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Teach me about CRPGs

FelixSH

(He/Him)
Thanks. Made a Paladin, Undead Hunter because "immunity to one of the most annoying status effects" sounds pretty great.

I had to roll my eyes, when, while rolling the character, I got my first 18/xx strength. I'm sure there is a super good reason, why it can't be 19, but it seems really bizarre.

I guess, I can just ditch the characters that I got in the starter dungeon? Or are Minsk and Janeira like super interesting? I mean, no idea how the characters in this game are, but it seems like they are good, from what I read? And I assume that new ones will be more interesting, than ones from the first game. Not sure if I should spoiler this, but it seems sensible, considering the thread.

I'm going to keep Imoen, whenever I get her back, because she seems to have something interesting going on.

Or, how do I recognize interesting characters for my party? I hope, they tend to be more immediately interesting, than the other dude I found in the starter dungeon. Or do I just have to keep people around, and just see if their banter is fun enough, to keep them around? I mean, not just mechanically, at least as I understand, having them in the party can lead to interesting quests, or something?
 
I had to roll my eyes, when, while rolling the character, I got my first 18/xx strength. I'm sure there is a super good reason, why it can't be 19, but it seems really bizarre.

Yeah, 18/xx strength is an artifact of old D&D rules where there were a bunch of increments of max 18 strength, but in this game it basically never matters because if someone has 18/xx strength they're probably a character where you want to give items to improve strength to anyway, so you'll just blow past that system into 19 or more strength. It's funny because there's all these bizarre increments of 18, but once you're into 19 or more that goes away again.

I guess, I can just ditch the characters that I got in the starter dungeon? Or are Minsk and Janeira like super interesting? I mean, no idea how the characters in this game are, but it seems like they are good, from what I read? And I assume that new ones will be more interesting, than ones from the first game. Not sure if I should spoiler this, but it seems sensible, considering the thread.

I'm going to keep Imoen, whenever I get her back, because she seems to have something interesting going on.

Or, how do I recognize interesting characters for my party? I hope, they tend to be more immediately interesting, than the other dude I found in the starter dungeon. Or do I just have to keep people around, and just see if their banter is fun enough, to keep them around? I mean, not just mechanically, at least as I understand, having them in the party can lead to interesting quests, or something?

I don't think that the new characters are necessarily more interesting, or the ones in the intro dungeon are necessarily worse or less interesting.

Minsc is a beloved mascot character for the series. I don't care for him at all, either mechanically or his personality, but he's definitely a fan-favorite.

Jaheira is arguably one of the companions who is most directly tied into the main narrative of the game. She gets a lot more development than she did in BG1, and she has a long and involved personal quest, for reasons that you can probably guess if you used her in the first game, where she was one of the first companions the game directs you to meet. Also, I like to use her because Fighter/Druid is a fun class. If you look at her stats, they're also improved relative to the first game, where she many find her to be underpowered.

Yoshimo also has a quest tied to the main story. If you want to prioritize the rescue mission, it might be worth keeping him so you can do it as soon as you get a party of 6 and enough money to move the main plot forward. The character you're rescuing is also good enough to be your primary utility thief 99% of the time. She's another dual classed Thief-->Wizard so she'll never get better at it (no more Thief levels), but she's better than Nalia (who was actually added to the game as a kind of early-game replacement for the character to be rescued, so her Thieving skills will not hold up in more difficult areas).

Many (most?) side quest-lines in Athkatla will eventually lead you to a companion. In general, everyone but Imeon you find by doing side-quests. Some companions have quests that they'll tell you about right away and that are time sensitive, and they can leave permanently if you don't follow up on them soon enough. Others have quests that they'll start talking about once they've been around for a long time. These trigger somewhat randomly, which in some cases can unfortunately mean never. I used Jan Jansen more or less the entire game, and he never brought up his personal quest.

It's hard to say who you'll find interesting. I honestly like most of them, and there's a wide range of personalities and tones. If you just start to explore Athkatla and take quests, you'll quickly find more companions than you need. If there's a particular role you need filled mechanically, I could try to suggest options.
 
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As I replay Mass Effect the first, I'm realizing what a CRPG it is, especially compared to its sequels. CRPG through and through, with both the highs and lows of the genre on full display.
 
The Shadowrun games are out on consoles now, for anyone interested in this genre but who doesn't play PC games:


If you only try one, make it the middle game (Dragonfall). I like them all, but the first game is a bit too much of a proof-of-concept experiment and the last one (Hong Kong) is great but maybe a little overstuffed.

(Apparently the Switch version has performance issues, not sure how severe...)
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
Yeah, 18/xx strength is an artifact of old D&D rules where there were a bunch of increments of max 18 strength, but in this game it basically never matters because if someone has 18/xx strength they're probably a character where you want to give items to improve strength to anyway, so you'll just blow past that system into 19 or more strength. It's funny because there's all these bizarre increments of 18, but once you're into 19 or more that goes away again.



I don't think that the new characters are necessarily more interesting, or the ones in the intro dungeon are necessarily worse or less interesting.

Minsc is a beloved mascot character for the series. I don't care for him at all, either mechanically or his personality, but he's definitely a fan-favorite.

Jaheira is arguably one of the companions who is most directly tied into the main narrative of the game. She gets a lot more development than she did in BG1, and she has a long and involved personal quest, for reasons that you can probably guess if you used her in the first game, where she was one of the first companions the game directs you to meet. Also, I like to use her because Fighter/Druid is a fun class. If you look at her stats, they're also improved relative to the first game, where she many find her to be underpowered.

