Bloodborne

[Paul le Fou]

For discussion of malaria, syphilis, the beast plague, hepatitis, eyes on the inside of your brain, HIV, and other pathogens spread through the blood.

Also, it's an old party: we're all late to it at this point, or we've been hanging around long after the host's gone to bed and nursing our beers in the backyard.

ANYWAY! To summarize the other thread:

I finally checked off the blatant hole in my Souls list and played Bloodborne, starting a bit over a month ago. I made it through the base game OK by summoning help on bosses, naturally. I never quite found a weapon to rival the Saw Cleaver on my first playthrough, thought the Boom Hammer came very close. On my NG+ run, I switched to the pizza cutter and have been having fun lumberjack-buzzsawing the legs off of giant beasts; of late, I added the Amygdalan Arm to my arsenal as my second weapon for its super wide area coverage and its creepy & powerful R2 attacks (normal and charged) with their extra hits and insanely long range. I'm reaching the point in the game where I'm no longer Crazy OP, and my stats are mostly maxed at hard caps, so the balance is starting to catch up with me. I'm at 50 strength and vitality, so attack and HP can only barely creep slowly up. I've been leveling skill for a long time now, but the meager gains on my strength-focused weapons have been leveling off as I reached and passed 30. If I were to push this build farther, I'd probably do the next run as a Quality build, and look at the Church Pick and something else as weapons, but I think I'd rather focus on a new run instead - the point in Souls NG+ runs where levels either become very hard to come by and/or start doing very little for you is almost inevitably where I drop off. I have a brand-new character that I plan to run as Skill, so if I don't take a break from the game I'll probably focus on him instead...

Last night I beat Rom, who joined Witch of Hemwick as only the second boss I've died to in this NG+ run, despite being one of the few bosses easy enough that I actually beat solo in my first play. Meanwhile, Shadows of Yharnam, who I was downright fearing coming back to, ended up being fairly simple. But now I'm actually a bit stuck figuring out where to go next. My options right now are Yahar'gul, Cainhurst, and the Nightmare Frontier. And technically the DLC, I guess, though lord knows I'm dreading that trip too - see above re: scaling catching up with me.

I kinda hate the frontier so I'll probably put that off as long as I can. Cainhurst is a neat environment with a boss I remember looking forward to fighting again, but I also remember despising all the invisible ladies and such. My only thought is that if I do Yahar'gul sooner, I can access Mergo's Loft and the Upper Cathedral Ward sooner. I'm interested in getting to Mergo's Loft sooner than later because I missed making contact and getting the higher-level Moon rune my first time through. But see above re: leveling and stats starting to taper off anyway. And I must be fuckin' coocoo nutso to think about going to the loft even a moment sooner than I'm absolutely required to. So...probably Cainhurst!

 

[jpfriction]

Cainhurst hits that nice intersection between "coolest environment" and "pain in the ass enemies I just run past the entire time so I don't get to look at the cool environments".

 

[Paul le Fou]

Bloodborne!

I actually haven't played since this last post. I think I've hit the point where I'm good for a little bit. I may go back someday and finish off that NG+ run, and/or play through the fresh character I'm aiming a skill build at. And I still want to try Arcane sometime. But I kind of realized I didn't really want to do any of the next areas, like, I was semi-dreading each of them, and was like, Eh, maybe I'll just...not, for right now.

But the people demanded Bloodborne and who am I to deprive them??

 

[Falselogic]

I've still never completed the Fishing Hamlet or maybe even the Astral Clocktower. I should get back to that at some point. But, it has been so long. And, I'm hoping this game will finally come to PCs...

Imma wait.

 

[Paul le Fou]

There have been a lot of rumors about a Remaster that will be on PS5 and PC. Like, "They did network testing" kind of granular rumors, so it seems pretty credible?

 

[Cyrael]

I'd buy it and replay it no questions asked. I bought a PS4 for Bloodborne, so why not buy a PS5 for it again.

