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Blobbing Along - Talking About First Person Dungeon Crawling

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
First person dungeon crawls are one of the oldest styles of video games, going back to games like Moria and Oubliette on PLATO mainframe computers in the 1970s. The early games had wireframe graphics depicting their dungeons, generally laid out as a series of corridors in a regular square grid. Players would have to draw their own maps to avoid becoming hopelessly lost, and this was facilitated by movement through the 3D world taking place in fixed length steps and turns all at 90 degree angles. Needing an external piece of paper seems hopelessly outdated in the modern era, but I’ve had good times in recent years playing old games this way (but not so good that I won’t use an in-game mapping system if it’s present, which it usually is in modern games).

Combat has as many variations as any other type of rpg, but typically involves forming a party of player characters each with different abilities and equipment and fighting enemies in a menu-driven turn-based interface separate from the exploration interface. Individual encounters aren’t usually too difficult, but dungeoneering is a marathon, not a sprint, and the player must be careful not too consume so many resources in each fight that they’re left unable to make it back to safety. That said, these are often unforgiving games, and it’s very possible to encounter an enemy that can send the party packing in the first round of combat, either by its out of depth overpoweredness compared to the player, an unlucky critical hit, or (particularly in older games) by inflicting a status ailment (e.g. petrification, level drain, or death) that can’t be cured in the dungeon. Making it out of the depths of the dungeon with a weakened party and inadequate resources can be the most exciting (if it succeeds) or frustrating (if it fails) experience in the game.

New games in the genre continue to be released to this day, some of them featuring optional wireframe modes to recall the games of yore. Most feature in-game automaps or, as in the case of the Etrian Odyssey series, the tools to draw your own maps in-game. Many games stick to the old grid-based movement and turn-based combat, but there are also games with real-time combat, free-form movement, or both. My personal tastes tend towards turn and grid based movement and turn based combat.

This sort of game can be pretty off-putting at first. When I was a kid my PC game collection was a bunch of in retrospect clearly pirated floppies from my uncle. I remember finding one of the Might and Magic games in there, giving it a go, and almost immediately getting lost and giving up. I played Shining in the Darkness but didn’t make any maps and eventually gave up. I played through Phantasy Star, but only by closely following guides and maps I got online. Having to get out the paper and make maps was a step too far for me. The gateway came in the form of Etrian Odyssey for DS, which uses the handheld’s touchscreen as a sheet of graph paper. The player party’s position is shown on the map, and squares you have stepped on are (optionally) automatically filled in, but otherwise you draw the map yourself with the stylus. This removes a couple of the big barriers to the genre: you don’t need external paper, and you don’t have to meticulously keep track of where you are on your map, but it maintains the connection to taking notes, drawing maps, and figuring things out for yourself.

Once the Etrians had their hooks in me I tried some older fare: I replayed Phantasy Star and Shining in the Darkness, this time drawing my own maps, and enjoyed them way more than when I’d played them before. I went back further and played the Bard’s Tale. I played games that do the mapping for you, like Strange Journey, Shining the Holy Ark, and Stranger of Sword City. In short, I grew to like these games.

I’ve just started playing Etrian Odyssey IV. I made seven units, one of each class, named after the members of my family (and our cats). Who was allocated which class was determined largely by the character portraits. I was looking to avoid a situation where my wife might glance at the 3DS screen and see a highly sexualised and apparently quite young character named after our young daughter. This was unfortunately pretty limiting, but I managed. I then made my party out of the units named after people, leaving the cats in reserve. This got me the pretty boring party I probably would have chosen anyway: Landsnkect, Fortress, Elemenalist, Archer, and Medic (I don’t have the game open to check the class names, but I’m sure you get the idea). I’ve got the first two in the front row, and may promote the medic to the same once I can afford some armour for him. I’ve completed the intro dungeon and gained access to warp wires, and so far it’s an Etrian game. After the dungeon I sold all the drops and loaded up on new gear, then went to the inn and realised I hadn’t left myself any money for the fee, so I’ll be venturing back into the dungeon with pre-reduced TP. Whoops.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Yeah, the Etrian series is what hooked me on the genre, too. They're still my favorite, as well - I still haven't beaten Shining in the Darkness or the Holy Ark. Those games getting Phantasy Star M2 remakes would really make them shine and make me actually beat them - the automap in Phantasy Star on Switch is fantastic.