Yoshimo also has a quest tied to the main story. If you want to prioritize the rescue mission, it might be worth keeping him so you can do it as soon as you get a party of 6 and enough money to move the main plot forward. The character you're rescuing is also good enough to be your primary utility thief 99% of the time. She's another dual classed Thief-->Wizard so she'll never get better at it (no more Thief levels), but she's better than Nalia (who was actually added to the game as a kind of early-game replacement for the character to be rescued, so her Thieving skills will not hold up in more difficult areas).

Many (most?) side quest-lines in Athkatla will eventually lead you to a companion. In general, everyone but Imeon you find by doing side-quests. Some companions have quests that they'll tell you about right away and that are time sensitive, and they can leave permanently if you don't follow up on them soon enough. Others have quests that they'll start talking about once they've been around for a long time. These trigger somewhat randomly, which in some cases can unfortunately mean never. I used Jan Jansen more or less the entire game, and he never brought up his personal quest.

It's hard to say who you'll find interesting. I honestly like most of them, and there's a wide range of personalities and tones. If you just start to explore Athkatla and take quests, you'll quickly find more companions than you need. If there's a particular role you need filled mechanically, I could try to suggest options.
Thanks for all the information. I just find it overwhelming, getting so many characters in such a short amount of time. After just reaching the slums, and walking into the circus tent, my party is already full. And with me not knowing, who might be interesting or not, I have a hard time deciding who to keep. I guess that will be a question soon enough. But Jaheira already starts to chime in a lot, so that's a plus (I only remember having her in the first game, my memory of that game is extremely spotty), and I think I'll keep her. And it's good to know, that I can ditch Minsc without losing too much. He is fun, but doesn't seem to offer much else.

One more question: Do the quests get better? I heard they are better than in the first game (my spotty memory remembers most of them being rather simple). And the stuff in the circus tent was fun, but I hoped to be able to solve it without violence, which seems impossible. There were certainly nice touches, but every time the game sends mobs at me, that I can't reason with at all, I'm a bit sad. Are there more complex quests, where I can find other outcomes?
The end was just comical, when circus guy asks me to take healer/mage girl into my party, because she can learn so much more from me, despite only knowing each other for ten seconds, or so. Also: Ist healer/mage girl worth keeping? Aside from her class being useful, in general.
 
What I'd say about feeling overwhelmed is that you don't need to nail down your final party right away. Feel free to experiment and try out companions. See who you like to use and how they interact with each other before settling in.

I think quests are more complex and interesting in BG2 than the first game, and some have nonviolent or less violent resolutions, but for the most part this is a really combat and dungeon dive focused game. I've been playing the Pillars of Eternity games that are kind of a spiritual successor to these infinity engine games, and I've found those allow for more nonviolent resolutions than the Baldur's Gate games did. I also like that nonviolent resolutions in the PoE games are not always the best resolutions, but sometimes they are, depending on the circumstances at hand.

Is the circus guy who says Aerie should go with you Quayle? It's definitely abrupt, but technically he is familiar with you from the first game, either from being a party member or just because he was a resident of Baldur's Gate when you saved the city.

I used Aerie for the whole game, personally. She's a companion with a lot of story, but she's a divisive character for a few reasons. Some consider her to be whiny and annoying. Some don't like how her tragic past is written. She has a potential romance with some characters, including your protagonist, and there is a lot of debate about how well these are handled. As a multiclass Cleric/Mage she'll always be worse at each individual class than a single classed version of one of those, but on the other hand she's just got so many spellcharges that she always seems to have something to contribute even when single-class casters might be starting to run out of things to do.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
I'm now 15 hours into the game, and with time, it clicked more. The beginning is just REALLY overwhelming, giving you a group of four, including spellcasters with a bunch of spells, that you would need to read and think about, experiment and such. Too much information, for the start (but I understand that the idea is, that you have played BG I and are familiar with D&D in general, so that critizism isn't really fair).

By now, I am more comfortable with spells (but healing spells aren't really made for use in-combat, right? They take so long). Still mostly basic, because on easy, just hitting stuff works out most of the time. I got a bit annoyed, when I had two party members complaining about me not doing their time-sensitive quests, and being bombarded with new quests just by going where I needed to go for the quests I did. Would prefer, if quest-givers where more passive, and wait for you to talk to them. But it does give the game a bit of a unique feel.

Favourite quest was the stuff in Umar Hills, felt like it had a bit of everything - finding out what is happening, multiple parties where you could talk something out with one, puzzle-solving, combat, a dungeon that was more interesting, than just "kill everything". But the quests are quite diverse in general, even if many of them contain slaying enemies, there is often more to them, than just that.
 
I'm now 15 hours into the game, and with time, it clicked more. The beginning is just REALLY overwhelming, giving you a group of four, including spellcasters with a bunch of spells, that you would need to read and think about, experiment and such. Too much information, for the start (but I understand that the idea is, that you have played BG I and are familiar with D&D in general, so that critizism isn't really fair).

By now, I am more comfortable with spells (but healing spells aren't really made for use in-combat, right? They take so long). Still mostly basic, because on easy, just hitting stuff works out most of the time. I got a bit annoyed, when I had two party members complaining about me not doing their time-sensitive quests, and being bombarded with new quests just by going where I needed to go for the quests I did. Would prefer, if quest-givers where more passive, and wait for you to talk to them. But it does give the game a bit of a unique feel.

Favourite quest was the stuff in Umar Hills, felt like it had a bit of everything - finding out what is happening, multiple parties where you could talk something out with one, puzzle-solving, combat, a dungeon that was more interesting, than just "kill everything". But the quests are quite diverse in general, even if many of them contain slaying enemies, there is often more to them, than just that.

