This is basically where I'm at with it. I can't get a PS5 near launch anyway, but I'll WANT to play this just because I'd love an overall smoother Demon's Souls gameplay experience. But I just really don't like a lot of these art changes. The atmosphere and lighting specifically were so unique and effective (even if annoying for plenty of people at times). I guess I really hope the classic filter does the original's atmosphere justice.
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Demon's Souls
- Thread starter Ludendorkk
- Start date
Any change is acceptable, but also it's acceptable to evaluate whether those changes are good or bad.
fanboymaster
(He/Him)
You can't really update art without changing it, but as someone with no fondness for Demon's or its art it is honestly more concerning that there's been little attempt to address a coherent vision for what art changes were made and why. Maybe it's in that hour long video but they really needed to be more forthright about what kind of mindset they had in updating the art to get the confidence of those on the fence about it.
conchobhar
What's Shenmue?
I don't have a creative bone in my body and I agree with this. I don't have a problem with them taking liberties with the source (in fact, I generally prefer when remakes do), but to make massive aesthetic changes while still playing up its authenticity because of other aspects is, to me, a dramatic misunderstanding of the game. I don't think Souls' gameplay can be so easily decoupled from its aesthetic sense; they reinforce and elevate each other.
But I think what bothers me the most about their claims of authenticity is that they have made changes to the mechanics: changing the weight of grass to make it more "balanced", and effectively negating item burden by adding an option to immediately send loot to the Nexus (and who knows if there's more in wait). So this reverence extends only to the combat. And while I can't say I'm exactly surprised by that— the combat is definitely the most talked-about aspect of the series, after all— it's still disheartening to see Demon's Souls be, officially, treated as little more than that.
it took me a second to realize you meant bloodborne, but even though i think that speaks to the way that phrases like "soulslike" and "the dark souls of" have become so cliché as to be parodied until the parodies themselves became cliché...that's still on me. that said, the discussion around whether bloodborne is a successor to dark souls would have a very different tone if it didn't feature essentially the same creators! which, to my understanding, this remake does not, suggesting that what positions it as a "souls" game is the ownership of the IP.
and that obviously is what it is, but i think this gets to my entire point that if we're defining the game by its mechanics, is that the mechanics that actually existed in the game, or the ones that bring out its most direct commonalities with dark souls and bloodborne? as much as the reputation of the game when it came out was "it's really hard!" it's incredibly broken and super easy compared to the later entries despite a few unusually "mean" elements. i found an article that answered some of my curiosities there, like apparently they are rebalancing grass weight and changing the "kill bosses from outside of the room strats (though there's still some in-room safe spots that aren't terribly different, so i dunno what'll happen with those)
(i do also think that the "aesthetic" of a game is much more than the art design and visual elements, and that the sensibilities around characters and the tone of the setting and story are at least as much of a recognizable throughline of the "series" as the combat mechanics, and although the indication seems to be that they don't intend to change that specifically, it certainly strikes me as something that interacts with miyazaki's direction, if nothing else)
I like Digital Foundry a lot for what it is, but the purpose of a Digital Foundry video (and especially one that's an interview about a technical showcase game for a new product) is basically always to talk about the implementation of particle effects or whatever rather than the mindset behind the art design. I've only listened to the first half but that's what this seems to be as well.
(Also while I don't like the new look, I honestly don't think they really need to be more forthright about their mindset, it's going to sell a bajillion copies.)
The soundtrack's out there for those that want to listen to it. I wasn't hopeful to begin with going by the snippets shared before, but it's right atrocious treatment of the material across the board. This is less on Bluepoint than other things, I think, as the series is now seemingly crushed under the legacy of its own aural homogeneity and decay, as a point of inevitability.
I guess I reject the idea that any game’s “soul” or “essence” can be centered in one aspect or another, and would instead contend that changing any aspect of a game alters that “essence”, even if it’s not the part of the game most people enjoyed or remember about it.
This does not mean remakes are bad, or that everything should be preserved exactly as it was. It doesn’t even mean the original is superior to attempts to change it. It’s just that I think we should recognize that games are holistic works where every part of a game informs the other. Changing major parts of the art then acting like the essence of the game is completely intact rings hollow to me.
