing he's good at.
But would Anansi even know about that or would he have zero foreknowledge coming into this?

For the second I don’t how who Slayers is but it seems unlikely whatever she can serve up is able to best Anansi, a literal god.
One of Lina's spells uses the power of a God and she has fought god-like beings. I think if she comes out blasting then Anansi won't survive. But if things start out with talking then Lina has quite a few weaknesses which Anansi could exploit there.
 
The Luggage seems impervious to anything Elric can serve up.

With such an exploitable weakness in the form of her sister, I think Lina loses to Anansi. It's the exact sort of thing he's good at.
My thoughts exactly
 
The Luggage is an eldritch horror, sure, but Elric has deals with eldritch gods he can call back on. Nothing good will come of the fight, but the Melnibonean wins.

As for the second fight, I guess Anansi's cunning beats Lina's raw power.
 
The second match is, I feel, a lot closer than people are giving it credit for a few reasons. 1) Lina's actually pretty smart, despite her first instinct being brute force. That's not to say she can't be outsmarted but despite the fact that she's willing to pick on weaker enemies, she also certainly spends a good deal of her time punching up, just like Anansi himself. What's more, Anansi is depicted as being on equal terms with Gods but I feel like while he does some fantastical stuff, he's physically a slightly more amazing spider (he does seem bigger than the average spider, sometimes trying to eat prey animals like sheep). He is usually depicted as punching up as well, which means physically, he rarely compares to most of his enemies like the Gods or various predator animals. What's more, some stories have him failing (usually through an oversight from arrogance such as the time he gathered the world's wisdom in a bag, then dropped it, dispersing it through the Earth) or causing the problem he needs to solve in the first place. That's not to say he doesn't have powers; he has trapped gods in his webs (it seems like he needs to lead them into a trap and can't throw them at people).

But here's the other deal with Anansi. Bets. A lot of his stories involve him making bets to do seemingly impossible tasks and using his wits to win the day. And Lina likes easy money. I think the fight goes one of two ways; Lina sees through the trick and blows up the spider or Lina is tricked into making a bet where Anansi has to fulfill a condition and he succeeds. I think Anansi would really need to be on his toes (what few toes spiders have, at any rate) to overcome Lina's request (Lina herself may drop in some tricky loopholes herself) but Lina can be blinded by her greed if Anansi is offering something she wants. Anansi... I don't think he has money and if he implies he has some, I don't think Lina would buy it. But, while not as tempting, Anansi (famously a glutton), likes meat and might have some to offer. Then we are off to the races.

If Anansi can speak to her pride while still cajoling her into a bet WITHOUT incurring her wrath, I think he could win. But he's really got to be careful here. It's a situation of one wrong move but it's rare for Anansi lose at the end of the day from another's cunning. So I'll give it to Anansi.

I don't know a lot about Elric but this fight seems a lot more in favour of The Luggage, who is definitely one of the heavy hitters of the tournament.

is Luggage immune to all magic or is it just that he can't be damaged by magic?
I've only read one DiscWorld book and the Luggage does not appear. But the word the Discworld wiki uses *twice* is impervious. So perhaps it was misleading when I said "immune to magic attacks". I have no idea if anything else other than the luggage itself can teleport or summon the Luggage. And I'm not very familiar with Elric to know the mechanics of his summoning abilities.
 
the luggage is like some sort of non-giving up school guy but eric has a sword that eats souls so who can say
 
Lina has done a decent amount of god killing, power isn't an issue here. What IS an issue is that we're talking about a trickster god, those sorts thrive in comedy settings. Here too though, there's precedent. She tends to get roped into helping those types out with whatever scheme it is they have going on, humoring them or not wanting to deal with the headache. Anyone trying to play that working relationship into backstabbing though, it's gonna get shot down. Which is going to happen here, since, well, it's our premise. So I figure Lina wins but there's no hard feelings and Anansi shows up again next season for more headgames.
 
And I'm not very familiar with Elric to know the mechanics of his summoning abilities.
Elric's magics are pretty much "I'm the last Emperor of a cruel, world-dominating civilization and the inheritor of a vast number of pacts with supernatural beings; my predecessors have sacrificed countless of souls to make these deals and now I'm cashing one of them in"
 
Note that those pacts don't necessarily give Elric "spells" he can throw around, but they will allow calling the entity in question, who may want something in return for their help. Blood and souls for Arioch, for example.
 
Round 1

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Nanny Ogg

Source: Discworld

Gytha “Nanny” Ogg is a skilled and influential witch in Disc World and within the “Maiden, Mother, Crone” archetypes of witches, she, unlike most witches, has mostly been in the mother role. An experienced mother and midwife, there are few who don’t say good things about her unless they are bad to begin with. Extremely charming, saucy and living life to the fullest, she loves wine, men and song (and food). She’s been married many times and to her husbands has always been faithful but between husbands is never afraid to go on romantic and sexual adventures.

Nanny Ogg is a powerful witch but far greater than her considerable magics is her social skills. Everyone who meets her seems to love her and within 15 minutes, they feel they’ve known her all her life. Nanny Ogg is also known for her deep well of kindness, though is willing to make the tough decisions, a fact that the more stern and more traditionally “witchy” Granny Weatherwax feels makes her more dangerous than most other witches. Though never confirmed, Ogg may be the most powerful of all the witches but is so skilled in fixing things without using magic, she has made it very difficult to find out.

