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The Popol Vuh - April 2022 Book Club Reading

Falselogic

Lapsed Threadcromancer
(they/them)
According to Wikipedia:
Popol Vuh (also Popol Wuj or Popul Vuh or Pop Vuj)is a text recounting the mythology and history of the Kʼicheʼ people, one of the Maya peoples, who inhabit Guatemala and the Mexican states of Chiapas, Campeche, Yucatan and Quintana Roo, as well as areas of Belize and Honduras.

The Popol Vuh is a foundational sacred narrative of the Kʼicheʼ people from long before the Spanish conquest of Mexico. It includes the Mayan creation myth, the exploits of the Hero Twins Hunahpú and Xbalanqué, and a chronicle of the Kʼicheʼ people.

The name "Popol Vuh" translates as "Book of the Community", "Book of Counsel", or more literally as "Book of the People". It was originally preserved through oral tradition until approximately 1550, when it was recorded in writing.The documentation of the Popol Vuh is credited to the 18th-century Spanish Dominican friar Francisco Ximénez, who prepared a manuscript with a transcription in Kʼicheʼ and parallel columns with translations into Spanish.

Like the Chilam Balam and similar texts, the Popol Vuh is of particular importance given the scarcity of early accounts dealing with Mesoamerican mythologies. After the Spanish conquest, missionaries and colonists destroyed many documents.
And who are the K'iche' people you ask? Well, you might have learned about them in school as the Quiché
an indigenous peoples of the Americas and are one of the Maya peoples. The Kʼicheʼ language is a Mesoamerican language in the Mayan language family. The highland Kʼicheʼ states in the pre-Columbian era are associated with the ancient Maya civilization, and reached the peak of their power and influence during the Mayan Postclassic period (c. 950–1539 AD).

@Violentvixen has recommended some resources, including a free option here. Project Gutenberg also has a free option here.
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
Reposting from the other thread:

So I selected the Popul Vuh for April, and wanted to say that I don't want to specify a specific translation/edition. This is more about my intent to seek out stories and perspectives that are important but haven't been as recognized by the public. In the case of the Popul Vuh it's also worth noting that this epic was erased/burned/suppressed due to colonization.

I found a free PDF online, my library has this "retelling" that looks cool, and this edition is the one I picked up as it seems to be the newest translation. But I want to encourage people to participate no matter what they find.

Finally, I haven't read this, just heard about it so if someone does have an edition they really recommend I'd love to hear it since people might be finding copies now.

I'm very excited for this, it's been on my list for a very long time, especially after seeing it referenced a lot when we visited the Smithsonian many years ago.
 

John

(he/him)
I've only started reading the translator's note, but I really like this passage about why the Mayans treat the written word with respect:

"to read the thoughts of ancient ancestors is to make their spirits present in the room and give them a living voice"

Now when I'm reading in my head I can imagine the author actually narrating the text to me, or sitting to the side just out of view when I'm reading aloud to my kids.
 

WildcatJF

Let's Pock (Art @szk_tencho)
(he / his / him)
Holy shit no way.

The Popoh Vuh is something very special to me. I studied it extensively earning my Anthropology B.A. and even wrote a short story retelling a section of the story about Lady Blood. I since published the tale as a book along with another Ancient Maya piece, but I'll just leave a link if anyone's interested.

A couple things I'd like to point out since this is a bit of my jam:
A) the people are the Ancient Maya. The language is Mayan. This is often conflated.
B) Dennis Tedlock is not the latest translator (his last translation was from 1996), although he is more recent. I personally had Allen Christenson's translation (done in 2004. I've met him when I was studying, and he's very nice) which I found both respectful and very readable. That is the free link first referenced in VV's post and recommend him.

More on my personal history with the Maya and this text can be found (oddly enough) on my fancy book blog covering the Limited Editions Club version of the Popoh Vuh here.

I'll definitely try to be involved with this one!
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
The Popoh Vuh is something very special to me. I studied it extensively earning my Anthropology B.A. and even wrote a short story retelling a section of the story about Lady Blood. I since published the tale as a book along with another Ancient Maya piece, but I'll just leave a link if anyone's interested.
I remember you linking this, and I have this on my wishlist. I've always meant to read it after I read the Popol Vuh so I will soon!

More on my personal history with the Maya and this text can be found (oddly enough) on my fancy book blog covering the Limited Editions Club version of the Popoh Vuh here.
This is really cool, especially the video on the glyphs, seeing them drawn and explained like that really clarified things for me.

I am sure I'll have more questions or comments after I get further in, but thank you already!
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
My copy doesn't come with a list of names so I've found this site helpful.

I'm enjoying this so far but the names are definitely a big stumbling block. But I'm sure that's due to lack of information, the style and tone of the names is so all over the place that I find it difficult to follow.