I'm glad it's working for you more. There's definitely some inertia to getting used to everything going on, in and out of combat. The first game had you walk through a bunch of wide open fields and little villages, and then you arrive at a huge town with half the game's content after you've eased into things. BG2 really just throws you into the deep end of an enormous town with most of the game's content and free access to the world map pretty much immediately.

You can use healing in battle, but as you observe they're very slow and often it means something went wrong. Don't hesitate to use the potions you find instead. An exception is eventually you'll get (or maybe already have) Mass Cure. This is an AoE heal, and that makes it worth casting, while single target healing is often best done by a potion. A Cleric's best spells are the buffs, so ideally that's where you get the most bang for the buck with spell charges. Later, pre-buffing with certain spells to prevent specific bad status afflictions essentially becomes a requirement.

Happy to hear you enjoyed Umar Hills. I was worried the combat might drive you off, but I do think that's a good example of BG2 when it's working well. I also like the companion you can pick up there (Mazzy).

Quest givers seeking you out and demanding you do something ASAP can be pretty stressful, especially if you're in the middle of something else or if you already had something else you wanted to get to next. My memory is that in BG2 very few of these are actually time sensitive, but a handful are. I think the actual time sensitive quests are all for party companions, who get frustrated with you if you ignore them when they need you to do something for them. A modern game would probably mark real time sensitive quests more explicitly in the UI, because it's a little ambiguous in BG2.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
Base game beaten. At some point, still in chapter 2, I had a problem with an enemy and turned on storymode difficulty, which made me stop trying completely. Which worked well enough, I mainly wanted to explore the world, do the quests, stuff like that. The combat never really gripped me, even before, and I don't think it would add too much to my enjoyment of the game. I'll probably try playing it on normal difficulty, if I replay it, just to test that out.

But I think the game has still a focus on combat that is too much for me. At 25 hours, I started to get tired of sidequests in chapter 2, and started to go on through the main quest. Honestly, while the side quests can have fun stories, I found the main story mainly boring, and no matter how many dream sequences you show me, the main character is just a boring nobody. I no, silent protagonists might just not be my thing, so maybe don't look at this as judgement. Dunno, I started to really like my companions, and they shine throughout their own quests (and Jan Jansen shines every time he says anything, it's like I have Abe Simpson in my party), but they are pretty much non-entities outside of their own quests. Again, probably just a sort of style that doesn't work with me, they do chime in often enough, if they have something to say (well, some do). I just would have liked more. But that's just not what games like Baldurs Gate are.

But with the later chapters being short on side quests, the main story being uninteresting and the combat being without any teeth at all, there wasn't much there. I still wanted to see how it ends, but I feel like that was mainly momentum from chapter 2.

Still, I understand now why this game has its reputation. It feels very different from BG 1, actually, but the only thing that I can clearly put forwards as an argument is the massively improved quality of the side quests. Elsewise, I guess BG 2 feels less like a dungeon crawler than the first one? Maybe, I don't know.

There was a bit of interesting stuff about the villain, but I wished that had been explored more. Too little, too late, for me.

Whatever, good game. I actually had it, when I was 16 or so, but was turned off by something, not sure what (I guess the combat, and how it was way too much at once, for someone who never had played D&D before). A shame, had I gotten into it, I would have sunk a ton of hours into it.
 

That Old Chestnut

A E S T H E T I C
(he/him)
Every Spiderweb game is genius. They tend to be more mechanically straightforward than the big established games in the genre without losing depth, if that interests you as someone starting out. Extremely solid game design and writing; evocative and addictive. Plus there's a ton of them and they're all cheap. I can't recommend strongly enough if the bare-bones presentation isn't a deal breaker.
I actually grabbed their bundle during the last Steam sale on this recommendation, and gave Escape From the Pit a try. I've been pleased so far! Up to level 17 or so character-wise, and have been bouncing back and forth between improving my rep in Freehold so I can hopefully get some of the better spells for cheaper, and working up enough wherewithal to finally tackle King Micha's quest to slay the slith warlord. because those guys were kicking my shit in for a while there.

I love the spiders. Even the asshole ones!

My team set up includes a physical tank with a side focus on cave lore, a dual-wielding fighter/rogue type with a side focus on tool use, a healer, and a mage (both of the magic folks have some First Aid and Arcane Lore too). Haven't really bothered focusing on physical ranged much because the allure of the Backstab bonus is just Too Strong.

All in all, it's been a lot of fun chewing on this one!

Might finally give Geneforge a try, too. I've already had the entire series for way longer than this last big sale because monsters, but never got around to playing it because executive paralysis.
 
I thought that the kingdom management time pressure in Pathfinder: Kingmaker might be too stressful or annoying, but it's dangerously addictive. They combined a very simple Number Go Up idle game with a CRPG, where you the way to pass time to make Number Go Up is to travel from place to place on the world map or rest to heal your party. It creates a very, very dangerous "One More Turn" type of situation, where to get another turn you are finding and clearing RPG dungeons. Turning time into a resource (main quests all have deadlines) that also rewards you when you spend it is one of the better solutions to the problem of how to Rests in Infinity Engine style RPGs.

The writing is not at all to my taste compared to the Pillars of Eternity games, but it's getting better as the game goes on. Early on, there are way too many conversations that seem to info-dump you by what feels like just putting information from Pathfinder handbooks into dialogue trees. Pillars of Eternity has a reputation for being overly wordy or inscrutable, but its characters are always having conversations, in character. In Kingmaker, there are too many moments where characters just become the Pathfinder Wiki for a while. Judging by sales and online discourse, apparently a lot of CRPG players prefer the straightforwardness of the Pathfinder approach, but I really don't.