I still have to beat Etrian V and Nexus. Both seem great, I just wasn't really in the mood to play them when they came out. I'll go back to them eventually, though.
 

Mogri

Round and round I go
(he)
Staff member
Moderator
Oh hi, did someone ask me my opinion on Stranger of Sword City? Because it's great and you should play it, thanks
 

Wolf

Ancient Nameless Hero
(He/him)
I've always had some trepidation about dungeon crawlers. Keeping track of where I am on a hand-made map is one problem that's turned me off of them, but the other is that I'm always worried about where on the paper to start making the map in the first place. Like, when I start off on a level of the dungeon, I'm not sure where I am in relation to the rest of it, so I don't know where to start drawing the map without worrying about going off the edge of the paper. This is maybe a bit odd, but here we are.

My first venture into this genre was Stonekeep, several years after it was a big deal (for entirely the wrong reasons), and I really had no idea what kind of game it was. I bought it as part of a collection that had several Might and Magic games on it, and I think some Bard's Tale games as well (maybe?). But I mainly got it for Stonekeep, because I'd been intrigued by it ever since I saw it sitting on a store shelf in that box with the holographic skeleton.

It's very rough around the edges, but still entertaining, especially for the right price (you can, bafflingly, get it on GOG.com now for something like ten dollars, I think). Combat is real-time, though movement is still locked to the square-by-square movement style of days gone by. The environments are pretty same-y, which I could deal with, but the frustrating thing is finding hidden switches. If a section of wall has a hidden switch, it's always hidden behind the same brick. Unfortunately, there's zero visual indication of this. Thankfully, the mouse cursor will change to indicate that there's a secret brick, but that just takes the detective work out of noticing any actual differences. If you're hunting for secrets, it becomes tedious rather than challenging, because it's a matter of just... move forward one square, run the cursor over the walls on either side of you, move forward to the next square, check the walls, etc., etc. If you want an example of this done right, play Legend of Grimrock, which also has same-y environments, but uses that to its advantage so that you can spot the walls with a secret switch by actually seeing a difference.

But Stonekeep is fun in a kind of cheesy, goofy way. The story (as far as I got in it) is kind of fantasy-schlock, and a number of the enemies are brought to jerky life by actors in make-up and costumes through the magic of wonderfully bad green-screen effects. But just wandering around and fighting enemies, can be quite entertaining. And at least it automaps, and lets you make notes.

One of these days, I'll dive back into it and maybe figure out how to get past the dragon.
 

Mogri

Round and round I go
(he)
Staff member
Moderator
I've always had some trepidation about dungeon crawlers. Keeping track of where I am on a hand-made map is one problem that's turned me off of them, but the other is that I'm always worried about where on the paper to start making the map in the first place. Like, when I start off on a level of the dungeon, I'm not sure where I am in relation to the rest of it, so I don't know where to start drawing the map without worrying about going off the edge of the paper. This is maybe a bit odd, but here we are.
If that's your concern, then consider jumping in on Bard's Tale I or II, where all maps (except maybe Skara Brae in I and the wilderness in II, which serve as overworlds for their respective games) are 16x16 with wrapping edges. It doesn't matter where you start drawing when the map just wraps on itself anyway.

If you would rather not make hand-drawn maps, Etrian Odyssey allows you to draw maps inside of the game, and Stranger of Sword City automaps. Despite my professed love for the genre, I never got into EO, but I will recommend SoSC to anyone willing to listen.
 

