An unreliable thread about the Sun - talkin' bout Gene Wolfe

[Mokrap of Croton]

I've read through the Book of the New Sun once, which I realize is not enough times. It *was* a lot easier when I quit trying to look up words every other page and just rolled with what I thought they might mean. Of course, the "author" himself tells you as much partway in.

I am currently about 1/4th of the way through Book of the Long Sun. It is a much easier read than New Sun, but by no means something you can just drag your eyes across. I also have Castle of Days, which is a collection of his essays and short stories, on deck.

Anyone else here a fan? WHO ELSE WANTS TO BE BEWILDERED, FRUSTRATED, AND AWESTRUCK?!?

 

[Teaspoon]

Me! Me me me!

....honestly I have little idea what the hell is ever going on and sometimes vaguely wish I was two hundred years on so I could read an annotated version explaining everything.

I do find it curious that you prefer Long Sun tho, having run out of steam by then.

 

[JBear]

....honestly I have little idea what the hell is ever going on and sometimes vaguely wish I was two hundred years on so I could read an annotated version explaining everything.

It just so happens that two of our very own who happen to like Mr. Wolfe quite a lot have a Gene Wolfe podcast that has spent considerable time explaining and breaking down New Sun! (And are currently running through Long Sun.)

I'd say more, but posting a thread title with "Gene Wolfe" in it is enough of a bat notule signal that I'm sure they'll be along.

 

[Bulgakov]

It just so happens that two of our very own who happen to like Mr. Wolfe quite a lot have a Gene Wolfe podcast that has spent considerable time explaining and breaking down New Sun! (And are currently running through Long Sun.)

Slips Jbear a Loonie.

....honestly I have little idea what the hell is ever going on and sometimes vaguely wish I was two hundred years on so I could read an annotated version explaining everything.

If you like podcasts and want to listen to two people who can't stop making bad jokes, one of which is me, have I got a deal for you! We finished our chapter-by-chapter coverage of Book of the New Sun last year, then did Urth of the New Sun, and we literally started Book of the Long Sun this week. I would not say our method is an "exhaustive annotation" by any means, but I do like to think that we help elucidate some of the mysteries of all the Wolfe works that we cover, and I'm a sucker for defining terms.

That said, please don't feel obligated. I think one of the amazing things about Wolfe is that he's fun to re-read and discover on your own.

 

[Patrick]

Alzabo Soup is a great listen. It helped me pick up on some things that I missed in BOTNS, and it was exciting when you got to things that I had figured out on my own.

I also liked the episodes about The Sorcerer’s House a lot.

Any plans to tackle The Mage Knight series?

 

[Bulgakov]

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed them.

Any plans to tackle The Mage Knight series?

Yes, but don't ask when . At our current rate, it will be at least 18 months to 2 years before we get through Long Sun, and we'll probably want to do Short Sun after that!

 

[Dracula]

I picked up BotNS a couple of years ago thanks to a certain podcast and I'm glad I did. It's basically a grimdark Adventure Time with an unreliable narrator and lots of obscure vocabulary from Catholicism. What I really like about these books is attempting to suss out what sort of modern or future tech Severian is describing based on his understanding of his world. There's always something new to see and it's always weirder than what you came from.

For example, just from the first book, it's not especially obvious that the Matachin Tower is actually a spaceship unless you read between the lines. I don't think I picked up on that detail until I listened to the podcast about it.

 

[Mokrap of Croton]

@Teaspoon: I didn't say I *preferred* Long Sun, just that it's easier for me to follow. Not sure yet which I prefer.

@Bulgakov: I will absolutely check that pod out, but probably after I've done another pass through the books on my own, for exactly the reason you mention at the end of your post.

@Dracula: I actually figured that one out on my own, and I consider it one of the greatest achievements of my entire life. I probably really got about 5% of everything else.

 

[Paul le Fou]

I've been feeling due for a re-read of New Sun; it's been...more than ten years? D:

I am wondering whether to read with the podcast, do the podcast for each book to break it up a bit, or do the whole series then the podcast.

