The Return of Talking Time

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  #361  
Old 09-05-2017, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Klatrymadon View Post
It's definitely antagonistic towards certain kinds of expectations. I think the decisions to have Lucy kill the doppelganger, and for a barely-introduced Freddie to deal with BOB in a goofy boss fight, were made in part to scupper and mock the notion of ending on a tidy showdown against a supervillain. It goes through the grim motions of such an ending but discards it immediately and sets about giving us a harrowing epilogue to FWWM.
It mocks it but still gives it to you. As goofy as Bad Coop's death was, it was a great scene, and fun TV. Like Johnny said, the show managed to have its cake and eat it too.
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  #362  
Old 09-05-2017, 07:46 AM
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Yeah, definitely! It gets something out of its/our system before continuing on with its bleak, horrifying agenda. I loved the one-two punches of the disorienting reshuffling of reality (pointing toward the supernatural elements in Twin Peaks being far more unsettling than just BOB and the other Lodge-dwellers sourcing garmonbozia), and the realisation of Coop's abject failure to really help Laura Palmer or undo the trauma that hangs like a miasma over the Palmer house.

I agree, though - part 17 was definitely fun TV. Even in its weaker moments The Return has been 'prestige' TV at its absolute best.

"Andy! I understand cellular phones now!" was a great line, btw. There have been so many genuinely hilarious moments throughout the third series...

Last edited by Klatrymadon; 09-06-2017 at 10:45 AM.
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  #363  
Old 09-05-2017, 07:59 AM
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I also think that this was also expressed in the final episode where the Jones family gets to have a happy ending (though the nature of this new Doug-e seems uncertain. I do get the impression that he's less of a fuck-up than the previous one). We leave most of our characters in a good,
hopeful place. But not Coop, Diane and alternate timeline (?) Laura,
whose quest has lead them down a scary path with an uncertain future.


As for Lynch, I think he isn't hostile but he is so idiosyncratic that he's going to do stuff the audience isn't into... and I think he knows it. There are a few scenes in the show that reflect that, where he seems to have sympathy for that audience (though, in his way, doesn't seem to think entirely positively of them, often presenting them in the form of weird shrill people like the lady stuck behind the car where the gun accidentally went off). At least that was a lot less ham-handed than the RR franchising subplot (though that did lead to the sweetest and most touching moment in the show's history).

In retrospect, I'm glad they didn't have Nadine try to manipulate Big Ed again. It actually would have made sense, since Nadine did it following the fad philosophy of Dr. Jacoby. If things suddenly went bad for her, she could be in a very bad place. But then again, her business seems to be going well, so maybe she'd just learn to get over it.

Speaking of, what do you guys think of Dr. Jacoby? While I think his subplot was making fun of hypocritical hucksterism (and Infowars maybe?), I wonder if this was another subplot were Lynch is examining the show itself, perhaps the idea that the show means a lot to him and he can convey his philosophies and ideas through it but in the end, its just another product to sell. But it does speak to someone on a personal level.
Is Nadine another stand in for the Twin Peaks viewer. Someone who is all in but also isn't particularly critical of what she is seeing? Which could actually feed into the idea that perhaps Lynch IS trolling his audience from time to time.
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  #364  
Old 09-05-2017, 12:05 PM
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That's part of what makes it a great ending, yeah. In that last scene, Cooper (or what's left of him) goes from confidence to confusion to being utterly lost. But even when he has no idea what's going on he grasps at whatever straws he can, because he refuses to give up.
Yup. And to expand on this a bit, at the end of the previous episode he basically has all of the answers. He is fully in control of himself, he defeats his doppelganger and Bob, and he is able to navigate the metaphysical realms and bend them to his will. He actually travels back in time and changes history to undo Laura's murder. His plan to bring her home fails, but he is at least partially successful in changing history. I interpreted the scene with Sarah stabbing Laura's picture as the Mother/Judy figure preventing him from bringing Laura home. The scene in the woods repeats at the start of Episode 18, which I read as Coop attempting the time loop more than once (does Twin Peaks ever show the same scene twice? I don't remember other examples). At this point he exits the Red Room and tries a new and radically different plan. I don't think the details here are important, so much as the fact that he presses on into strange new territory where he knows less and less about what is going on. I think he has some clues (some names in this realm have been mentioned elsewhere in the series), but he has once again moved into a place where his understanding of the rules of the world falls short. He gets Laura all the way to the front door of her home, but he is again rebuffed. His last action is an attempt to approach the problem from a new angle, starting over yet again. He is confused and out of his league, but he never gives up.