Wolf

Ancient Nameless Hero
(He/him)
Oh, mapping is maybe what I like most about Etrian Odyssey. In theory, I like the idea of making maps. It's just the anxieties of the logistics of it (as explained previously) that get in the way. It gives me a sense of ownership over the experience; this isn't the map, it's my map, with my notes, and with my marking of various landmarks in the way that makes sense to me. And, with the notable exception of the uncomfortably sexualized child characters, I love the aesthetic of EO. I mean, I'm absolute trash at them, and I probably need to adjust Untold 1 and 2 down to picnic level just to see the different levels. But I love them all nonetheless.

I'll have to look into The Bard's Tale, though. Are there any modern versions or re-issues for modern systems, or is this a scenario where I'll be using DOS Box? It's not a problem if it's the latter, I'd just like to kick a little cash to the owners of the property if I can.
 

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
This is probably my favourite genre (it's either this or traditional roguelikes), and I have played quite a lot of them, most to completion, but there are always more.

Oh hi, did someone ask me my opinion on Stranger of Sword City? Because it's great and you should play it, thanks
Seconded.

Keeping track of where I am on a hand-made map is one problem that's turned me off of them, but the other is that I'm always worried about where on the paper to start making the map in the first place. Like, when I start off on a level of the dungeon, I'm not sure where I am in relation to the rest of it, so I don't know where to start drawing the map without worrying about going off the edge of the paper. This is maybe a bit odd, but here we are.
Maybe try a tablet grid-paper app? Don't need to worry about going off the edges of the paper when there's no paper and no edge!

If you want an example of this done right, play Legend of Grimrock
Fuck I miss Grimrock. Those games are amazing. Now there's a subgenre within this space that is severely under-served. I loved Druidstone, but it wasn't a Grimrock, and the dev has gone quiet since then.
 

Mogri

Round and round I go
(he)
Staff member
Moderator
They released the trilogy on Steam and probably GOG, but I'd be surprised if that puts money in the original creators' pockets.

I think the re-releases feature optional automapping. If you want to make your own maps, be aware that the Bard's Tale series is known for nasty tricks, including but not limited to teleporters and spinners with barely any warning (your screen will flash, and it's easy to miss, and it's the same cue regardless of whether it's a teleporter or a spinner). On the other hand, there's a low-level spell that will produce a compass and another to tell you your position in the current dungeon, so the game gives you the tools you need. And then it throws in antimagic/darkness zones. The game giveth and the game taketh away.
 
They released the trilogy on Steam and probably GOG, but I'd be surprised if that puts money in the original creators' pockets.

Actually, Brian Fargo (one of the main creators of the original series) went on to found InXile, which bought the Bard's Tale rights from the corpse of Interplay. InXile went on to release the remastered Bard's Tale Trilogy (which does have a number of nice improvements, not just an emulator wrapper), and the brand-new Bard's Tale IV, which was a Kickstarter success and turned out to be very good in its own right. Both are available to buy or through Game Pass on PC and XB1, and IV is also on PS4.

InXile has now been bought in turn by Microsoft, so I don't know exactly who gets what from a purchase, but you can definitely help send a message that you'd like more of this sort of thing by making one.
 

Torzelbaum

????? LV 13 HP 292/ 292
(he, him, his)
Well, I guess it's sort of nice that someone else made this thread. I was thinking about making a thread for dungeon crawler / dungeon crawl video games in general but didn't feel like I had enough of an opening post (but I did have good silly sub-title to use). So thanks for taking care of that for me, Yimothy.

But I doubt Yimothy can talk about the "blobber" that I have been playing recently so I'll have to. It's called Heroes of a Broken Land and it's a roguelike*. OK, that's not actually true - it's not a roguelike but it does have a Steam page procedurally generated dungeons and overworld. It also is a bit of a hybrid game since it includes some light town building and defense elements and some reputation grinding (of a sort). I can't wholeheartedly recommend it (especially at full price - I got it on sale with a large discount). It is enjoyable enough but it can be a bit repetitive and grindy. There are also some design decisions which made me fairly salty at first but now that I know about them I can work around them and mostly just find them annoying.

