Welcome to Talking Time's third iteration! If you would like to register for an account, or have already registered but have not yet been confirmed, please read the following:
The CAPTCHA key's answer is "Percy"
Once you've completed the registration process please email us from the email you used for registration at percyreghelper@gmail.com and include the username you used for registration
Once you have completed these steps, Moderation Staff will be able to get your account approved.
kinda wish there was a cut of this movie that had none of the creep shots, because otherwise i really enjoyed it as the finale for the evangelion franchise
i almost said "oh, apparently anno spent the last decade going to therapy, cool" but then i remembered all the creep shots and was like "well, maybe he should spend a little more time with it"
i did like that they acknowledged all of the computer user interfaces in the franchise are complete nonsense meant to be beyond human comprehension.
But with Anno and Kojima I think there is an idea floating around that if you present creep shots in an inappropriate context it is meant to make the viewer feel appropriate shame. (see: Quiet, etc) I've long held this is "the point" of the opening gross of EoE, and it's handled a lot more gracefully in Rebuild (again, if you agree with me it's meant to shame the viewer, not... how most viewers will see it).
Great nature paintings, beautiful nature paintings. Big environmentalist vibes, which I guess have always been kind of present in Rebuild but come off as more upfront here.
Hikari explaining basic pleasantries to Rei 3.33 got old really quickly, though I did generally like the concept of this sequence.
Can you imagine watching this movie with the original ADV Kensuke VA.
The whole segment where they went to the site of the Second Impact to stop Gendo made me really nervous because the constant babble about Proper Nouns and Magic Spears and Rites was the exact opposite of what I wanted from the finale of this franchise - especially the part where Misato and Ritsuko were confronting Gendo on the ship. But thankfully they jumped from that to a Reverse End of Evangelion with Shinji playing Therapist to the other main characters.
I don't know if I think Shinji's character development in the film works, but I do think it works in the context of the franchise as a whole.
The crew of Misato's ship are just.... I don't care! About any of them! Do they even have names besides Toji's sister? Who cares!
I didn't really follow the Kaji and Kaworu stuff - Kaji was working for Kaworu before he died? Ok?
anyway I liked it, it felt like a very cathartic end to the franchise and i hope it stays dead even though i know it won't
Thought this was great. I think the extended sequence where Shinji is depressed is the strongest part, but overall I think everything more or less worked. Of the two largely all new material movies in the rebuild project, I prefer 3.0 for its willingness to just throw you into the deep end, but I understand why this took a more expository approach, even if I felt it was a little too over-explained at times. It's less abstract than EoE was a a finale to the original series, but it maintains that metatextual element in an otherwise relatively more conventional movie. This definitely feels like the most in-narrative way to end the series, relative to how metatextual 25/26 and EoE are.
There were a lot of unexplained proper nouns but I've always felt like those are just texture. Shinji doesn't understand the mechanics of the world, and the viewer doesn't really get to either. They do tell/show you the things you need to know. For example, I don't know or care how the spears work, but it's clear that Ritsuko's science and Misato's sacrifice let Shinji reshape the world with one, which is all that matters to me as a viewer, at least. That's how this series has always rolled, and I enjoy it for that, personally.
I don't know what Anno's intentions are with the creep shots, but if he's trying to shame people the movie is doing a really bad job of it. I remember looking for even a partial camrip of this early on for a while and the majority of the existing clips floating around were just decontextualized nude scenes, so I gave up even trying. My reading is that the movie is successfully trying to titillate, rather than that it's failing to make people feel ashamed. I understand why this would push people away from the series, although personally I just roll my eyes. (Also, I would put the random ass shots in 3.0+1.0 in an entirely separate category from the opening of EoE, which I think works in the context of the movie... Nudity and sexuality in Evangelion are used in a variety of ways, some more successful than others...)
Overall though, warts and all, I think it's amazing that something this weird and with this level of a singular vision could be made and released and be the most commercially successful entry in its franchise history, during a global pandemic.
Overall though, warts and all, I think it's amazing that something this weird and with this level of a singular vision could be made and released and be the most commercially successful entry in its franchise history, during a global pandemic.