 

[estragon]

I'm finally playing this, because someone gave me their old PS4. I'm currently pretty far in, I think. In the main route, I beat the Shadows of Yarnam, and I believe I've done all the optional areas in the main route until that point (Cainhurst, Nightmare Frontier, Old Yarnham). In the Chalice Dungeons, I've finished Lower Pthermu and the first Hintertomb. I guess I need to get ingredients to progress to Defiled Pthermu from either the next Hintertomb or the first Loran chalice, which I have but have't created yet. I have finished Hunter's Nightmare, including Laurence and Orphan of Kos.

My experience with the game so far is really different from the impressions I'd received from hearing about it.

Possibly my expectations were unreasonably high given the game's reputation which I think is partially buffetted by its exclusitivity, but I've honestly been pretty down on the main route, relative to other Fromsoft games. I've found the level design, enemy encounters, and bosses to be pretty dull and samey by comparison. Especially in the opening areas, I think the game is way too visually busy in a way that's hard to read in a way no other Fromsoft game of this type has been. I think this could be remedied somewhat with a remaster, where higher resolution might make the cluttered city streets of Yarnham easier to parse, both in terms of objects and enemies.

I do like the one thing I've heard people who like the game frequently complain about, which is the approach to Blood Vials. Being able to carry 20 from the start is extremely forgiving, compared to the Dark Souls and beyond approach of making you start with low single digits of health refills. I've been using all my spare change to buy Blood Vials and/or bullets whenever I can't buy a level or a major ticket item, so I've never been low, either. My preference is the Demon's Souls system where you can just carry all the health refills you want, but this is a fine compromise. A max of 20 has only really affected a handful of boss battles. I also do like the rally system for a similar reason: lots of bosses and enemies you can basically just mindlessly exchange blows with and be more or less fine. Between 20 heals from the start of the game and the rally system, I think this is the most player friendly game in this style, softening the typical reverse difficulty curve you're likely to encounter in a first playthrough.

I do unreservedly love the weapon transformations. My favorite weapons in these games are typically a small, fast sword or a huge smashing sword. Typically, that's two different weapons, on two different builds, for two different playthroughs. Now, I just equip Ludwig's Holy Blade and get both of these weapons whenever I want them, and they both scale with the Arcane stat once I put in the right gems.

I've been playing with an Arcane build, and it's making me wonder if the idea that I've often heard passsed around that an Arcane build is hard to get off the ground in this game is received wisdom from before the DLC that's been passed on without reevaluation. Early on, weapon scaling doesn't really matter that much. You're just increasing stats to have more HP, to meet weapon minimums, or get to a comfortable stamina level anyway. By the time that stops being the case, the game gives you gems to convert weapons into doing arcane damage. I've been running with Ludwig's Holy Blade with either Fire or Lightning gems (depending on enemy weaknesses in the area and what gems are stronger at the moment) since shortly after Vicar Amelia, and I've had a pretty easy go of things. Early preset Chalice Dungeons shower you in Fire gems, and almost everything in the game is weak to fire! Bolt and arcane gems are less frequent, but they do the job well enough to get you through the handful of enemies resistant to fire. Then, toward the end of the DLC, there are mages who cast lightning spells, and they drop Lightning gems way more powerful than the fire ones I'd been relying on—just in time to be able to damage Laurence who I'd ignored, and also an increase in DPS to Oprhan of Kos. Unless something in the main story or later Chalice Dungeons is a bigger hurdle to an Arcane build than anything in Hunter's Nightmare, I think an Arcane build is pretty smooth sailing, not only in terms of weapon damage but also access to spells. Laurence and Kos were definitely a lot easier because of access to good ranged damage, and this is without feeling like I'm making a big sacrifice in terms of melee damage. The biggest hurdle in an Arcane run is probably Logarious, but that feels by design. Beating him gives you access to the earliest Arcane spell that feels transformative, so it makes sense that he's a hurdle, like Seath is a hurdle to getting the Moonlight Greatsword in Dark Souls and other bosses where an enemy resistant to your main element rewards you with a tool that transforms the whole approach to that build.