I kind of think more remakes should go the FF7R route and just acknowledge that recreating the original is impossible and instead focus on a new interpretation.
This does not mean remakes are bad, or that everything should be preserved exactly as it was. It doesn’t even mean the original is superior to attempts to change it. It’s just that I think we should recognize that games are holistic works where every part of a game informs the other. Changing major parts of the art then acting like the essence of the game is completely intact rings hollow to me.
I kind of think more remakes should go the FF7R route and just acknowledge that recreating the original is impossible and instead focus on a new interpretation.
fanboymaster
(He/Him)
I gave the video the benefit of the doubt, if I'd honestly believed it had any major info on the art direction mindset I'd have watched it.
I definitely didn't argue the game wouldn't sell, I argued that to assuage people unhappy with the original art they'd have had to be more forthright about the mindset they'd carried into updating it. I'd like them to have done that either way, perhaps that's a Sony decision, perhaps not, doesn't amount to much either way.
I mean, as somebody who likes Demon's Souls the most out of any of the Souls games, it sure as hell isn't because it's mechanically superior to the later ones.
I think the idea of "soulslike" being a manifest of mechanics is why there are so many bad souls copies out there. the greatest gift of the games aren't the mechanics in how they exist for themselves, but how the mechanics are used within the world design to convey the outright exhaustive atmosphere and setting of the games. a demon's souls with different architecture and art is a different demon's souls
Ludendorkk
(he/him)
There isn't a single "soulslike" that comes close to Fromsoft's work, and I've played most of them. Some of them, like Nioh, have as strong or stronger mechanical bases as From's work. Some of them, like Mortal Shell, have more advanced graphics. But none of them have the holistic aesthetic or thematic gesalt that bind the presentation and mechanics together and elevate them to more than the sum of their parts.
I'm really just sad at the number of "it's good they changed everything, the original was garbage" takes I've seen from people who only see this game as ammo for console wars
I'm really just sad at the number of "it's good they changed everything, the original was garbage" takes I've seen from people who only see this game as ammo for console wars
I'm watching a stream of this, and you can see just fine in the 5-2 swamp. This remake is bullshit.
I'm going to be a little flippant and dismissive of everyone's complaints and opinions, so apologies in advance and feel free to not even click this, but: ya'll are aware you can just buy an official art book of the original Demon's Souls and always have that to admire, right?
conchobhar
What's Shenmue?
Well, I'm glad you got that out of your system.
I was getting tired of almost 3 entire pages worth of people ragging on this remake.
if you're going to replace every creature with something from a Troma movie, at least put in a 4K photograph of a cat
I'll hold my breathe while you buy it and send it to me. I'm lucky enough that my PS3 isn't dying. That doesn't mean the remake's art direction isn't entirely missing the point. The combat is funny enough the thing I'd hoped they'd change the most. Demon's could REALLY use some kind of poise implementation.
Too bad Bluepoint chose to prioritize poorly, or that Sony demanded people be able to see what their shiny new hardware can do with graphics, atmosphere be damned. Doesn't excuse some of the new direction just being outright bad like the maneater faces. Classic filter won't be able to change that, assuming it can actually succeed at what it's advertised to do at all.
conchobhar
What's Shenmue?
if you're going to replace every creature with something from a Troma movie, at least put in a 4K photograph of a cat
I have some good news on this front:
FWIW I have no opinion on the game. I'm always a fan of stuff being weird for weirdness' sake so I will miss The Cat™, but like...whatever.
When I can actually play this, I'll check it out, but the PS5 is still a thing that exists as an abstract idea to me rather than an actual thing, so I'm not in a huge rush.
When I can actually play this, I'll check it out, but the PS5 is still a thing that exists as an abstract idea to me rather than an actual thing, so I'm not in a huge rush.
Feelings on the art direction aside, the feeling of playing the game is really nice! And I do like the classic filter though I probably won't play with it.
I only checked it out briefly though. Not doing a deep dive until I finish Miles Morales. I probably won't stop bagging on art and enemy design changes I don't like (sorry Yangus) but the actual play experience feels like it's going to be a good time!
I only checked it out briefly though. Not doing a deep dive until I finish Miles Morales. I probably won't stop bagging on art and enemy design changes I don't like (sorry Yangus) but the actual play experience feels like it's going to be a good time!