The game does not have a ton of art assets so you will see a lot of the same graphics for monsters (with different "skins") and dungeons but I think they look fine (but they're definitely not cutting edge). The dungeons don't have a lot of fiddly bits or things that mess with you so if you like that kind of stuff you might be disappointed in this game. The game has built in free automapping so you don't have to worry about that (unless you really want to). You can adjust the difficulty and for the most part the game isn't too nasty (especially when compared to other games in the genre). You can have a pretty deep stable of characters (I'm not even sure if there is a limit) but you can only have 6 teams of up to 6 characters exploring the land and dungeon diving. And some dungeons even require multiple teams to clear them.

The game does not have random encounters - you can see enemy groups in dungeons if you have line of sight and they can only move or turn when you move† or turn or wait. You can get sneak attacks or flanking bonuses if you attack monsters from the rear or side and your team can sidestep so you will probably be doing some of the good ole' dungeon do-si-do. Battles are turn-based and your stats determine your initiative and how many turns you get. Attack targeting is a bit weird and restrictive but it's easy to grasp once you get used to it (and could be a massive time sink for people who want to min/max absolutely every single battle but was something I never bothered with).

*Per JBear's game genre definitions.

†Oh, maybe it is a roguelike after all.

Also, there's a sequel in early access but it appears to have made some large and significant changes to some of the mechanics of the game so I'm not sure if I would be interested in it.
 
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q 3

here to eat fish and erase the universe
(they/them)
I wish there were more of these on the Switch that weren't skeevy as hell. Oh well time to buy Stranger of Sword City again, again, I guess!
 

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
Keeping track of where I am on a hand-made map is one problem that's turned me off of them, but the other is that I'm always worried about where on the paper to start making the map in the first place.

Keeping track of location is one of my favourite parts - it adds a tension to the exploration. That said, being lost sucks. Most of the games I’ve played have some way around it, though. Usually there’s an item or a spell that will give you a grid coordinate and facing direction. It’s a big help when you’re dealing with spinners and teleport traps, too. As for not knowing where to start, I’ve had to redraw a few maps that went off the edge of the page. I tend to look up a map or two online to figure out what size they are and then use the coordinate spell to find my location on entering a dungeon and start the map accordingly. When I played phantasy star I found that the maps were just slightly too big to fit on my graph paper if I started in the centre square and it turned out I was at either the left or right edge, so I’d advance to the first corner before starting to draw. I also didn’t figure out that the compass can be used aside from as a key so all my maps assumed you start out facing north in each dungeon.

There are a few other things that can catch you out in mapping. Do doors occupy a space, so that if I’m at 1-3 and go through a door I wind up at 3-3, or do I wind up at 2-3? How do stairs work? Do you come out facing the opposite direction at the same coordinate on the next floor, or do you advance in the same direction to wind up a square or two along on the other floor? I had to amend some bits of my Phantasy Star maps because I’d made assumptions about doors that weren’t correct. All part of the experience, though.

I’ve made some more progress in Etrian IV. I’ve even taken out my first FOE - one of the fawns in the second cave area, which I stumbled into without noticing it was there. I also accidentally encountered one of the roos on the sky ship map, which didn’t go so well - I had three units dead before I managed to escape.

I haven’t quite figured out EOIV’s mapping icons. There doesn’t seem to be one for treasure chests, which I’ve always found kind of pointless to map since if I’ve found them, I’ve opened them and there’s no reason to go back, but I like my maps to be complete and so I always put them in. For the moment I’m using the tick icon to indicate that there was something there but I’m done with it.

skeevy as hell

Yeah, this can be an issue. As I mentioned in the first post, I had a hard time finding enough character portraits that weren’t bothersome to build my party in EOIV.
 

Poster

Just some poster
I ran into some of the same issues mentioned above with using actual graph paper, so eventually I just started using a program for map drawing if the game didn't have its own automap.

At any rate, a few years back, I downloaded a bunch of the old, more well known blobbers off GOG (Wizardry, Might and Magic, Gold Box D & D). I especially enjoyed the World of Xeen games, a high point of the series IMO.
 