That's about as much as I could get in my first viewing. I think I'm gonna watch the whole thing (1,2, FWWM, 3) at some point in the near future. Something that I didn't think of at the time but makes a lot of sense now that I've read it is that Audrey's scenes are meant to be a key to interpreting the last episode. They both take place in a sort of dream world with different names, and there are some similarities in the roles that Charlie and Coop/Richard play. Audrey awakens and we get a brief glimpse of her in another space, but the scene cuts away from Carrie/Laura before we see what happens to her. I'm not 100% convinced of this, but it's something to think about.
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  #365  
Old 09-05-2017, 07:50 PM
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A few things I noticed that I'm not sure how fit together but I haven't seen anything or write ups mention them:

1. Who exactly is the real Diane? I don't suspect it was the one who Naido transforms into; right before the scene in the sheriff's station ends, everything goes black and Coop and Gordon call out to each other, as if they're disappearing somewhere else. The scene then comes back into the Great Northern basement where that sound has been coming from, as Coop, Gordon and Diane walk to a door that can be opened with Coop's old room key. Are these the same Diane and Gordon who were in Sheriff's station? Because if so, why call out to each other as if they're being driven apart? And then when Coop finds Diane again in the Black Lodge he asks "Is it really you?" And so then if this is the real Diane, what was Naido? Another tulpa or someone completely different? Which just makes the mystery of the Diane we see at the hotel later even deeper. Speaking of which...

2. The hotel that Coop/Diane stay and have weird, awkward sex in and the hotel Coop wakes up alone in are completely different. The former is a seedy, one floor motel and there car is parked in front of the room they stay in, room 7. When Coop leaves the next morning, the hotel looks significantly nicer from the outside, is two stories and the car is parked farther away from the lot, and also happens to be a completely different, nicer looking car. This begs the question: when exactly did Coop and Diane enter alternate dimensions, or how many different dimensions are there? We see the lodge disappear around them, and then cut to the car in the desert; we never actually see them leave Twin Peaks. Then at the spot 430 miles away,
there's that weird, shaky transition to night right before crossing the threshold where Coop said they might not recognize each other. So is that a different reality from the one they wake up in?

Another thought: In the first sequence with Audrey, Charlie says 'Is this the story of the little girl who lives down the lane?' which terrifies Audrey and is the same question that The Arm asks Cooper after trying to change time.
Is it possible that Charlie is another manifestation of The Arm like the small man from the series? Could Audrey be trapped in the lodge? If so, could she have been trapped there by Bad Coop/BOB, as those who he victimizes end up as lodge residents (see: Laura, Diane, or hell Annie, Coop and Leland)?
If that's the case, where DID Richard Horne come from?


Generally speaking I agree with most of what's been posted here about the ending and I feel trying to solve questions like the one I'm posing can be construed as missing the point, but these were all things I've been thinking about since Sunday. At the very least, that ending is going to haunt me forever.
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  #366  
Old 09-06-2017, 01:10 PM
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I have like half a theory about Diane and Naido.

During the sex scene, Diane starts pawing at Coop's face towards the end, almost like she's gradually going blind through it all. Know who else can't see? Naido.

