"It feels different this time..." - The new Doctor Who Thread

Kazin · Sep 16, 2020

Phantoon said:
You're going to watch all of the Sixth Doctor in order? You poor soul.

Are you blogging your enjoyment / torment? Would be an interesting read.

Not blogging it, just writing one tweet per episode, one episode per day. Starts here, if you're interested. Been at it for over a year now lol

I'm more worried about the latter half of the Tom Baker era - I found the Graham Williams era (City of Death and a few others aside) extremely samey and dull. At least the Sixth Doctor era is bad in interesting ways, and is relatively short. Plus I do like a few of his stories - Vengeance on Varos and Revelation of the Daleks are both good, imo.

Phantoon · Sep 16, 2020

Ooh, that'll be an interesting read, I can see already

Kazin · Sep 16, 2020

Phantoon said:
Ooh, that'll be an interesting read, I can see already

If you like blurry pictures of TV screens, you are in for a treat

lol but thanks! I've actually really been enjoying it. I got through the missing episodes and the Pertwee era, which were my big concerns going into it. Seeing the evolution of the show in order has made me appreciate stories I otherwise overlooked, especially in the Hartnell and Pertwee eras.

Going to be interesting when I do get to the 80s... I like the 80s overall, even if there are extremely low lows in parts of that decade.

Phantoon · Sep 16, 2020

There's a certain ambience to some of the more avant-garde British serial of the sixties that I really love. I can't quite put my finger on it but the Diana Rigg episodes of The Avengers have it too.

Kazin · Sep 16, 2020

Phantoon said:
There's a certain ambience to some of the more avant-garde British serial of the sixties that I really love. I can't quite put my finger on it but the Diana Rigg episodes of The Avengers have it too.

Doctor Who never does feel the same way as it does in the 60s - it's recognizably the show that lasted for decades, but as you say, there's this ambiance to it in the 60s that it never quite recaptures after Patrick Troughton goes away. Maybe it's just a black and white thing.

I have enormous gaps in my British television knowledge, though. I've basically watched some modern British drama my wife likes, classic Doctor Who, I, Claudius*, and Fawlty Towers. I really need to watch some other stuff.

*I, Claudius, for anyone reading this, is absolutely incredible and I highly recommend it. Packed with great actors and a gripping plot, I binge watched it in like two gos lol

Phantoon · Sep 16, 2020

I, Claudius is something really special! I'll have a think about other things that may be worth watching. The Box Of Delights has Troughton in it, and is therefore worth watching regardless of anything else.

Kirin · Sep 16, 2020

Was spending time on other things last night so we only watched Nightmare in Silver. I liked it, though it didn't feel nearly as "Gaiman-y" as Doctor's Wife did. Warwick Davis was a delight, and I wasn't paying enough attention to catch his twist ahead of time. The Cybermen are obviously extra Borg-y here, but then they've always been just a hop away (or the other way around, chronologically, of course). Smith was obviously having a grand old time playing two parts at once. And Clara got to do a good bit on her own, that's always nice too.

Meanwhile I tracked down the episodes I'll need coming up, which is still ridiculously not streamlined. Day of isn't in any season *or* the Xmas Specials pack, and bewilderingly it didn't even show up on Prime's "people who bought this also buy" list, I had to search from scratch to find it in a 50th Anniversary stuff pack and buy it individually. The good news is that pack also contained the Night of short available in HD for free. Just to double-check... I'm supposed to watch Night before Day but after Name, right? And then Time is last. They don't make this easy, lol.

Kazin · Sep 16, 2020

Yep, the order goes:

1. Name of the Doctor
2. Night of the Doctor
3. Day of the Doctor
4. Time of the Doctor

Nightmare in Silver is hated by fandom, probably because yeah, it's not as good as Doctor's Wife. Gaiman himself has said he's not happy with it for various reasons. I don't hate it to the degree most of fandom does, but it's still like the rest of series 7B - not great.