Another thing I noticed looking for the music that plays during certain scene moments is that a lot of people are really angry at certain plot twists and take them extremely personally. Lots of comments like, "This upsetting event made me feel upset! Terrible game design." I was looking for the song on YouTube because I found it one of the times when the narrative was actually working for me because it was starting to feel less rote and multiple plot threads were beginning to come together. I don't get it. Oh well.

Anyway, I'm really enjoying the game a lot but feeling extremely out of synch with its playerbase.
 
Another thing I noticed looking for the music that plays during certain scene moments is that a lot of people are really angry at certain plot twists and take them extremely personally. Lots of comments like, "This upsetting event made me feel upset! Terrible game design." I was looking for the song on YouTube because I found it one of the times when the narrative was actually working for me because it was starting to feel less rote and multiple plot threads were beginning to come together. I don't get it. Oh well.

Anyway, I'm really enjoying the game a lot but feeling extremely out of synch with its playerbase.
The overall writing direction definitely feels... idk more stiff for lack of a better way to put it compared to Pillars I agree. I still ended up enjoying it nearly as much just because I barely know anything about Pathfinder. But yeah I noticed that trend in the playerbase too. It felt weird because having gotten through it all and seeing how things throughout the game start connecting together and looking back and making sense of things I didn't quite catch was AMAZING. I absolutely love when a narrative can pull this sort of thing off well and I thought Kingmaker did it VERY well.

Few things get me to invest as deeply into an RPG setting as much as the kind of narrative web-style arc that slowly emerges throughout Kingmaker. I've started playing Wrath of the Righteous which by comparison isn't quite hooking me as hard even though its premise is pitching directly into my strike zone.
 
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Few things get me to invest as deeply into an RPG setting as much as the kind of narrative web-style arc that slowly emerges throughout Kingmaker. I've started playing Wrath of the Righteous which by comparison isn't quite hooking me as hard even though its premise is pitching directly into my strike zone.

Yeah, one thing I definitely do like in Kingmaker is the way that seemingly unrelated problems slowly develop a connections. Apparently this is a product of the game trying to make a coherent narrative out of what used to be more standalone chapters in the source material, and knowing that I can imagine now what parts are most likely the duct tape holding things together, but overall I think they did a good job.

I also do like that the primary antagonist in Kingmaker is not a typical dark lord or evil lich type (even if those are also in the game), and so WotR's apparent emphasis on leading a crusade against demons from hell (or whatever, honestly most Pathfinder lore just rolls off of me) definitely feels less compelling to me. I'll play it anyway, though, there are only so many high quality games in this style.

I honestly came into Kingmaker with a bit of an unfair grudge against because it seems to have thoroughly won the battle of the real time with pause style CRPG space and I do prefer what Pillars of Eternity did, but despite this preference I've come to really like it and it's different enough that I wish both series could have continued in parallel. Owlcat's Kingmaker games embrace the ridiculous maximalism of the IE games with scenarios directly taken from tabletop modules, while PoE was all about refining and cutting down to the essence of things in terms of game systems but with a more critical and innovative approach to fantasy worldbuilding. Oh well!
 

Purple

(She/Her)
Yeah, one thing I definitely do like in Kingmaker is the way that seemingly unrelated problems slowly develop a connections. Apparently this is a product of the game trying to make a coherent narrative out of what used to be more standalone chapters in the source material
That's not entirely accurate. Pathfinder APs always have an overall narrative in place before they've even assigned writers for the individual books, and there's always structural notes on how everything is fitting together/building towards the big epic finale at the end.

That said Kingmaker in particular has been criticized a fair bit for how, as a player, all the First World problems kinda come completely out of left field, because there really aren't particularly any hints to that built in for players to realistically stumble across, just a lot of backstory for the GM with no real organic ways to put it out there that don't involve a fair deal of improvisation.

... and of course other APs have been criticized for setting up who the villain is too clearly too early, so, hey, balancing act. But eventually tying together a bunch of apparently random stuff is there in the source material too, and that AP in particular I would say REALLY does not feel especially episodic in how it's structured (I mean, beyond how the map is broken into regions with notable difficulty spikes and you're kind of encouraged to go region by region).
 
That said Kingmaker in particular has been criticized a fair bit for how, as a player, all the First World problems kinda come completely out of left field, because there really aren't particularly any hints to that built in for players to realistically stumble across, just a lot of backstory for the GM with no real organic ways to put it out there that don't involve a fair deal of improvisation.

This is what I was trying to refer to obliquely. I was looking up "how many chapters" because it's very long. (A completionist playthrough of the first chapter alone in this game was as long for me as many full length RPGs!) And doing that I came across a discussion of "favorite chapters" that noted that Chapter 3 (The Season of Bloom) is invented for the video game adaptation. Although, looking this up just now, it seems like it's now also being added to a revised addition of the table top game, which seems like a great idea, because it in the video game it's where a few bits of foreshadowing early on (which are now also unavoidable parts of the main narrative rather than unrealistic to stumble across) really start to congeal and it becomes increasingly clear that this is actual central narrative, which is then confirmed when you chase after Tristian in the fallout of the next chapter.
 

Lokii

(He/Him)
Staff member
Moderator
Almost halfway through Queen's Wish: The Conqueror and it's such an interesting game I want to talk about it.

You play the third scion of Haven, spoiled heir to the most powerful nation in the world. It is the queen's wish that you get off your duff and contribute to the royal interests. So she dumps you via magic portal on the continent of Sacramentum with orders to clean up an old embarrassment. Haven is the strongest nation not through exhibitions of power but careful negotiation. The favored tactic is to back one side of a local conflict, ensuring its victory it in the short term but entangling it through contracts and treaties into Haven's economy. What was once an independent people becomes a vassal state and then eventually is subsumed into the empire.