In contrast to being underwhelmed by the main route, I think the DLC is among the best things Fromsoft has ever done. Sekiro is going to remain my favorite Fromsoft experience as a whole, but the stretch from Hunter's Nightmare, up the Clocktower, to the shore in the Fishing Village is now definitely my favorite part of any of their games. In terms of visuals, level design, enemy design and placement, bosses, and the way all these elements comes together as a narrative, culminating in the unsettling path to and encounter with the Orphan of Kos is flawless. It's a perfect little microcosm of what Bloodborne is trying to do, but it's maybe so good that for me it also draws attention to all the ways that the game proper has been dull or unsatisfying for me, relative to their other games. We'll see if that latter parts of the main route change my mind, but that's my experience so far.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I gotta get back into this one; was playing it in February but FF7 Rebirth devoured my entire March.

 

[Paul le Fou]

You.....you're only halfway through the main game, but you already beat the DLC?

Jesus fucking christ

 

[lincolnic]

You.....you're only halfway through the main game, but you already beat the DLC?

Jesus fucking christ

Seconding Paul here. Orphan is probably the hardest fight in the entire game, this is impressive as hell.

 

[Patrick]

I had to go back & double check if I read that correctly.

The DLC is all intended to be post-game content. So that will really warp your experience with the main game.

 

[estragon]

For me, I found the DLC to be easier than the main game to that point. Also, I don't think doing things in this order is a challenge run, exactly. It seems easier than the pre-DLC pathing, for me at least.

If you chip away at Hunter's Nightmare around this point in parallel with the other main game areas that also open up around this time (Cainhurst and Nightmare Frontier), you get enough materials to upgrade your main weapon to +10 by the end of Hunter's Nightmare. So, you don't end up doing the DLC underlevelled or with a weak weapon anything. The game is designed so it's fairly natural and straightforward to do this in terms of the difficulty curve. If anything, I think it makes it easier, because you're getting weapon materials from two parallel sources. The only real roadblock is Ludwig. I reached Ludwig and was definitely underlevelled, but when I came back after Cainhurst I had finally enough VIT to not be one-shotted anymore, and I my first real spell thanks to Logarius' Executioners' Gloves. Another benefit to this pathing that I didn't realize this when I started is that going in this order also gives you Bloodborne's Soul Arrow equivalent, which means I don't have to play melee anymore as an Arcane Build. This will probably make the game easier and more more fun for me going forward. Also, I just kept being drawn back to the DLC areas because I found them to be more fun and interesting in terms of level and encounter design, and not necessarily harder.

I understand this means I'll be overpowered for the end of the main game, but that's fine. I'll like it more that way. I went on to finish the first Loran Chalice and the Defiled Chalice, and they were a lot easier and more fun since I could just plink away at bosses and tough enemies with my Soul Arrow instead of learning how to dodge. I'm not very good at these games and don't play them for the difficulty. The way Bloodborne gives you 20 heals that recover a percentage of total right HP from the start, lets you heal by exchanging blows so button mashing often lets you come out even, and really rewards investing into VIT really suits my playstyle (can't parry, am not very good at dodging). A lot of the advice I see about this game (e.g. you should beat Orphan of Kos by fishing for parries or doing a charged R2 backstab to get a visceral attack) seems way harder than just investing a lot in VIT and exchanging blows so you come out more or less fine. I'd rather just do it in a stupid, brute force way than learn to parry or the right timing for a charged backstab.

I think boss difficulty in these games really depends on how much you click with the encounter design, and I absolutely clicked with Orphan of Kos. I can see why the way he swings around his weapon, for example, could be hard to read, but for me it was relatively intuitive to dodge and then close space to get in a hit, compared to the various beast type bosses in the early game main route. Also, the camera understands what to do in the battle 99% of the time, which made it way easier than Ludwig or Laurence. So, for me, Orphan of Kos was by far the easiest boss in the DLC, and I don't think I'd put it in even the top 10 most difficult bosses in the game so far.