I just watched the film, and I found the film to be strikingly un-weird, considering how weird it wanted to be? If that makes any sense? This whole film is imbued with a striking sense of sentimentality towards every single aspect of Evangelion that a lot of the weirdness didn't impact as weird at all but rather as a very clearly carefully planned love note to the original Eva and all of the films. Even more so than all the other rebuild movies put together. And that feeling of sentimentalism hits on multiple layered ways. From the soundtrack consisting almost entirely remixed versions of old iconic tunes from the show or other films, to the film's insistence on carrying forward the general plot beats of episodes 25 & 26/EoE, to the overly overt character narration that cleanly laid out every character's neuroses and motivations that was only really beating-around-the-bush subtext before. Once I realized what was going on, things almost became predictable on where they were going, so when some event or visual flashed on the screen that was intended to be shocking, I mostly met it with, "Oh, that makes sense." Especially concerning specific character fates. I was getting extremely strong Zeta: New Translation vibes from 3+1, where you've got a much older, more wise and gentile and sentimental creator revisiting their most iconic work post-depression, and deciding to give its characters an extremely sentimental redo on their fates to be much more generous to them, almost as if the characters themselves were real people with whom the director was finally facing and saying sorry for abusing so much. Like, we can go down the character list one by one, and each character gets a much happier/fulfilling out at the end of the film:
Shinji: Gets time to decompress, evaluate, and come to terms with what happened to him on his own, and was given a support net the kind he never got the benefit of in the previous Evas. And that led him to be able to enter the final conflict emotionally intact to guide the world to a happier outcome versus having to carry the burden of the Human Instrumentality project while in the middle of an emotional breakdown.
Asuka: Gets to find an identity that isn't defined by her preprogrammed trauma and finds personal agency to act upon for her own sake rather than only existing to be a love interest for the main character. The insinuated relationship between her and Kensuke (same goes for Shinji & Mari) exists primarily to show the characters being allowed to grow up and move on with their lives rather than being trapped by old the paradigms of the old show.
Misato: Gets to have her child with Ryoji, gets to claim victory, got to play a badass ship captain in the vein of Yamato's Capt Okita and go out like a boss rather than the extremely pathetic meltdown she had in EoE.
Rei: The entire extended sequence of Rei living in the village is just the most sentimental thing I've ever seen in a movie, where this character who was designed to be an absent void was given - even if fleeting - her own enriching life to live explore the fundamental basics of what being a real human being is like in ways that every past version of Rei never really came close to enjoying.
And this sentimentality and kindness dug into every last supporting character in the show. Giving Shinji's classmates fulfilling lives and letting them grow up in relative peace. Giving Toji's sister - who was only ever a plot device before - her own agency and feelings. Even Shinji's asshole father got some redemption when the film gave him a chance to just sit down and talk to Shinji and expose his own traumas, and letting him find and reunite with his wife finally. Hell, the film even goes out of its way to show Pen-Pen had a happy ending by showing us the flocks of their progeny.
And this sentimentality works its way into the visuals and form of the film too. From the extended sequences where scenes from the TV show were painstaking recreated despite visually clashing with the film's visual design. Or how one specific CGI fight looked incredibly bad/poorly animated in a vacuum, but it felt like an intentional choice because the film was very obviously trying to recreate a classic tokusatsu feel with regards to having the setting visually act more like miniature buildings on a film set being jostled around by dudes in rubber suits vs trying to depict something as realistic as possible. Or how there were multiple scenes where where the visuals broke down into rough sketches and key frames, despite there being no logistical or thematic reason to do beyond paying homage to the form of the original Eva.
Even the creepshots felt like a sentimental embrasure of just all aspects of what defined Eva, no matter how off-putting those aspects are. There was a weird routineness to them that felt like this has to be here because it was in the other stuff and a big chunk of the fandom is there for it, but the film's most emotionally impactful moments were all absent of cloying oversexuality like they were quarantined away from the things that mattered.
And the visuals, especially of the fight sequences, were as bombastic as they ever were but again in just a weirdly expected and predictable manner. There was just something mathematical about all of it. All of the SFX evoked the feeling of a kaleidoscope. The geometric distortion of the familiar into something trippy but also clean, programmed, and predetermined versus something organic and chaotic. Which, beyond iconoclastic, Kabbalistic artwork it's paying homage to, it felt like a loving embrace of the kinds of fans who come to Eva to watch something they can trip out to on substances to.
I'm still decompressing and sorting out my feelings of the film and will probably think of a lot of stuff to say about it later.
It started off well but was ultimately left with a hollow sense of dissatisfaction.
There was a fun, turn-your-brain off opening action sequence where all you need to care about is the glitz and spectacle and meaningless technobabble flying around. It was great.