Several decades prior to the game Haven secured control of Sacramentum and was beginning to enjoy the fruits of its investment when a mysterious blight fell on the land. Crops and fields withered, livestock died, and the forces of Haven starved. The empire found it impossible to sustain a presence so they pulled out in favor of other interests, but always regretted the loss of the collony. This withdrawal left the three native nations of Sacramentum destabilized and at the mercy of bandits and local tyrants who rushed into the power vacuum.

This is the mess the queen hands you. To earn your place in the royal family you're to re-secure Haven's presence on Sacramentum and force the vassal states to honor their treaties, which are technically still in effect. And you do this through good ol' dungeon crawling and dialog trees!

pSZy7It.png

I love the game's visual style. Look at this, it's perfect.

Marrying this premise to progression is one of Queen Wish's unique strengths. Dotted across Sacramentum are the old forts built during Haven's first occupation. If you can reclaim them they will produce resources used to purchase utilities and shops. This base-building component is at the heart of the game's mechanics. For example, level-ups don't increase stats. Gear is the primary way of making your characters strong. And while there is good loot out in the wilds, it's rare and won't sustain your party through the difficulty curve. But by investing in blacksmiths, weavers, and carpenters you unlock higher tiers of purchasable equipment that will keep your party kitted up. Additionally, these shops also provide passive advantages like bonuses to attack and defense or extra inventory slots. In general, any one shop will grant two benefits, which makes them desirable upgrades. However, in addition to the initial price they also cost an upkeep tax, so in order to afford more shops you have to find sources of passive income to sustain your forts' upkeep and this is where dungeons come in.

Just like shops, dungeons are multi-beneficial. Each one promises three rewards:

  • Loot. Whether it contains gold, resources, gear, or single-use magic scrolls, each chest is valuable. There's no such thing as vender loot or potions for the stockpile. The economy in this game is tight and anything you can get for free is worth picking up.
  • Experience. Monsters don't drop EXP in this game. The only way to get it is from dungeons. You get a little when you discover one's location and a lot when you finish a quest, of which every dungeon is tied to at least one.
  • Passive resources. Once a dungeon is cleared it will start producing income to offset the cost of your forts or reduce the likelihood of theft from your current income.

This makes every dungeon valuable and important. You really feel like you're taking ownership of the land as you turn the untamed wilds into productive resources that directly influence your strength and capability.

The gameplay loop boils down to infiltrating a hostile region, establishing a base, outfitting to get strong enough to follow quests to local dungeons, clearing the dungeons to offset upkeep and afford new shops, outfit for quests in further dungeons, which will finance your excursion into the next region. Additionally, each region specializes in a specific resource but shops cost all three types, so you're encouraged to bounce from region to region rather than clearing one out in a single go.

This replicates the feeling of managing a kingdom. As you pay attention to stabilizing one region you feel the other two start to fall behind as the upkeep costs put a strain on their resources. The pacing is spot on; it always feels like there's something essential you need to do. You're torn back and forth as you crisscross the continent, juggling the complexity of upkeep as your conquest expands. Even though your time is spent down in the muck of tile-by-tile dungeon crawling it feels like you are sitting at top of the power structure with responsibilities appropriate to that position.

KAIPc6I.png

The unforgiving bogs of Ukat produce fine iron, the Vol desert stone quarries, and the mystical forest of Abriel precious quicksilver, the key catalyst in wonderous potions.

Now, all these systems are great fun to interact with but what makes the game cool is how the narrative pushes against them. The gameplay pulls you into the roll of conquering hero, bringing order and stability to the wild barbarians. You literally get stronger by doing a colonialism. The narrative recognizes this and challenges the assumptions that fuel the game systems.

It feels good to get stronger, to clear dungeons and embiggen your enterprise. But doing so means trudging through the land mile by weary mile, encountering the locals and getting invested in their struggles. Each region is dealing with a fatal breakdown in structure that is destroying their nation. Ukat is at the mercy of violent tribalism, Abriel's ruling class has abandoned leadership to get drunk on psychodelic elixirs, and the Vol is torn by civil war. By law these lands belong to you and you bear some responsibility for their wellbeing. They're in such a rough state precisely because Haven's invasion and withdrawal destabilized the continent. Your character didn't create this situation but they're the person with the most means and legal justification to do something about it.

Yet each region's flaw is a product of their culture and to impose order is to deny their autonomy and right to self-govern. You've literally got to do the imperialist thing if you want to save these kingdoms. Queen's Wish sets up this contradiction elegantly: when you first arrive on Sacramentum you learn about the regions in broad terms with their cultures described via stereotypes and their conflicts presented such that intervention appears to be the moral choice. But as you move through the regions you come into contact with the cultures' complexity and nuance. Simple solutions no longer feel adequate or appropriate.

Jeff Vogel, the talent behind the game, said in an interview that his job as writer is to present a choice and then convince the player as hard as he can to take the other side. That struck me as telling. This maxim is effective not just because it makes for robust faction writing but because it reinforces the central conflict. There's no perfect solution. Go get the treaties ratified will require taking a side and compromising in some fashion. There is no heroic way to swoop in as the benevolent civilized nation and save the natives from themselves. To participate, no matter how well intentioned, is to be complicit in colonialism.

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A good example of this is the Vol. When first introduced you're simply told they practice slavery and that the last time Haven was in control the Queen supported the slavers as it was the more profitable option. It seems like the moral conflict is going to be between siding with the rich but corrupt slave owners or the poor and persecuted slave revolutionaries: a simple renegade/paragon dichotomy.