Phantoon · Sep 16, 2020

I like Nightmare In Silver, although it struggles in comparison to The Doctor's Wife (what doesn't?). However, I think later Doctor Who serials (and Spare Parts) proves that the Cybermen are fundamentally more scary when they're low-tech - making them more robotty removes the fundamental horror of what they are. They are plenty of smashy robots, but zombie enlightened cyborgs are rarer.

Kazin · Sep 16, 2020

(series 12 spoilers)

I think they should make a Cybermen story where their heads fly around and shoot lasers out of their eyes

now that would be scary

Phantoon · Sep 16, 2020

They should make one with miniature Daleks

"WAIT THAT'S NOT A PEPPER POT"

Kazin · Sep 16, 2020

Phantoon said:
They should make one with miniature Daleks

"WAIT THAT'S NOT A PEPPER POT"

you know my post is literally what Chibnall did in series 12, right? Did they do your post with Daleks and I'm just forgetting? Should I spoil my post for Kirin? lol

Phantoon · Sep 16, 2020

Kazin said:
you know my post is literally what Chibnall did in series 12, right? Did they do your post with Daleks and I'm just forgetting? Should I spoil my post for Kirin? lol

oh no, I think my brain lost that among the rest of the even stupider things with the episode, it was quite a list

ugh, that was so terrible

Kazin · Sep 16, 2020

Phantoon said:
oh no, I think my brain lost that among the rest of the even stupider things with the episode, it was quite a list

ugh, that was so terrible

the scene I'm referring to happened right at the beginning, so yeah, it's easy to forget, because yeah.... it really is quite a list lol

Phantoon · Sep 17, 2020

Tardis Eruditorum Volume 7 is finally on Amazon! Now I have to wait until lunchtime to devour it, boo
by which I mean "read", I'm not going to be munching on my Kindle

Kirin · Sep 17, 2020

Name of the Doctor felt a little slight to me as a big arc finisher, though I imagine that's partly because some of the big "ending" beats right now are coming up in the specials, and partly because I was spoiled on one of its biggest reveals since I already knew from general fandom exposure that John Hurt plays some cheatingly un-numbered "War Doctor". It does explain the central mystery of extra Claras well enough if a bit perfunctorily. I guess after the season opener I was expecting more action from the Great Intelligence other than it just showing up to be extremely pissy at the Doctor personally after just the two defeats we saw on-screen. All that aside, it's not like I didn't like it; fun imagery and more of my new fave side characters even if they didn't get to do a whole lot.

Also watched Night of the Doctor - so, that's gotta be Eight, who only showed up previously in a mediocre TV movie, right? Nice to finally be getting filled in on this Time War stuff that's been lurking about in the backstory for the last seven seasons at any rate.

Aside, while poking around recent stuff on wikipedia, I randomly came across a link to Doctor Who and the Curse of Fatal Death. I wonder if that's streaming anywhere 'cause it sounds like a hoot... have you folks seen it?

Kazin · Sep 17, 2020

Kirin said:
Name of the Doctor felt a little slight to me as a big arc finisher, though I imagine that's partly because some of the big "ending" beats right now are coming up in the specials, and partly because I was spoiled on one of its biggest reveals since I already knew from general fandom exposure that John Hurt plays some cheatingly un-numbered "War Doctor". It does explain the central mystery of extra Claras well enough if a bit perfunctorily. I guess after the season opener I was expecting more action from the Great Intelligence other than it just showing up to be extremely pissy at the Doctor personally after just the two defeats we saw on-screen. All that aside, it's not like I didn't like it; fun imagery and more of my new fave side characters even if they didn't get to do a whole lot.

Also watched Night of the Doctor - so, that's gotta be Eight, who only showed up previously in a mediocre TV movie, right? Nice to finally be getting filled in on this Time War stuff that's been lurking about in the backstory for the last seven seasons at any rate.