Then there was a "slow third" where we got a monumental exploration of the characters' depression, disassociation, desperate struggle for self-actualization and personal worth. It was beautiful* and poignant** and I want a whole series like that.
Then there was an absolutely disastrous litany of pointless one-upmanship where characters went, got you! Nuh-uh, I pull a new plot device out of my butt and now I got you! Nuh-uh, I play my technobabble card and I got you! Nuh-uh, I planned for you to play your card so I got you! Nuh-UH! I shoot you in your goddamn face! Nuh-UH to Evangelion Infinity I planned for that and I just blew your mind didn't I. Then spears and ships and keys and clones out of nowhere and blue goo that doesn't actually do anything and this devastation was not Gaius's intention and look. I know that even back in the late 90s we had interviews stating that the crosses and the religious namedrops were just added for flavor, however much fans have tried to attach significance to them. That's not my complaint. My complaint is when the finale is a series of gotchas that were never set up by a proper narrative structure. I'm already enthralled by the themes of the film, but how can the writer/director expect to keep me enthused at the physical action driven by those themes when there's zero tension to it, and when it is less an extension of the ideological conflict and more an exercise in otaku scriptwriting? I bought it in shows like Gurren Lagann and Kill la Kill because, as exponentially ludicrous as they got, their action scenes were still in full service of the themes, the characters, and the narrative arcs that connected them. I want a cut of this movie that removes everything from the final battle until we get back into the good stuff with Gendo's traincar therapy.
It's also kind of amazing how, even 26 years later, even after all the personal rejection notes Anno put into EoE, this franchise still actively despises women.
* Except the part where Rei was gooped out of nowhere just to further develop Shinji's character. Way to eliminate one whole third of the film's themes without ever going back to it.
** Except the part where Rei was built up and almost given a soul and personality but, as per franchise tradition, all Reis must be killed the instant they grow a personality.
the more i think about it, the more i kind of love how it descends into Proper Noun Nonsense only to pull back up after Mari loudly announces Longinus is a metaphor for Despair, Cassius is a metaphor for Hope, but the final magic spear they've created that will let Shinji change the world is the Spear of Willpower
the more i think about it, the more i kind of love how it descends into Proper Noun Nonsense only to pull back up after Mari loudly announces Longinus is a metaphor for Despair, Cassius is a metaphor for Hope, but the final magic spear they've created that will let Shinji change the world is the Spear of Willpower
Yeah this is where I'm at. 3+1 went out of its way to make sure everything that was actually thematically important was completely and unambiguously spelled out to the viewer. And normally I like to be able to interpret things on my own with some wiggle room, but it just feels kinda... refreshing in the context of Evangelion?? Like, Anno really didn't want anyone to misinterpret anything this time around, and really wanted viewers to take This, This, and That away from their viewing experience as the most important things to him.
My only previous exposure to this series was the Netflix dub (which I liked, outside of some really weird choices) and now I've seen the first rebuild movie;
While I understand the rest of them start to diverge pretty drastically from the source material, the first one was basically that shot-for-shot remake of Psycho that just added in one more unnecessary scene (Shinji seeing Lilith is the NGE equivalent of Norman jerkin' it); it's so slavish that I honestly wonder why they bothered. Also, the English voice for Toji has to be the absolute oldest 14 year old to ever live; he sounds like he's north of 40
OK so I started watching the remake films recently (having only seen the TV series a single time, not long ago)... so, having missed the bulk of the discourse on the older films and, trying to avoid spoiling myself on the new one: is Mari generally regarded as Poochie or what? I just finished the second movie and I already can't stand her
While I understand the rest of them start to diverge pretty drastically from the source material, the first one was basically that shot-for-shot remake of Psycho that just added in one more unnecessary scene (Shinji seeing Lilith is the NGE equivalent of Norman jerkin' it); it's so slavish that I honestly wonder why they bothered. Also, the English voice for Toji has to be the absolute oldest 14 year old to ever live; he sounds like he's north of 40
To relay a feeling of the time that may or may not have only existed within my own social circle: the initial "point" of the remakes was assumed to be the "perfect" version of NGE that, unlike the original anime, was not marred by budget concerns or directorial issues. The fact that the first rebuild was so familiar was assumed to be the point, as it was assumed it would continue to be familiar, just without all the cruft of people talking motionless on escalators or having to "stretch" some angel encounters to "fill" 26 episodes. Same basic story, same beats, just with the budget of a franchise that is already known to be a financial success.