For example the names "Zipacna", "Sovereign Plumed Serpent" and "Noble Sweatbath" are three different characters but also so completely different in style I got really confused if they were from different source documents or something? My assumption is that a name like "Zipacna" was an example of a complete translation, the character's name is clear to the translator so a Quiché name and pronounciation is used. This makes "Sovereign Plumed Serpent" sort of a medium-level translation, where they couldn't determine the exact name so went with a more poetic title. Then I assumed "Noble Sweatbath" is a case of not having much detail so doing a very literal translation? All my assumptions above are absolutely biased by my knowledge of Japanese, since I know the individual kanji can be read literally one way but when taken together as a name come out completely differently.

But then I re-read the preface and saw the lines below, which makes me think that I have it backwards? That maybe the goal is to not use a name but instead to provide a very literal translation?

Newly available sources on Mayan languages have made it possible to give meaning to proper names that were left untranslated before. For example, Xbaquiyalo, the wife of Seven Macaw, now becomes Egret Woman.

@WildcatJF if you have any insight into this I'd love to hear it.
 

WildcatJF

Let's Pock (Art @szk_tencho)
(he / his / him)
@WildcatJF if you have any insight into this I'd love to hear it.
I'll do some digging this evening to see if I can give you more specific insights, but what I can say off the top of my head is that modern translators have to go off of Spanish translations done by Catholic priests of the 1800s AND what fragmentary hieroglyphic texts remain following the destruction of so much of the written language of the Maya because of the aforementioned Catholic priests. Only four "books" survived (last I heard), so the various names of characters being in different states of translation may be due to this cultural gap/elimination. A lot of work has been done at the physical locations of Maya ruins, and the fact we can translate hieroglyphs at all is a wondrous development (I'll try to look up a video on this tonight as well to share). What I remember is that some tales feature the same character with different names because of this, so having a resource for naming conventions is definitely helpful.
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
I'll do some digging this evening to see if I can give you more specific insights, but what I can say off the top of my head is that modern translators have to go off of Spanish translations done by Catholic priests of the 1800s AND what fragmentary hieroglyphic texts remain following the destruction of so much of the written language of the Maya because of the aforementioned Catholic priests. Only four "books" survived (last I heard), so the various names of characters being in different states of translation may be due to this cultural gap/elimination. A lot of work has been done at the physical locations of Maya ruins, and the fact we can translate hieroglyphs at all is a wondrous development (I'll try to look up a video on this tonight as well to share). What I remember is that some tales feature the same character with different names because of this, so having a resource for naming conventions is definitely helpful.
Thank you! Yeah, that was my suspicion but it's really intriguing to me what came from the Spanish copy and what didn't. I also took a look at the Christenson translation and noticed a couple name differences right off the bat. I went with Tedlock because I prefer physical books and could only order that one at the local bookshop, but I think I'll put the Christenson PDF on my Kindle since not only are the differences themselves interesting but the two translators also seem to have footnoted different things which helps me understand more.

Also I was having trouble visualizing the three hearthstones that were mentioned as a reference to the creation myths, these two sites had some helpful background and images.
 

WildcatJF

Let's Pock (Art @szk_tencho)
(he / his / him)

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
Ok, doubling back. Here's a documentary Nova did a few years ago on the "cracking" of the Mayan language (which I did watch in class):


I'll try to watch this this weekend, just haven't had an hour block yet but I'm very intrigued.

This article talks about the history of translating the Popoh Vuh, which does dig into why there's differing interpretations of some of the names:


This combined with looking at both the Tedlock and Christenson translations in parallel has been really helpful too, thanks!

Anyway, I was thrilled to read the frogmouth bird/whipporwill origin story in here (p124 of the Tedlock transation, p156 of Christenson). I adore Potoo birds so learning anything more about them (even indirectly) is awesome.

potoo-birds-are-the-subject-of-some-spooky-folklore-photo-u1
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
Ok, doubling back. Here's a documentary Nova did a few years ago on the "cracking" of the Mayan language (which I did watch in class):


This article talks about the history of translating the Popoh Vuh, which does dig into why there's differing interpretations of some of the names:

This was great, I love how it really went over all aspects of it. And the French guy just inserting elephants into the hieroglyphs because he didn't understand, ugh...

I'm pretty done with the Tedlock translation. Some passages are just borderline nonsense and after switching over to Christenson a couple times to try to understand what I'm reading I think I'm just going to stick with Christenson.
 

WildcatJF

Let's Pock (Art @szk_tencho)
(he / his / him)
Christenson really did a marvelous job with his translation. Having him come and guest lecture a class and getting to talk to him a little was one of the reasons I really got attached to this text.
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
Finished! Goodreads reminded me that this has been on my "to read" list since 2015 so very glad to finally read it. It's not an easy read but oh man I learned so much and hope others did too.

Finally, I really liked the succinct and more readable retelling my library had that I mentioned above. In retrospect I kind of wish I'd read this first so I had more of an idea of what's going on before embarking on the more difficult/literal/accurate translations.
 

WildcatJF

Let's Pock (Art @szk_tencho)
(he / his / him)
Glad you enjoyed it! It's a very fascinating book and a dynamic culture to learn about.
 
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