Yeah, I was hoping you weren't spoiled on John Hurt, long shot as it was, so that cliffhanger was probably a bit underwhelming. At the time, it was like fucking WHAT?! lol

And yeah, that's eight - who only appeared on TV in the crap TV movie, and Night of the Doctor. He continues to be in dozens and dozens of audio stories of wildly varying quality, but it's generally agreed in fandom that McGann is great in the role, and the problem with his character was it had to be in the garbage TV movie. Which I agree with! McGann is wonderful.

Aside, while poking around recent stuff on wikipedia, I randomly came across a link to Doctor Who and the Curse of Fatal Death. I wonder if that's streaming anywhere 'cause it sounds like a hoot... have you folks seen it?

It's on Youtube:

It's more of a series of jokes about classic Who and has some pretty Moffat-y gender essentialism shit in it, but it's alright. I much prefer The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot, which was written by the Fifth Doctor Peter Davison and stars him, Colin Baker, and Sylvester McCoy, but don't watch that until after you've seen Day of the Doctor. I don't think it's on YT, either, sadly...

Kirin · Sep 18, 2020

Day of the Doctor - Well that was pretty bloody fantastic. Loved it. Was not expecting an alien-invasion-of-the-week sandwiched into the multi-season meta-arc climax, but it actually worked, and it was clever how the two interacted. Great to see Tennant again, and all three at once was a darn good time. Nice twist too. In too much of a hurry right now to say more, and about to go on a trip so I probably won't get to Time 'til next week, but yeah, good stuff.

Kazin · Sep 18, 2020

Kirin said:
Day of the Doctor - Well that was pretty bloody fantastic. Loved it. Was not expecting an alien-invasion-of-the-week sandwiched into the multi-season meta-arc climax, but it actually worked, and it was clever how the two interacted. Great to see Tennant again, and all three at once was a darn good time. Nice twist too. In too much of a hurry right now to say more, and about to go on a trip so I probably won't get to Time 'til next week, but yeah, good stuff.

I'm sure you'll have no interest, and fair enough if not, frankly, but as good as Day is - and I bloody love it - Moffat did a novelization of it that is even better and funnier and more poignant.

Sorry to push a bunch of ancillary material at you, please feel free to ignore me lol

Phantoon · Sep 18, 2020

Kirin said:
Day of the Doctor - Well that was pretty bloody fantastic. Loved it. Was not expecting an alien-invasion-of-the-week sandwiched into the multi-season meta-arc climax, but it actually worked, and it was clever how the two interacted. Great to see Tennant again, and all three at once was a darn good time. Nice twist too. In too much of a hurry right now to say more, and about to go on a trip so I probably won't get to Time 'til next week, but yeah, good stuff.

For me, it's one of the greatest Doctor Who stories - they had to do something that celebrated the 50 years of history and tell a satisfying story and they absolutely nailed it. At one point he had to have a back up story because outside of Jenna Coleman nobody was still under contract and he had a backup story with just Clara in it.

The War Doctor is just fantastic - the Doctor on the day it wasn't possible to be the Doctor. Moffat was talking about how the idea came about (Eccleston wouldn't take part and no way would 8 have triggered the Moment) and he idly threw out the idea. Everyone loved it but he freaked out and didn't want to do it. "I'll mess up the numbering! People have tattoos!" After he was talked back into doing it his list of famous actors (and it had to be famous to pull this off) who were suitable looked like this:

1) John Hurt
2) errrr...

And nobody had even spoken to John Hurt and time was running out. Fortunately John Hurt was up for it, and he did an incredible job with his 90 minutes as the Doctor.

Also, as of now, the Zygons have never been in a story that isn't really good.

Phantoon · Sep 18, 2020

Kazin said:
I'm sure you'll have no interest, and fair enough if not, frankly, but as good as Day is - and I bloody love it - Moffat did a novelization of it that is even better and funnier and more poignant.

Sorry to push a bunch of ancillary material at you, please feel free to ignore me lol

Also, listen to Kazin. Kazin is very, very right. It's an incredible novelization.

Kazin · Sep 18, 2020

Phantoon said:
Also, as of now, the Zygons have never been in a story that isn't really good.