It's a clear moral choice: slavery is abhorrent. But as you move into the Vol and start to encounter the nuance of their culture you begin to see how things aren't so straightforward. Vol society is divided into the average citizenry; a small ruling class of rich slave owners called Mascha; and the slaves themselves, a criminal class known as the Owen. Because the Vol desert is so unforgiving a collectivist society formed where communities pool resources to survive. Pride in contributing to the collective is at the heart of national identity and to fall into deep debt is the worst thing a person can do as this essentially means they've become an unfair drain on the contributions of others. Should this happen the debtor can choose between exile or becoming an Owen. This involves someone else paying the debt as an act of charity, thus negating the accrued burden on the collective resources, and in return the debtor devotes the rest of their life in servitude. Thus slavery is seen not as the ownership of one person by another but as a voluntary act of atonement.

Of course it doesn't work like that in practice. The Mascha are entrenched in power, more and more people fall into inescapable debt every year, and, the system at its most grotesque, if a person's debt is too great their unborn descendants are also marked as Owen. Despite being tied so tightly to the Vol's noble attributes of collectivism and self-sacrifice it is still an abominable system. And so, a sizable number of Owen have outright rebelled and entrenched themselves in an especially rugged part of the desert. Their rebellion has blossomed into an outright war for their freedom.

Still, the game provides counterarguments. One of your aids identifies The Vol as a "hard vassal." Hard, not because they're strong or difficult to control, but because there's an unsavory element in their culture that makes them difficult to absorb into the empire. Societies that engage in ritual human sacrifice or that sort of thing. When you ask how Haven traditionally handles these situations, she explains that by stabilizing the nation and increasing wealth through trade a corruption emerges that eats away at the nation's core values until such a point the taboo can be peacefully abolished. Essentially, you "civilize" them. The Vol is at a point where if Haven doesn't step in the war will tear the country to pieces. Siding with the Mascha is vile, but doing so will end the war as bloodlessly as possible and lay the foundation for a non-violent civil rights movement some undefined time in the future.

To take the alternate path is to side with literal criminals and engage in outright war. It's about the most invasive thing you can do: literal conquest of a weaker nation. But to not side with the Owen is to explicitly endorse slavery. Yet, to do so is doom the citizenry to violence and the complete upheaval of their way of life.

You can see how the game ping-pongs back and forth with justifications and counterarguments. Vogel is always trying to convince you of the other side. There's no clear easy path and no matter what you chose you're complicit in evil. And while I've gone on for paragraphs describing all this, the game handles it with a light touch. Unembellished, the game simply presents the perspectives of various NPCs, allowing you to draw conclusions and decide how you will roleplay your response.

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A multipart quest with far reaching consequences tied to one faction nested inside another faction.

Another neat feature is that if you want to take the route of full non-interventionalist you can. Once you've amassed a token amount of quicksilver you can activate the magical portal home. Of course doing so is to doom Sacramentum to chaos and petty tyranny but there's any number of justifications for this choice too: honoring the autonomy of these nations to solve their own problems, a noble refusal to be a pawn in your mother's machinations. or even a selfish desire to return to a life of hedonism. Heck, you can even state an intention to start a revolution of your own and overtake the corrupt Haven empire. Additionally, upon beating the game you're given a code to carry over your choices and reputation to the sequel. You're completely free to blow a raspberry at the game and roll into the next adventure as a slacker kid or seething revolutionary if so inclined.

I like that the game presents all these choices and then honors your decisions. I especially like how the gameplay systems empower you while the narrative interrogates that power. I admire how game keeps you in a place of tension, offering no clear distinctions between good and bad, and critiquing the typical problem-solving player character found in CRPGs without resorting to making it into a mustache-twirling Sith Lord.

At least, I hope so. As I said, I'm only about 50% of the way through the game. I've essentially cleared out the first act of each region. I expect Vogel will continue to add richness and nuance to the scenarios in act 2, but who knows, it could be that outright-good solutions will be introduced that will give you a chance to come through the adventure mortally pristine. The game isn't trying to be like Tyranny, a serious and dour examination of the nature of evil. It wouldn't be entirely inappropriate for an heroic "out" to present itself at the 12th hour; but based on the set-up I don't think it's likely.

Whew! That was a lot of words just to describe the central conceit. I didn't even get to the game's unique approach to dungeons, character progression, and other ways it innovates CRPG design. But I'm boring everyone to tears so I'll wrap quickly by saying: game good, Spiderweb good.
 

Torzelbaum

????? LV 13 HP 292/ 292
(he, him, his)
I have about 90 hours in this game (from multiple playthroughs) but I last played it a couple of years ago so I can't exactly remember how it progressed/ended (and also don't want to spoil anything for anyone).

But if you're looking for a really powerful build that can make the game a lot easier then I can share that.

Abriel's ruling class has abandoned leadership to get drunk on psychodelic elixirs
Spiderweb Software figured out how to make fantasy elves even worse / more annoying - turn them into drug addicts.

Also, the sequel to this game was released earlier this year:
 

Mogri

Round and round I go
(he)
Staff member
Moderator
That sounds awesome. I've been an on-and-off fan of Spiderweb's output for decades now, so I'll probably give this a play before too long.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
I bought this on sale a while back and apparently need to give it a shot. I never did beat Avernum: Escape from the Pit, though I enjoyed what I played of it.
 

Mogri

Round and round I go
(he)
Staff member
Moderator
My favorite of their games has been Geneforge, which is getting a remaster soonish. It's a five-game series; I think I remember especially liking 2-4.
 

q 3

here to eat fish and erase the universe
(they/them)
Every so often I think about getting back into Spiderweb games but my very specific personal obstacle is that I always played them on a keyboard with a number pad, and it has been years since I owned a keyboard with a number pad. Where is the official Spiderweb Software branded number pad
 

John

(he/him)
Thanks for the awesome writeup, Loki!