I'd rank bosses like this so far for this playthrough:

Difficulty (Top 10 Hardest so far):
1. Darkbeast Paarl (the camera is just a mess for this one)
2. Laurence (bad camera, hard for me to read his attacks)
3. Ludwig (a fantastic boss, but tough)
4. Logarius (a good boss, but very tough for an Arcane build due to his resistances)
5. Chalice Dungeon Rom (a good boss, but this is one I probably did too early and so it became an accidental challenge run type encounter...)
6. Lady Maria (a fantastic boss, but tough)
7. Vicar Amelia (camera)
8. Cleric Beast (camera)
9. Blood Starved Beast (camera)
10. Father Gasciogne (a good boss, but tough)

Fun (Best to Good, I like everything included here, anything not included I don't like enough to rank):
1. Lady Maria
2. Orphan of Kos
3. Ludwig
4. Witch of Hemwick
5. Shadows of Yarnham
6. Living Failures
7. Father Gasciogne
8. Logarius
9. Amygdala

Basically, I don't really like very many of the big beasts that jump all over the place, which this game is full of in the first half. Almost anything beast styled I find hard and not very fun, except for Ludwig, which feels like more or less the best possible implementation of that style of encounter. Thinking back to make this list, I'm now realizing more consciously that a big reason I'm not clicking with Bloodborne as much as the other games is that it's made up of a lot of my least favorite style of enemy and boss in these games: an animal that jumps all over the place that the camera system seems poorly suited for.

On the other hand, this does give me more hope for the latter parts of the main route, because assuming the DLC is sort of a microcosm for the story as a whole, then hopefully I'll be seeing fewer beasts going forward!

 

[Ludendorkk]

I think boss difficulty in these games really depends on how much you click with the encounter design, and I absolutely clicked with Orphan of Kos. I can see why the way he swings around his weapon, for example, could be hard to read, but for me it was relatively intuitive to dodge and then close space to get in a hit, compared to the various beast type bosses in the early game main route. Also, the camera understands what to do in the battle 99% of the time, which made it way easier than Ludwig or Laurence. So, for me, Orphan of Kos was by far the easiest boss in the DLC, and I don't think I'd put it in even the top 10 most difficult bosses in the game so far.

I love this, this is absolutely wild. Orphan of Kos is almost universally considered one of the toughest of all Souls fights. Different strokes I guess lol

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I have not gotten past Gasciogne yet in this, but I kicked the tar out of a number of Elden Ring bosses that were sticking points for some. But then others really stymied me. I think estragon is right about vibing with the encounter or not.

 

[jpfriction]

Sorry Estragon, you “got gud” and are contractually obliged to join the speed running community.

 

[lincolnic]

estragon, your camera troubles make me wonder if you're relying heavily on trying to lock onto the bosses? If that's the case, I'd encourage you not to. A lot of these fights get a lot easier when you're not also fighting the camera (the hardest enemy in any Souls game). Paarl, notably, becomes pretty much free.

 

[Issun]

I have not gotten past Gasciogne yet in this, but I kicked the tar out of a number of Elden Ring bosses that were sticking points for some. But then others really stymied me. I think estragon is right about vibing with the encounter or not.

If you want some hints for Daddy G:

There's a cluster of gravestones near the entrance that help keep separation between you and him during the first two phases. Third phase there's a device you can find above the sewers that helps stun him temporarily and also firebombs are very useful against him in that form.

Also Bloodborne doesn't give you the early options that Elden Ring does, so Gascoigne may be the most imposing early boss in the From canon.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

Thanks! I've gotten pretty close on him, and I have the music box. Will give it another shot. But I actually installed Dark Souls III on my new Steam Deck (wheee!) and have been playing that, it feels closer to ER so far vs BB.