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Mog

Source: Final Fantasy VI

Mog is back! Already! And now he is facing a powerful, charismatic witch. But don’t count him out. He has some wild magic dancing that seems to connect to the Earth itself and he’s not without his own charms. And oh, yeah, he was one of the 16 Returners to go up against an evil clown god and saved the world from it’s destruction, allowing it to have a chance to live again. Way to go, little guy!



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Garnet

Source: Steven Universe

Garnet is a member of the Crystal Gems, a team of alien rebels who fought of the invasion of Earth by their own people. Following a bitter victory, they spent their time catching “monsters” caused by the fall out of the end (or at least temporary halting) of the Gem War. Garnet is the team’s de facto leader following the loss of their original leader Rose Quartz, Garnet appropriately is the most powerful of the team and the wisest, though she herself is not a “perfect” leader. Garnet fights with a pair of gauntlets and can generate huge amounts of electricity in addition to her super strength and super speed. She’s also a skilled fighter, and maintains a cool disposition most of the time, though despite her stoic nature is willing to be silly (though usually in a dry way). Also, despite her stoic nature and wisdom, she can be surprisingly headstrong at times and when a situation vexes her, might respond with hard violence. She also values the power of love as her guiding light and philosophy.

The secret of Garnet’s incredible power and general awesomeness is the fact she’s a fusion. Individual gems can merge and on their home world, the only gems encouraged to fuse are the same, Garnet is a fusion of a Ruby (aggressive, feisty and using heat powers) and a Sapphire (cool, detached, capable of ice powers and seeing the future). The two aren’t just fused, they are lovers, the living embodiment of a healthy queer relationship. There are devices capable of defusing them and they have defused in rare cases when the two parts are in deep disharmony. However, the latter are rather rare cases. Among Garnet’s other strengths is her Future Vision, a power to see the future. Or rather, being able to see many possibilities, even the strange and unexpected, though can only be utilized with whatever information she has (she can come to conclusions that don’t include facts she doesn’t know). However, visions can be mistaken when overlooking certain unexpected actions or events, like a betrayal from a loved one or a surprisingly bold move.

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Benedict

Source: The Chronicles of Amber

Benedict is the tactician of the Royal Family and is considered the greatest swordsman in the world. In fact, he is considered a master of every martial weapon known to man. A prince of the Amber royal family, Benedict has also intentionally removed himself in the power struggle for throne that has raged within his family. Benedict lost his arm in combat with Lintra, the Hellmaid of Chaos (and also his former lover).

I think @Purple will need to help me fill in any other details.
 
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In the battle of Ogg and Mog, I feel like Nanny's empathy and social skills will defuse any conflict and win the little munchkin over. That's a win in my book (and certainly in hers).

I usually would say I don't know enough about one party but unless someone can elaborate on other abilities or capabilities Benedict may have but... Garnet tough. She's gonna kick all kinds of ass before the tourney ends and this is just stop #1.
 
Nanny Ogg is used to dealing with elves (I count Moogles as a type of fairy).

Benedict is not only the best fighter and tactician of the world, he's the best fighter and tactician of all worlds. He's also a prince of Amber, so his mental and physical abilities are way beyond those of regular humans (or chaos demons). Nothing short of perfection (or masterful trickery paired with extreme force) is going to be good enough.
 
Hmm... I'm not familiar with any of these save the obvious one. I'm going to abstain for now.
 
In the battle of Ogg and Mog, I feel like Nanny's empathy and social skills will defuse any conflict and win the little munchkin over. That's a win in my book (and certainly in hers).

I usually would say I don't know enough about one party but unless someone can elaborate on other abilities or capabilities Benedict may have but... Garnet tough. She's gonna kick all kinds of ass before the tourney ends and this is just stop #1.
I'ma go with these ones.
 
Describing the deal with anything in the Amber series is generally going to take more time than just reading the books, sure because a lot of weird stuff happens but also because damn they are the shortest most directly-to-the-point fantasy novels ever written. So the short version is that Benedict is essentially the god of winning fights. Direct combat, he wins. Armies clashing, he wins. Chess, he wins. The weird diceless RPG based on the series uses him as an example for one of he stats, explaining that if you were to somehow become completely invisible and undetectable and attempted to stab him in the back, he would whip around and parry it, not because he can detect you, but because he just thinks through all the angles of ways someone might come at him to recognize that he'd be in a prime spot for some invisible jerk to stab him at that exact moment. Which I'd say was stupid but the only scene in the books where anyone can even get a hit in on him is a weird situation involving someone being completely intangible and knowing how things are going to go due to stable time loop shenanigans and even then it's a real dicey situation. There's also a scene in a later book where someone's trying to work out what to do about some weird freaking monster that was just created to attack him and he just thinks back to Benedict's general purpose advice on identifying weak points of unknown entities, so in this case he'd definitely be immediately aware that you go for the gemstones.

All that said, I'm going against my own nom and giving this one to Garnet because I don't want to be the gal trying to explain how this OP character from something nobody's familiar with gets a clear ambiguous win on everyone the one thing he canonically sucks at, a lot, is dealing with romantic relationships and associated complications, and famously, "Garnet is a relationship!" That's gotta be worth something here.

Meanwhile I have never read a single Discworld book but I have to figure a motherly disposition is a huge disadvantage when dealing with some kind of extra cute magical teddybear thing.
 
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