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
The early gold box games look pretty cool. I used to have a complete copy of Death Knights of Krynn, but as a kid the system was too complicated for me - aside from making maps and taking notes for clues, having to memorise spells for each use really threw me off. It still sounds like busywork that I’d rather see replaced by an MP pool, but someday I’d like to get a hold of Pool of Radiance and go from there.
 

Ixo

"This is not my beautiful forum!" - David Byrne
(Hi Guy)
Any of you have opinions on The Dark Spire for the DS? Cost has always been a barrier to trying it out, and I’ve always wondered if it’s worth tracking down.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
It is, at the very least, an aesthetically sublime game in every way.
 

Klatrymadon

Rei BENSER PLUS
(he/him)
It's a really rewarding game provided you're open to something of the oldest DRPG vintage. I think at the time of its release there was a lot of unfair criticism levelled at it as people enjoying EO1 began looking for something similar, and perhaps got a nasty surprise, but it's important to appreciate that its ambitions weren't remotely similar. It wasn't a bold attempt to update the genre for a new audience with different expectations and sensibilities, but a pure work of pastiche that essentially wanted to be a uniquely stylised entry in the Sir-Tech Wizardry line. Most of its mechanics are pulled wholesale from those games, and relatively little is done to mitigate the inconveniences associated with their systems (spells/abilities are a little easier to manage, though, and there are four members to keep track of instead of six). However, if you take some time on the first couple of floors to properly equip and prepare your party, I think the game becomes perfectly manageable, and certainly a lot less consistently punishing than something like EO1 - it's more than happy to be 'broken' with the right party composition and a bit of multi-classing. A lot of the challenge will inhere in the exploration and puzzle-solving - you're given a lot less to go on than in more modern fare.

I'm possibly repeating something I said on the old forum here, but I think it's worth playing through just to see and hear it, as Peklo suggests. There's nothing like it. It has a really unique kind of charioscuro you don't often see in games - I've never seen anything else use colour the way it does. Its look is partly owed to the DS screen itself, which lent itself to a lot of strong visual choices in all of the Atlus dungeon crawlers (e.g. one thing EO, Strange Journey and The Dark Spire all have in common is beautifully crisp fonts - even the most banal menus are a great pleasure to look at). It's a big fave of mine, but the cost is a bit too hefty for me to easily recommend just grabbing it, if you aren't already sure you'll get into it. You should definitely play it on the original hardware by some means, though.

Edit: ignore that pic, my phone's camera is shocking. It looks amazing - you'll have to trust me!
 
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JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
Holy shit, that game does look great. (I Googled it.) I've heard of the game before, but I've apparently never seen it. I'm going to look into ordering a physical copy ASAP.

ETA: That's... a hefty price tag. Still, maybe I'll treat myself to it as a birthday present to myself.
 

Klatrymadon

Rei BENSER PLUS
(he/him)
A risk-taker! It came with a soundtrack CD (in a separate sleeve), so make sure that's included if you're paying top dollar.

I should also mention the game has a 'classic' mode with wireframe dungeon graphics and 8-bit enemy sprites, which will delight some people, but I'd strongly recommend playing it through normally first.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
The soundtrack is an all-timer. Incorporations of vocals in video game music can be a risky business, and the wider genre of "fantasy" often relies on dull expressions of formulaic awe in the emotions attempted to be evoked with tired choral chants and the like, but The Dark Spire's music is anything but trite. In fact, it's part of this, in my personal perception, grouping of genre works from around the same timeframe that pushed back against those standards in their audio, and often employing specifically unconventional vocals to achieve those ends--the aforementioned Strange Journey is one, while Demon's Souls would be another (in a retrospective irony, considering where that eventual series's musical direction went). You might have discordant, off-key, or primarily oppressive vocals in each, and even in that framework The Dark Spire stands out, with its signature warbly, operatic synthesizations, creating a soundscape that is as close to unique as anything. That is not to say the vocals carry all of it--in fact there is such a vivacity of compositional style throughout that it's staggering, but as a recurring motif they underscore much of what's special about the approach to scoring a superficially "authentic" work in the genre that regardless has plenty of surprises in store for anyone expecting to have guessed its game from the outset.
 