 

[estragon]

I ended my previous Bloodborne playthrough liking it enough to do more or less everything (got all endings, beat all main game bosses, did beat the secret boss in the premade chalice dungeons, but did not explore some of the challenges that only exist in random chalice dungeons) but also thinking it was my least favorite of the Fromsoft games in the Demons Souls and beyond lineage.

However, I decided to try it again because absorbing informatoin about Shadow of the Erdtree made me want to play something Fromsoft-y, but I don't have the time or mental energy to learn new maps at the moment, and this was still installed on my PS4.

The second time around, I'm appreciating it a lot more. The biggest change was just that for my initial weapon I picked the Threaded Cane. I wasn't sure if I'd ever play this again, so before my first playthrough I skimmed discussions of what starting weapon people seem to like, and the Threaded Cane was always treated like it's not even an option. However, I'm finding its very fast strikes and extremely low stamina usage to fit much better into the rhythms of the game. A fast charge time plus thrusting style longer range also makes it easier to get in visceral attacked from charged R2 backstabs. I don't turn it into the whip very often, because I remember a lot of enemy placements and an just trying to manage aggro to avoid being mobbed. But when you are mobbed, it can be exactly what you need.

I also decided to just die for a long time until I got a handle on parry timings. I still suck at it, and I'm not sure if I'll be able to do them in the late game. However, there are definitely a number of early game enemies with extremely generous parry windows that you can basically effortlessly one-shot for the cost a single bullet with a dex based weapon like Threaded Cane. As the game goes on, I'm finding more enemies where I just don't understand the parry timing anymore. So, maybe at some point I'll run into a brick wall where this stops working, but the opening at least is very fun with the Threaded Cane plus parrying.

 

[Falselogic]

My only complete run through Bloodborne was with the Threaded Cane. I loved it and the build I made for it. And yes, the reason I loved it was because how fast it was!

 

[Paul le Fou]

I never learned to parry either - I got OK at best on the early learning enemies and then later on it all went to shit. But I understand a number of major bosses later on are nearly trivialized by getting the parry timing down, so it might be worth pushing on and continuing to try and master it.

 

[air_show]

Best way to learn is to just be liberal with your bullet usage. Take shots from time to time, preferably when out of range of your enemy's attack, and worst case scenario is you inflict a small amount of damage (or more depending on the gun you're using). Eventually you get the hang of it, just like how you ultimately have to learn when to time your regular weapon swings.

Also, for anyone who hasn't discovered it yet: *work transform attacks into your combos* They make great finishers and inflict a lot of damage most of the time, and weapons like the saw-cleaver really don't reach peak performance until you realize just how much damage hitting L1 at the end of your attack does.

 

[estragon]

Going through with the Threaded Cane, I've beaten The One Reborn in the main game and Ludwig in The Old Hunters. I haven't engaged with chalices at all, haven't gone to Cainhurst yet or Nightmare Frontier, and haven't been to Old Yarnham yet because I want to take the back way in, both to see the friendly resolution there and because Dark Beast Paarl is the most difficult boss in the game for me, so I put it off until late in the game.

Still loving the Cane, and I'm appreciating the whip transformation more as I get used to its range. It's not quite as long as it looks to me, but the hitbox is still really big in a way that helps not just with multiple enemies but also with bosses like Ludwig where spacing is tricky. I remembered I whiffed a lot on Ludwig with Ludwig's Holy either because I misjudged the spacing on the untransformed version or because the transformed version is slow, but the Cane's whip mode has a nice combination of range and decent speed that is great for phase 1 Ludwig.

Part of me thinks that if I can get past Ludwig that I'm set to get past anything, but on the other hand this is around when my Arcane build started to have access to ranged attacks so good that I started to be able to play like a Demons/Dark/Elden type Sorcerer, so a lot of what's left will be my first time encountering it melee only...