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  #2191  
Old 03-21-2017, 08:59 AM
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See, I always do Luck runs. I don't think I've done a legit run since I bought the game in H.S. As such, I consider Luck runs to be entirely normal. Once you get the Jewel Knuckles and Mirror Cuirass, it's all gravy. I'm guessing a "normal" run would be easy mode.
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  #2192  
Old 03-21-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by four-so View Post
I'm guessing a "normal" run would be easy mode.
yep

I mean most of the bosses, you have to sit around and let them attack you to see how their patterns are supposed to work. The inverted castle is basically a steamroll unless you've just ignored most of the gear you've picked up by then.

The first time I played SotN, I grinded Schmoo for the Crissaegrim thinking it would temper the late game difficulty. When I defeated the Creature in less than 1 second I experienced a sort of guilt that was heretofore unknown to me in games.
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  #2193  
Old 03-21-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by four-so View Post
I'm guessing a "normal" run would be easy mode.
Totally. You don't even really need to use a shield in a normal run, but now I'm constantly lifting my shield in front of me. You really don't want to get hit with such low stats; I think my Lucky-Alucard is only at 55 HP right now. Oh, and I JUST collected enough Heart Max Ups to get my Hearts up to 20. I couldn't even use the damn Stopwatch until now, which really would've helped with the Fleamen in Marble Gallery.
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  #2194  
Old 03-21-2017, 09:16 AM
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I played Luck mode once, and while I remember it being hard at first, by the end of the game it's actually considerably easier than a normal playthrough. At some point you've amassed so much amazing gear that it more than compensates the lower stats.
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  #2195  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:54 AM
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You don't even really need to use a shield in a normal run,
How else are you going to shield dash?
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  #2196  
Old 03-21-2017, 11:42 AM
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How else are you going to shield dash?


Holy shit!
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  #2197  
Old 03-21-2017, 11:46 AM
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I've read about that warg knockback trick but I don't think I've ever seen it in practice. whyyyy does it exist
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  #2198  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:12 PM
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If you get hit for more than half of your max HP, you go flying back like that until something stops you. It's just one of the hundreds of caring details in this game. Speed runners use it intentionally as a way of getting around, of course (they call it a "big toss"), and for a long time, it was the only known way of skipping the scene where Death jacks your equipment at the beginning.

Speaking of the Death skip, the method discovered a few years ago is even more impressive and doesn't require you to be playing in Luck Mode. I'd strongly recommend anyone to try it themselves using Turbodog's tutorials. You'll feel like you got away with murder when you pull it off.
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  #2199  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishi View Post
If you get hit for more than half of your max HP, you go flying back like that until something stops you. It's one of the hundreds of caring details in this game. Speed runners use it intentionally as a way of getting around, of course (they call it a "big toss"), and for a long time, it was the only known way of skipping the scene where Death jacks your equipment at the beginning.

Speaking of the Death skip, the method discovered a few years ago is even more impressive and doesn't require you to be playing in Luck Mode. I'd strongly recommend anyone to try it themselves using Turbodog's tutorials. You'll feel like you got away with murder when you pull it off.
are the big toss and this Turbodog method only viable in the original PSX release or does it work on all the various ports as well?
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  #2200  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:15 PM
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The big toss isn't a glitch or anything, so it works in all versions. The screen boundary trick used in the other method is unintentional but wasn't even known about until recently, so it was never removed from any rerelease.
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  #2201  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishi View Post
The screen boundary trick used in the other method is unintentional but wasn't even known about until recently, so it was never removed from any rerelease.
It's amazing that we're still discovering things about hugely popular games that are 20 years old or older.
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  #2202  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:21 PM
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Really, though, I can't think of any glitches that were removed in rereleases. There's probably some obscure thing that only works in the Japanese 1.0 release, but probably nothing useful. The Xbox 360 version even added glitches.
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  #2203  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:23 PM
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Trying to keep my luck run pure as I'm streaming it and it gives me a lot of opportunity to chat about the game and stuff as I go through it. But I do love seeing all these little sequence breaks.
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  #2204  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:02 PM
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The last several times I played thru Symphony I cheesed the game one way or another--intentionally or not.

Wolf Jump Skip
Death Skip
Richter Skip
Item Duplication for Throwing Items

etc

I love the stupid game, and I've never attempted a Luck Run. But I did play through each and every single one of the Bonus modes in Circle of the Moon, oddly enough.
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  #2205  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:50 PM
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I love how many ways the community has found to skip the Richter fight.

At least as far back as 2010, there was the wolf relic method, where you charge at the castle keep and jump in just such a way that the wolf form's awkward hitbox bypasses an invisible trigger at the entrance. This trigger locks the camera to force you into a screen transition leading to the instance of the throne room where you fight Richter, so without it, the fight is like a room you never have to go to.

2011 brought the infamous wolf clip, where you transform on a slope above the castle keep and exploit the differences in the wolf form's hitbox to embed Alucard in the floor. Then you can move to the left, beyond Richter, and clip back into the keep through the ceiling. This requires blindly aligning with the correct sub-pixels, which is to say luck and prayer.

2013 gave us the bat method where you transform on the exact frame you fall into the castle keep. This unlocks the camera, essentially negating that trigger at the entrance after you're past it.