Absolutely not what it turned out to be, but it was what my friends thought it was "supposed to be" from initial advertising/release. "What happened" when it veered off in Movie 2 was a genuine surprise.
OK so I started watching the remake films recently (having only seen the TV series a single time, not long ago)... so, having missed the bulk of the discourse on the older films and, trying to avoid spoiling myself on the new one: is Mari generally regarded as Poochie or what? I just finished the second movie and I already can't stand her
that seems to more or less be the reaction to her. i think there's a case for her in 3.0+1.0, but she mostly exists to have another character who can do action scenes while other characters are busy.
OK so I started watching the remake films recently (having only seen the TV series a single time, not long ago)... so, having missed the bulk of the discourse on the older films and, trying to avoid spoiling myself on the new one: is Mari generally regarded as Poochie or what? I just finished the second movie and I already can't stand her
I have no idea what the Evangelion fandom at large thinks of her but I was pretty unimpressed with Mari from the first three films. (Maybe she's amazing in the fourth, but I don't have plans to see it.) She struck me as being shallowly and uncomplicatedly "cool" in a way that's at odds with the rest of the cast, and I get the sense that she exists more to move merch than because of her vital role in the story.
I wasn't sure if maybe people had come around in a "she doesn't suck ACTUALLY" kind of way. All of her scenes were eyerollingly corny IMO. She's super OP, big boobs, horny for protag, hijacked the Eva... UGH
The point of the Rebuilds, per an interview with Anno back in '07 or so, said he did them because
People misunderstood the message of the original Eva. Instead of going out and living lives, otaku doubled down on Eva and it became an industry into itself. They never had to leave Evangelion, they could just live in it forever. This upset him and he wanted to show that the message was to leave Eva behind, and to grow up, and make your own way in the world. I find this echoed in 3.33 where Kaworu is (wrongly) telling Shinji to just keep replaying the song until it makes him happy.
Spoilered because that's exactly what it was in the end. I wish I could find that interview again.
Absolutely not what it turned out to be, but it was what my friends thought it was "supposed to be" from initial advertising/release. "What happened" when it veered off in Movie 2 was a genuine surprise.
Not to toot my own horn, but I was predicting a cyclical repeating pattern as early as the first film. There are plenty of context clues in there that point to the fact as early as 1.0. So I wasn't as surprised, but I think that also maybe helped my enjoyment because I found the departure welcome and an easy adjustment, versus building up a different idea in my head that eventually got betrayed.
that seems to more or less be the reaction to her. i think there's a case for her in 3.0+1.0, but she mostly exists to have another character who can do action scenes while other characters are busy.
I have no idea what the Evangelion fandom at large thinks of her but I was pretty unimpressed with Mari from the first three films. (Maybe she's amazing in the fourth, but I don't have plans to see it.) She struck me as being shallowly and uncomplicatedly "cool" in a way that's at odds with the rest of the cast, and I get the sense that she exists more to move merch than because of her vital role in the story.
I wasn't sure if maybe people had come around in a "she doesn't suck ACTUALLY" kind of way. All of her scenes were eyerollingly corny IMO. She's super OP, big boobs, horny for protag, hijacked the Eva... UGH
I think I was with a lot of you and agreed with these takes for the first couple movies. Her character is more justified in 3+1 on account that her being the action showcase is more justified in the story, and she fills the role of being someone else that Shinji can develop a much more healthy romantic relationship with versus how toxic things were with Rei or Asuka. In that sense, she's there for pretty important thematic purposes, but she's also still a superfluous character who more or less exists to complement a male character versus doing anything interesting on her own.
And yet, I still found myself digging her in 3+1 a lot?? Her personality through all of the films is one that's flippant, playful, aloof, and whimsical. Which feels completely out of place in the Eva world, but I think that's the point? She's one of several inflection points that provide different input stimulus for to help guide the characters towards a better resolution than the original Eva timeline.
She's also played by Maaya Sakamoto, a god tier voice actress who I've gained a much stronger appreciation of over the years since the last rebuild film. And in a meta sense, it was just kinda fun to listen to her mess around and have fun doing so in this film.
Yep. 3+1 really, *really* didn't want people to mistake what it was about. I would call it narratively heavy handed if it weren't for the fact that apparently most of the fandom of this franchise (the scourgey types) obviously need such a heavy hand to help them along.