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
I’ve beaten the boss of the first labyrinth in Etrian IV. I’d been having doubts about my approach to character development - I’ve kind of been making them to individually deliver as much damage as possible rather than building a team, though I have made some effort to diversify abilities. I’ve got someone with fire, someone with ice, and someone with lightning, and one unit with piercing and another with wide attacks. Maybe I should have got them all using the same element to get the benefit of the runemaster’s boosting skill, dunno.

Anyway, having everyone individually hitting as hard as I can make them worked out well for the boss - it never managed to actually use whatever big attack it charges up for because I could land enough hits to break it out of the charge. I still had one unit die after the boss stunned my fortress and landsknecht and stopped them putting my defence up and its offence down in the middle of the fight, but I got there in the end. Possibly I was overlevelled due to my insistence on mapping out every level in full. I think I was at 14 or 15.
 

jpfriction

(He, Him)
Dark Spire is one of those games I bought day 1 and was super jazzed to dig into and just could not get anywhere in it. I remember some sort of pirate ship puzzle that just stumped me.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
*adds The Dark Spire to the list of games I should have bought several copies of when it was going for next to nothing instead of just the one*
 

Ixo

"This is not my beautiful forum!" - David Byrne
(Hi Guy)
Yeah, when I cited cost as barrier to entry, I meant it.
 

Octopus Prime

Mysterious Contraption
(He/Him)
I’ve been playing Operencia: The Stolen Sun off an on since it came out earlier this year, and I really enjoy it. Theres a bit more of a focus on puzzle solving and navigation than in something like Etrian, but it doesn’t take long for the combat to become toothsome, especially given that theres a finite (but generous) amount of times you can restore your party.
 

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
I already purchased that one on the recommendation of our good Dr. Prime; I think it might be the next game that I play!
 

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
And it was! I'm really enjoying it! Cross-posting:

It reminds me of Grimrock without the real-time combat and with less of a focus on puzzles. I love the fine-grain difficulty settings. After much debate, I went with hard mode combat, but normal everything else; I would have also turned on the limited saves difficulty switch, but the game hard crashed during the tutorial, and I didn't want to risk that being a regular occurrence. Anyway, the combat has been nice and challenging, so I'm pretty happy with my chosen settings. This hole, it was made for me.

ETA: Oh, oh, and I love the potion/grenade crafting system! It breaks it down into these cute little logic puzzles, and once you solve them to create the item once, you just equip it in your potion slot, and get finite charges of it that recharge every time you rest at a campfire. So no sitting on giant stacks of unused potions!
 

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
I’m still plugging away at Etrian IV. I just beat the second labyrinth boss, on my second attempt. The first time I got slaughtered in short order, so I went away and cleared up a few loose ends, knocking off a quest or two, taking on most of the available FOEs, and plugging a few holes in my maps. Arguably this was grinding, but it’s the sort of thing I’d do anyway so no matter. Aside from a few levels this also got me some better equipment. I think I was probably overstrength for the boss, but it did take out two of my team in the second-last round after I’d run out of TP and couldn’t keep my buffs up. If I hadn’t been able to finish it off with a burst in the next round it might have been curtains.

The other key to victory was leaning more into binds. I’ve never really used them much in any EO because I assume it’s too hard to figure out which type of bind any given move is, but in this case it was pretty obvious the magicians in the latter part of the fight were using their heads. The guest character’s multitarget binds were very helpful, since otherwise I just had my sniper’s low-level single target moves. I might respec the sniper and put more points into the bind moves. Alternatively maybe it’s time to mix up my team, which is the most boring one possible (fighter defender healer magician archer)
 
I think the Arcanist is one of the most fun bind-focused classes in any EO game. Also they have a high level ability that resets the resistance enemies build up to status effects after being hit with them, so having an Arcanist makes status effect focused parties much more effective against boss and F.O.E. battles that drag on on for a long time.

Also I just like the flavor of creating and dispelling various wards.
 
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