This, 100%. Zygon = Quality, every time, classic series or new.

Kazin · Sep 18, 2020

Phantoon said:
Also, listen to Kazin. Kazin is very, very right. It's an incredible novelization.

Like, my wife read the novelization and loved it, and she hasn't even seen the most recent season of the show. She's read no other Doctor Who material, non fiction or fiction, and has no interest in doing so. It's that good.

Kazin · Sep 18, 2020

Look at the sort of thing he does - this is just after relating the events of Night of the Doctor:

He plays around with his plots in fun little ways like this through the whole book. It's quite Douglas Adams-y in places. God, looking at this, I'm tempted to reread it lol

EDIT: Here's how he introduces the 11th Doctor:

I'll stop now, you get the point. I love it so much.

Zef · Sep 18, 2020

"Now that is skinny, that is proper skinny! It's like a special effect!" is one of my favorite Eleven lines, even though he's just as much of a twig as Ten[nant].

The War Doctor is interesting in that, at the point at which we meet him (hours before he's gone, basically) he's nowhere near as dreadful or horrifying as Eleven's earlier description of him would suggest. He's still kindly and warm and eager to help whoever needs it, he's just... worn out. I suppose that Eleven is referring to his actions up until that point, or that the (presumed) dimensional genocide of the Moment was the unforgivable sin that drove Nine and Ten's personalities to where they were. Or maybe it's Moffat's deliberate display that, even at his absolute nadir, the Doctor is still the Doctor.

Kazin · Sep 18, 2020

Zef said:
"Now that is skinny, that is proper skinny! It's like a special effect!" is one of my favorite Eleven lines, even though he's just as much of a twig as Ten[nant].

Ten: "They're not sandshoes!"
War: "...yes, they are!"

which reads dull in text, but Hurt delivers it so well it makes me laugh every time. So many good lines in Day.

Phantoon · Sep 18, 2020

The whole bit where they come up with an incredibly clever time travelling plan to open a door and Clara bursts through and it wasn't locked is a particular favourite. Then if course that ties into the finale.

And the fact that the emotional core of it all is a man learning to come to terms with himselves

Phantoon · Sep 21, 2020

The Radio Times did a poll of the best Doctor. The rules allowed for 8 but not for the War Doctor or the Fugitive Doctor. The results were:

1. David Tennant 10,518 / 21%
2. Jodie Whittaker 10,423 / 21%
3. Peter Capaldi 8,897 / 18%
4. Matt Smith 7,637 / 16%
5. Tom Baker 3,977 / 8%
6. William Hartnell 1,983 / 4%
7. Paul McGann 1,427 / 3%
8. Christopher Eccleston 1,144 / 2%
9. Jon Pertwee 1,038 / 2%
10. Patrick Troughton 915 / 2%
11. Sylvester McCoy 462 / 1%
12. Colin Baker 359 / 1%
13. Peter Davison 351 / 1%

I think these sort of polls are more a question of viewership than actual quality.

Kazin · Sep 21, 2020

Phantoon said:
I think these sort of polls are more a question of viewership than actual quality.

Hard to say - a lot more people saw Pertwee stories than McGann, for example. How is McGann in the middle of the pack, anyway?!

Phantoon · Sep 21, 2020

Kazin said:
Hard to say - a lot more people saw Pertwee stories than McGann, for example. How is McGann in the middle of the pack, anyway?!

You've got me there. He's squarely in the "could have been a great Doctor if his era wasn't pants" camp. I suspect that it comes from the fact that Doctor Who isn't cult viewing here, it's mainstream. I don't see mainstream fans who were watching Doctor Who in 1970 being desperate to do a Radio Times poll, so it favours the newer stuff by default. Then the older stuff is the fan contingent voting.

Also, how's Hartnell there? To have seen his stuff and remember it you'd have to be 70-odd, and huge bits of his era are downright missing so that's the only chance you had to see it.

"It feels different this time..." - The new Doctor Who Thread

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