I did start listening to the podcast after I finished The House of Cerberus, but I have trouble sitting down to listen to podcasts enough as it is, much less when I want to be following along in a book.

 

[Patrick]

I tried reading each chapter before listening to each episode with The Sorcerer's House, but it didn't fit my reading or listening styles. I kept having to stop reading or stop listening when I was in bed or out for a walk. With BOTNS I just read the whole thing then listened to all of the episodes. It worked better for me and it was still fresh enough.

 

[Mokrap of Croton]

Approaching halfway through the Long Sun. I'll finish all of that, then check out some of the podcast, then at some point go back through New Sun.

I was really worried at one point about Oreb, when Musk whipped his knife at him. However, I see him perched on Silk's shoulder on the cover of the next volume, so I assume he makes it that far haha

 

[Bulgakov]

Bird Good

 

[Wolf]

I just got this series for Christmas. Looking forward to diving in once I'm finished with my current read.

 

[Banach]

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed them.



Yes, but don't ask when . At our current rate, it will be at least 18 months to 2 years before we get through Long Sun, and we'll probably want to do Short Sun after that!

 

[Mokrap of Croton]

Ok, so I'm very very near the end of Litany of the Long Sun (which is the first two books of the Long Sun series combined in one volume), and I will post more thoughts in a bit. Just wanted to get this down quickly, though, as the Some Summations chapter really fucked me up in a good way. I do most of my reading while lying down right before sleep, and I had some intensely vivid dreams after reading that portion. Woke up still feeling off balance.

One thing I found particularly intense (and darkly funny, and also sweet, and sad, and and and) was

Spoiler: SPOILS

poor old Maytera Marble breaking down, losing her train of thought and wandering. Seeing the world as lines of code (either because she is breaking down or because IT'S A SIMULATION (don't tell me if I'm right)). And then finally making her way upstairs to Maytera Rose's room. The way I understood what happened here is that Rose has died, and she is a bio. Marble then ripped her chest open and started pulling organs out, out of her general confusion and assuming she could swap parts with her. Her worry about doing so being based on whether it counted as theft, then rationalizing it because Rose was no longer using the "parts" was hilarious, in a way.

UPDATE: Just remembered that Rose had a lot of artificial parts, even though she is a bio. I guess Marble could have been taking those. Still, "opening her chest" is a gloriously clinical/technical way to talk about cracking open a person's chest, and I suppose that gets to the whole question of the humanity/personness of chems and bios and bios with chem parts, etc.

 

[Wolf]

Just started reading Shadow of the Torturer a few days ago. I'm about a dozen or so chapters in (I think? I'm bad at keeping count). At any rate, I'm at the part where Agia is trying to prepare Severian for his duel, but his severe inability to stay focused while in the gardens is drawing that process out over multiple chapters. Yet it somehow doesn't feel like padding at all. Nothing so far has felt like padding.

I sincerely cannot remember the last time I felt this challenged by a book. I've read lots of large, long books before, having read through the entire Wheel of Time series (and having re-read the first six or seven books quite a few times, as preparation for the next upcoming book whenever a new one was on the horizon), but those are just that: large and long. Shadow of the Torturer is dense. There's just a ton of stuff happening; the vocabulary is really the least of it. Over the last decade or so, I've gotten into a lamentable habit of skimming periodically when the prose gets a bit dull, just reading the first sentence or two of a paragraph before moving on to the next, and it's depressing how little I feel I've missed by doing this. That really doesn't work here. Not that I find myself wanting to very much.

I did manage to figure out the bit about Matachin Tower, but really, that's only the tip of a very, very strange iceberg. The weirdness here is layers deep, which is a good thing, at least for me. I'm looking forward to more.

 

[Dracula]

The thing that really impressed me about the BotNS books (I still haven't read book 4 yet), was how all those little details feel inconsequential at first, and then later on you'll realize that they are nearly all vitally important in some way, if not to the main plot then to understanding the world. One of my favorite things about Wolfe's style is how he names his chapters - there will often be some featured character, place, or detail which is present in the chapter but is only named by the chapter title. It's all very rewarding to piece together.