But my favorite is the 2014 wolf method, which is still the latest as far as I know. It's actually a revised version of that really old wolf strat: Instead of trying to drive a hole-in-one from a hundred yards, it turns out you can walk right up to where the trigger is and simply flop over it. It's a very precise maneuver but looks like the silliest, most effortless way to skip one of the game's major roadblocks.
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  #2206  
Old 03-21-2017, 09:21 PM
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But the Richter fight is fun and gets you Blood Relations, one of the best tracks in a game of great tracks.

...and then your reward is Finale Toccata for the next six hours.

Anyway, SotN is good, an example of what you can do when you just let a team do whatever they want for three years, but it's unsurprising that Konami never let anyone get away with that again and blaming the rest of the series for not being as 'good' is ultimately self-defeating.

I like the game, but the fans make me wish I didn't.
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  #2207  
Old 03-22-2017, 07:00 AM
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It's especially weird, considering that SOTN is one of the weaker Metroidvanias, with very poor difficulty balancing and a map that's something of an ordeal to traverse.
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  #2208  
Old 03-22-2017, 08:26 AM
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Mmm, but it's got a (hah) soul to it that most other Metroidvanias lack outside of Super Metroid and Prime 1. SOTN is a glaring mishmash of parts, but the sum is greater than the whole.
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  #2209  
Old 03-22-2017, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Mightyblue View Post
Mmm, but it's got a (hah) soul to it that most other Metroidvanias lack outside of Super Metroid and Prime 1. SOTN is a glaring mishmash of parts, but the sum is greater than the whole.
Maximalist design is the Dark Souls of Symphony of the Night
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  #2210  
Old 03-22-2017, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
It's especially weird, considering that SOTN is one of the weaker Metroidvanias, with very poor difficulty balancing and a map that's something of an ordeal to traverse.
Its also one of the earliest. This game plus Super Metroid are what give us the name of the genre.
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  #2211  
Old 03-22-2017, 09:58 AM
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Criticism is fine, but for super influential games like this, OoT, or Mario 64 their big achievements have become so normal as to be invisible, and so nit-picking them comes across as missing the forest for the trees.
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  #2212  
Old 03-23-2017, 12:11 AM
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Every triumph needs the guy whose job it is to whisper "remember thou art mortal" to the general.
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  #2213  
Old 03-24-2017, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki View Post
Criticism is fine, but for super influential games like this, OoT, or Mario 64 their big achievements have become so normal as to be invisible, and so nit-picking them comes across as missing the forest for the trees.
Yes, but all those games are super awful, and we need at least one sane person to tell everyone this - ceaselessly, unsolicited. Never stopping until the grave.

(Raises fist) Dickhead on a forum. Til the end. Dickhead. On a forum.
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  #2214  
Old 03-24-2017, 01:07 PM
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SotN might not hold up in some ways, but it's a game that's got tons and tons of cool stuff. Color-changing capes, a sword that summons an undead army, a rod that turns every shield in the game into its own summon spell, a bat familiar that complements your bat transformation by summoning additional bats and shooting fireballs, a katana that grows stronger as you get drenched in blood, a sword that spits out coins and increases your jewel gains, armor that shatters spikes, a circlet for absorbing cat damage that's only useful in one place.

Harmony of Dissonance's big mistake was just copying SotN's attention to graphic design and its two castles gimmick and nothing else.
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  #2215  
Old 03-24-2017, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
Yes, but all those games are super awful, and we need at least one sane person to tell everyone this - ceaselessly, unsolicited. Never stopping until the grave.

(Raises fist) Dickhead on a forum. Til the end. Dickhead. On a forum.
Madhair, you da real MVP.
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  #2216  
Old 03-24-2017, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
Yes, but all those games are super awful, and we need at least one sane person to tell everyone this - ceaselessly, unsolicited. Never stopping until the grave.

(Raises fist) Dickhead on a forum. Til the end. Dickhead. On a forum.
I don't get it. Are you just trolling, or…?
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  #2217  
Old 03-24-2017, 04:53 PM
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I'm more being self-deprecating as a prelude to being quiet.

I wonder if it'd fair to say that "you had to be there" for SOTN to have impact. I played it after the GBA and DS games and found it underwhelming for the praise I'd seen for it over the years. If I'd played it first I'd probably have been blown away, but as it stands I just found it kind of meandering and poorly balanced.

Anyway yes - quiet, me.
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  #2218  
Old 03-24-2017, 04:57 PM
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As a counterpoint I played SotN first on XBLA after years of trying to snag a PS1 copy (and having played several of the GBA/DS vanias) and adored it. It is a less consistently designed game than its successors but that's part of its charm, a beautiful excess that pervades every part of its design. It's all in what you want out of the game.
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  #2219  
Old 03-24-2017, 05:00 PM
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Yeah. I did wonder. I think I owe it another playthrough. I played it first on that Dracula X collection for PSP, which I understand isn't ideal. I love games that honk of excess and madness so I've no idea why it didn't work for me back then. I've got it on PS3 now just sitting there. Moving it up the backlog...
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  #2220  
Old 03-24-2017, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
I wonder if it'd fair to say that "you had to be there" for SOTN to have impact.
Not in the slightest. I first played it in 2005.
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