My favorite of their games has been Geneforge, which is getting a remaster soonish. It's a five-game series; I think I remember especially liking 2-4.
Geneforge 1's been remastered and was released in 2021. Geneforge 2's in progress, slated early 2024 per the latest update.
 

ThricebornPhoenix

target for faraway laughter
(he/him)
Every so often I think about getting back into Spiderweb games but my very specific personal obstacle is that I always played them on a keyboard with a number pad, and it has been years since I owned a keyboard with a number pad. Where is the official Spiderweb Software branded number pad
Half of their games don't even have numpad support, which is seriously my biggest overall SS gripe. If your software doesn't use the number pad, was it even worth writing?!
 

demi

(She/Her)
On an impulse I got a VGA CRT to hook up to the old comp, so I immediately installed old Infinity Engine faves like Baldur's Gate I & II, IWD, etc. These games were, like, a large part of my adolescence. But, I never played them as anything other than pause-on-demand. Even besides that, I would go so far as to say that I was never actually very good at these. Every session was replete with quick saves and reloads 'round every corner and I never really understood like spell counterplay - very by the numbers loadouts with as much AC and as many Fireballs as possible.

That all said: any tips for somebody returning to these years later on how to enjoy them in real-time without leaning on pause? I'm guessing leaving at default 30fps speed is desirable - I used to crank this up to 45-60 when I was younger lol - and making use of the custom hotkeys in the config files would be well-advised? I'd love to get tips on strategy too, from composition to spell loadout, but I don't want to get too far ahead of myself here. I'll pick one up and see how things are going and ask questions from there I suppose!

Anyway, would love to have an experience with them beyond the powergaming my teenage self seemed to endlessly enjoy haha. I'll probably only mode them a smidge (fixpacks and the like) if at all.

Thank you!
 
I think that paradoxically the way to lean on pause less is to first not worry about it and pause all the time. If the goal is to get better at these games in the sense of not having to quicksave and quickload constantly, then what you want to do is to embrace the pause, at least in the beginning. You need to get a sense of the rhythms of when you need to pause, and the way to do that is by pausing whenever you think you need to. Unnecessary pauses should eventually fade away as you get used to the game, but at the same time higher level play in these games typically still involves pausing a lot.

For me at least, I was frustrated by these games when I was trying to pause less, and I started to love them when I realized they're all about pausing and have a unique rhythm to them that's different than either an RTS or a turn based game.

What are you thinking of starting with? I think I'd recommend BG1 if you're re-learning the ropes, because the IWD games are going to really throw you into the deep end combat wise from the very start, while in BG1 after you make it past the wolves and the encounter in front of Friendly Arm Inn it's pretty gentle for a while.
 

demi

(She/Her)
Mmm, I think I'm most itching for BG1 > BG2- maybe as a Bard since they are versatile so I can play around with party composition, and having extra coverage on Thief skills is always welcome. I've never tried Wizard MC though, could be fun! I think it's been long enough for me to have forgotten most of my legacy knowledge on fastest exp, gold, enchanted equips, etc which I leaned on so often it made my replays pretty same-y.

IWD1 was the most recent one I played (like a decade ago) - well, besides the first Pillars of Eternity - and I love it more each time I play it; The Severed Hand is unforgettable! I never did Trials of the Luremaster stuff though, but got the impression that was much more dungeon-crawley than even the rest of the game. The two I've never finished are Icewind Dale II and Planescape Torment. So after I go through Baldur's Gate, I will probably one of those?

Thanks for the encouragement re: Pause, in the back of my mind I always felt like I was, like, cheesing the games too much with precise sequencing and rng-fishing on reloads. But that feeling is def not entirely on the shoulders of Pause. The experience that I hope to have is to learn better how to adapt to challenges, with broader ranges of spells memo'd and the wit to select the right ones for the occasion. Reloading after a big fight breaks out just to re-memo and pre-buff is something I'd love to steer away from. I think the sheer amount of time I've taken away from Infinity Engine stuff may have left space for me to experiment & learn again.

Def love to hear your thoughts on fun MC classes or IWD2, I never spoiled myself on that game and have been quite curious if it could rival the first game.
 
I don't have a ton of first hand knowledge of MC classes because these games are so long! BG was my first IE game, and for my only full (through Throne of Bhaal) playthrough I picked the completely nonsensical class of Ranger-Cleric, which seemed like a fun and characterful idea when I knew nothing about the systems but in retrospect is strictly a worse version of Fighter-Cleric. (Some versions of the game accidentally give this class full Druid and Cleric spells though, but I was playing the EEs where this is fixed.) I don't regret it because there's something to not just picking the most powerful option, and also the Ranger specific MC homestead class quest in BG2 was fun. Not much to say about this other than it being incredibly powerful, even if there's no reason to select it over Fighter-Cleric. Having a strong melee fighter who can cast Cleric spells is very useful, and being slightly lower level than a pure version of either class doesn't do much to balance that out.