 

[Mokrap of Croton]

Finished the first volume (so the first two novels) of the Long Sun.

Spoiler: spoils of a war you didn't realize you were fighting

I am just thoroughly impressed with how the revolt for the Calde is obscured so effectively even without New Sun's first person unreliable narrator! Silk's naïve ignorance of it (if that's really what it is) is translated through the third person narrator (if that's really what it is) excellently.

Also, the bungled "rescue" at the end was a superb, brutal, and darkly hilarious twist. And RIGHT AFTER so much bonding with Crane, too! I had to re-read that part to be sure I understood what happened and just audibly said, "Goddamn."

 

[Lokii]

It always gets me, even though I know it's coming.

 

[Bulgakov]

Just wanted to throw out there, if anyone's interested, our podcast is cohosting a readalong of Book of the New Sun with Media Death Cult on youtube. It includes a discord with discussions and some in-depth videos.

Officially the readalong starts in February (with Shadow of the Torturer, then one book a month through Urth of the New Sun), but it's already started early. A lot of good discussion is happening already!

 

[Patrick]

Very cool! I’ll look up the discord. I’m about due for a second read anyway.

 

[Bulgakov]

Very cool! I’ll look up the discord. I’m about due for a second read anyway.

https://discord.gg/zzXsc9x should you be so inclined.

 

[Violentvixen]

After we did A Borrowed Man for the TT book club last year I was curious to read more of his stuff, because I could tell I liked his world building but a lot of the dialogue didn't click for me. I checked out this collection from the library after y'all recommended several of the stories in this book.

I'm still only about halfway through but I think my original opinion still stands. The worlds going on in all of these stories are great, and The Fifth Head of Cerberus is definitely a highlight so far. But The Death of Dr. Island kept coming to a screeching halt for me, longer dialogues were tought and I kept trying to go back and reread but just struggled through it. Definitely enjoying myself overall and glad you guys introduced me to him!

 

[John]

After we did A Borrowed Man for the TT book club last year I was curious to read more of his stuff, because I could tell I liked his world building but a lot of the dialogue didn't click for me. I checked out this collection from the library after y'all recommended several of the stories in this book.

I'm still only about halfway through but I think my original opinion still stands. The worlds going on in all of these stories are great, and The Fifth Head of Cerberus is definitely a highlight so far. But The Death of Dr. Island kept coming to a screeching halt for me, longer dialogues were tought and I kept trying to go back and reread but just struggled through it. Definitely enjoying myself overall and glad you guys introduced me to him!

Yeah, I'm with you, Wolfe's world building is top notch, but his dialog is not what I'd call natural in any sort. It's got its own flavors, and it's best when he's intentionally creating dialects or terminology out of thin air (or very obscure OED references). It can add an alien feel to conversations, or like it's been machine translated but not localized. Sometimes it's like the character's writing what they wish they would've said in the moment, and not what was actually said. Such is the problem with unreliable narrators!

I like the appeal of not nominating authors two years in a row for the book club, but I'm still going to push for PEACE for the 2023 club. It's one I think about reading a ton, even though I've only read half of it. I've read enough to have the spoilers worked out, but I don't remember the dialog being very stilted (or if it was, it kinda fits with the themes of the book). I think it's best to go in with a clean slate though.

 

[Bulgakov]

Just a reminder that our BOTNS read-along starts Tuesday. The discussion discord is already hopping!

 

[Paul le Fou]

I found and immediately picked up a 2-in-1 edition of The Wizard Knight yesterday. I actually know little or nothing about it besides "there's a wizard and there's a knight (and they're the same person maybe?)" but I've had it on my radar for a good long while.

Now for it to sit on my shelf for 3-6 years while I work through my backlog!

 

[Exposition Owl]

I found and immediately picked up a 2-in-1 edition of The Wizard Knight yesterday. I actually know little or nothing about it besides "there's a wizard and there's a knight (and they're the same person maybe?)" but I've had it on my radar for a good long while.

Now for it to sit on my shelf for 3-6 years while I work through my backlog!

That one might have even more than the usual amount of sexism, but it also has one of my favorite cosmologies in fantasy literature. Enjoy!