Also, Mari has a significant cameo in an Evangelion manga sidestory, as Yui's serious and uptight child-prodigy classmate (who also had a crush on her and hated that she ended up with Gendo.)
It's a... baffling cameo because it's left up to the reader to guess whether or not that's the same Mari we know from the films, since the manga is already a different continuity. But why add her to Yui's potential backstory otherwise?
Yep. 3+1 really, *really* didn't want people to mistake what it was about. I would call it narratively heavy handed if it weren't for the fact that apparently most of the fandom of this franchise (the scourgey types) obviously need such a heavy hand to help them along.
Not that there isn't truth to that, but, this IS the same franchise that gladly milked the same aging otaku via thousands of dollars of merchandise, from the innocuous (dress ties and cologne) to the... well, you know (fetish figures and official hentai games.)
Regardless of who was pushing forward that marketing behemoth, between all the different publishers and media owners, it would be disingenuous for the creator (or any analysis thereof) to ignore its effects on the fanbase.
Regardless of who was pushing forward that marketing behemoth, between all the different publishers and media owners, it would be disingenuous for the creator (or any analysis thereof) to ignore its effects on the fanbase.
I mean, that's literally the entire purpose of the spirit of the rebuild to begin with? Oh hey, we fucked up conveying our ideas the first time, here's a second go so that it's much more clear. I don't know what you want or are asking for, beyond asking Anno to publicly dogeza for his past creepshots.
I think what bothers me most is that Mari lacks Rei and Asuka's flaws. The idea of accepting oneself and seeking communion with others is perhaps less poignant and affecting when there's an unbroken readymade waifu to pair with the protag in the mix
Also I think it's kinda silly to chastise Anno for fanservice. Like, Gainax were famous and even innovative at sexualizing their characters. Gunbuster was Anno's directorial debut lmao
My friend (who went by The Keith on old TT) had an interesting theory on Mari that... I'm only buying more and more reading the objections to her here... (Major 3+1 spoilers)
Mari is a Mary Sue. On purpose. She represents the fanbase in a literal sense with how they interact with Eva in fanficiton, etc. She shows up in the nick of time, she's a super cool Eva pilot, she's best friends with Asuka, she has a rad screenname (Illustrious) but also a religious symbolism wank name (escariot). I mean if you write Mary Escariot in kana "Mary Sue" is in her name. The ending message, then, being "you and Shinji both need to move on from Eva together"
Well I'm definitely subscribing to that theory and holding it as canon now. Though I don't know if Japanese fandoms would spell the concept as ス, スー, or シュ.
And Anno needs to stop reading 90s Eva fanfic because holy crap that'd the most accurate Mary Sue amalgam ever.
I like that she's a Mary Sue? Like, here Shinji. Chase someone who has their shit together and isn't toxic/abusive or isn't a clone of your mom. And for a show where literally every single character has massive hang ups and problems, having someone who kinda doesn't have that baggage and can just be a nice person who is supportive and helpful and is genuinely a good person, is very much a breath of fresh air. In fact, that's probably the thing I liked the most about 3+1. Where all the now-adult characters have grown up. They've been through some shit, but they've self-reflected, they've grown up, they've matured, and they've created new lives for themselves. And now that they're doing ok and are in a stable position in life, they're able to extend support and kindness to Shinji in ways they weren't exactly fully equipped to do before. And it makes a big difference. Especially for Shinji who gets time to decompress and think about what's happened and what he wants to do and who he wants to be. It's very much what Eva needed from the beginning and addresses its biggest flaw (imo). Making a treatise on depression isn't really all that great or useful unless you can follow it up with something constructive regarding how to get yourself out of such a spiral. And the meat of 3+1's narrative is all about that. Good stuff.
Shinji (and Gendo!) are the Mary Sues of Evangelion, since they are unambiguously self-insert characters of the creator. Mari is allegedly based on his wife, at least as far as personality goes though, so unpack that in the context of 3.0+1.0 I guess
I'm always amused by the abuse of the term 'Mary Sue' because this is originally what it was about. A character that was beautiful, perfect, and that everyone liked and wanted to date because they were female self-inserts for Star Trek fanfiction. And a key kicker to the concept was that the Mary Sue usually died a tragic death so that everyone else on the Enterprise crew could be sad at their passing and absence. Which is a whole other can of beans.