The only other class I've played is Bard, just for a BG1, and I can confirm it's a lot of fun. The only thief skill you get points for is Pick Pockets, but it's kind of nice to have a character who can do that since typically in BG1 you need to prioritize dealing with traps and unlocking things for your main thief. Also, wands with spell charges are very strong in BG1 and if your MC is a Bard you'll have another person who can use those instead of letting them go to waste. BG1 is also where Fear is a big problem for your party, so having the bard song as an infinite use ability that grants immunity to Fear means you're much less likely to end up in battles where you lose control over your entire party as they run around in terror as they get murdered. They're not going to replace a Wizard or Sorcerer, but arcane magic is so good in BG that a few extra lower level spell slots will come in handy, and a faster levelling curve means some bread and butter spells will actually be marginally stronger when cast by a Bard in BG1. In a 6 member party, a Bard feels like it covers a lot of various and sundry activities that frees up other more focused party members to specialize in whatever they do best. I want to do BG2 with this as well, but I haven't found the time...

More broadly, have you seen the main BG fan wiki? (The link is to their list of classes and kits.) It's pretty thorough, but be aware that some of it is probably only relevant to the EE editions, especially the information about class kits which I believe weren't in OG BG1. I think the wiki is pretty good about noting changes between the editions, but I've only experienced that as an EE player, so I can't speak to the experience of looking for information about the OG versions.

You're probably aware that IWD2 is very divisive. Personally, a lot of the major criticisms are things that I like about the game.

For example, I often see complaints about re-used assests and gimmicky dungeons, but I think a lot of the most criticized areas are actually areas with a thoughtful approach to how to expand the limits of the kind of storytelling that's possible within these systems. More specifically but trying not to spoil too much, these areas are a lost woods type maze and a time loop mystery narrative sequence. The former honestly felt fairly rote by Japanese RPG and adventure game standards and I don't understand what people were upset about at all (maybe because I had a Druid I had an easier time with it?), and the latter was I thought extremely innovative and clever to the extent that I just don't understand the sensibilities of anyone who felt like that was lazily re-used assets.

The class system is an attempt to use third edition rules, so character creation and levelling is a little closer to the Pathfinder games than BG1/2 or IWD1, and there is a wider variety of races. I know some say this feels rushed and half-baked, but coming to it after BG1/2 and IWD1 I felt like it was a breath of fresh air, and some of the class implementations that became standard are present for the first time in IWD2. For example, an IWD2 Bard is now a Charisma caster, rather than a very specific version of a Wizard/Rogue. What I really like though is that it feels like IWD2 has the most reactivity, where your characters background seems to affect the possible solutions to a quest.

IWD2 is also maybe the most linear of these games. The story drives you from town to dungeon (or dungeon-like area) to town without a lot of opportunity for side-exploration or backtracking, along the lines of say Final Fantasy IV before you get a permanent airship. This is obviously a different vibe than the other IE games, but if you accept it for what it is, it also allows for tighter balance, for better or for worse.

Combat is definitely balanced for someone who knows what they're doing, but I think its reputation as being particularly punishing is overstated. In my opinion the encounters in these games that feel the least fair are all in the Throne of Bhaal expansion of BG2. Honestly, I even think IWD1 is less fair than IWD2.

Historically, this was Josh Sawyer's first game as a lead designer, and even though the game was rushed and made under less than ideal conditions, as a huge fan of his work in Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2, I think you can see the glimmers of his sensibilities in IWD2, which could also be a point of interest. (It was for me, at least.)
 
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demi

(She/Her)
Dang, thanks! That's a lot to consider, I think Ranger was my first class ever in BG1 when I was like 13 haha, so I may have to consider revisiting it. Some kind of Fighter/Cleric multiclass could be really, really fun too. Clerics already dress the part with all that plate mail lol. We'll see though, I think you sold me pretty good on Bard, even though I play Rogue-types way too much in like literally everything they're in. Fun is fun!

Yea I remember the 3E implementations a bit in IWD2, ultimately I can't imagine they get in the way that much of having a grand time with Infinity Engine, like, my attacks may or may not hit, spells may get resisted, it's still a bunch of dice rolls to me! And the spoiler-tagged things you described sound like they shouldn't be missed! I didn't know about this game's legacy re: Josh Sawyer, but as I was quite smitten with PoE1 upon its release! I should really check out Deadfire soon too...

I haven't checked the Wiki - I used to read the big 200+ page spiralbound BG2 game manual like it was scripture though! Some mechanics and details are simply engraved in my bones at this point. Otherwise I used to take in a bunch of information reading about all the mod efforts from like GibberlingsThree, PocketPlaneGroup, Sorcerer's Place, etc. Just like the plethora of NWN1 mods updated for BeamDog's Enhanced Edition, a lot of the mod efforts for the IE games have since been transposed to their respective Enhanced Edition releases, which is really wonderful. Anyway...

Also agreed, Throne of Bhaal is all over the place with story and combat alike, but I'll give it this much: I certainly wasn't expecting what I got lol. It's been so long, but I feel like the antagonist they came up with was pretty unexpected. I think I remember liking Watcher's Keep a lot too, though I don't think it trumps Durlag's Tower from Tales of the Sword Coast.
 
I don't want to oversell either of the spoilered things, especially the maze, which is old hat if you've ever played a Zelda game, among many other examples. I don't think they're going to blow anyone's mind in 2023, even if I think the other one is a fun and well executed bit of storytelling and a pretty unique sequence among IE games. It's more just like, I don't understand why they come up so often in complaints.

Also honestly I like Throne of Bhaal, to be clear! I just think IWD2 gets unfairly singled out as being the unfairly difficult one, when I don't think it has anything approaching how punishing the gauntlet of the ToB final boss can be, for example.

I think some of IWD2's bad reputation is attributable to at the time the audience thinking, "Do we really need another one of these?" And that reaction was maybe understandable in 2002. These are huge games, and they all came out between 1998 and 2002. But over 20 years later there are still not all that many games in this style. So, while it may have felt like a glut at the time, in retrospect it's a rarity from a very brief moment when this genre was flourishing.
 
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