I may be reading too much into it, but I feel like there's something there.
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  #367  
Old 09-08-2017, 12:37 AM
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This is a good "explanation", in the sense that it enriches the things explained rather than diminishes them (unlike most labyrinthine fan theorising, imo).

http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

Last edited by Klatrymadon; 09-08-2017 at 01:04 AM.
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  #368  
Old 09-08-2017, 08:46 AM
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I don't buy the conclusion that article comes to (though it's as valid as any other), but it definitely points out a lot of cool stuff.
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  #369  
Old 09-08-2017, 08:54 AM
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It makes sense enough to me. Not necessarily the truth, but a better framework than what I had before.
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  #370  
Old 09-08-2017, 08:57 AM
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It's definitely a good run-through of Lynch's off-center approach to mythology, for someone like me who has trouble keeping all of that mentally catalogued. Reading it all in a row on its own really makes the show feel cut off from everything Lynch seems to be saying about culture, modernity, nostalgia, and the real world in general, though. But that's a different level of interpretation.
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  #371  
Old 09-08-2017, 09:09 AM
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Did you all get the impression that Cooper succeeded in saving Laura in the past? To me it seemed that he failed, since he looked back and she wasn't there.
Also, I don't remember anything pointing to the dream world being a cage. I'm not saying that the analysis is wrong (it's certainly interesting and well written), but I'm not convinced that it's better than my initial interpretation or a dozen other theories I've read.
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  #372  
Old 09-08-2017, 09:19 AM
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I thought that too at first, but we do see her disappear from the beach, and the next time we see her after the disappearance, she's in the other world.
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  #373  
Old 09-08-2017, 10:46 AM
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The main thing that casts doubt on this explanation for me is that these final scenes take great pains to create the feeling that things are profoundly, unbearably wrong, and with Lynch that's usually quite straightforwardly because they are. It seems unlikely that the utterly thwarted, baffled Coop had - aha! - Actually Won.

Last edited by Klatrymadon; 09-08-2017 at 08:15 PM.
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  #374  
Old 09-11-2017, 06:22 AM
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I just finished watching the final episode. I'd say that article is mostly on point, except for maybe the part about Laura launching the spirit bomb to kill Judy. My initial reaction to the final scene was that Judy had found both Laura and Dale, and attacked or abducted them. Just getting Judy out of the "real" world and into the other timeline by using Laura and Dale as sacrifices might have been enough.

I think the theory of Dale using Laura as Judy bait checks out. When watching the last two episodes, I initially thought that Dale was trying to reverse Laura's death through pure altruism. Dale's purpose, as stated by Gordon, however, indicates that his MO had always been to find Judy. And if concern for Laura's safety was priority one, he'd never have taken her anywhere near an entity as dangerous as Judy.


I enjoyed the Return very much, and think it's completely bazonkers that Lynch directed every episode of this revival. How did he accomplish this during a normal TV production cycle without killing himself?
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  #375  
Old 09-11-2017, 06:26 AM
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What normal production schedule? They started filming two years ago.
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  #376  
Old 09-11-2017, 06:37 AM
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By "normal" I meant 1-2 years. Longer production cycles and delays between seasons aren't uncommon in this age of prestige TV.

Mostly I'm just blown away he directed every episode himself. The norm is usually to have a several directors do a few episodes a season. 18 hours over two years is still a hell of a lot.
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  #377  
Old 09-11-2017, 06:40 AM
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He didn't franchise it!
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  #378  
Old 09-11-2017, 07:03 AM
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ok fine let's rephrase

twin peaks: the return is crazy good. it's crazy it came out at all, and that it is this good. we don't deserve it
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  #379  
Old 09-11-2017, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
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ok fine let's rephrase

twin peaks: the return is crazy good. it's crazy it came out at all, and that it is this good. we don't deserve it
It's fucking remarkable and uncompromised. Peak Lynch.
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  #380  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:07 AM
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I've never heard of a regular show (not a big limited series or something) spending two years on just filming and post-production. They were writing and developing before that. But yeah, it's a crazy achievement and Lynch really dedicated himself to it.
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  #381  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:40 AM
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Here's a random thought: Now that The Return exists, is there a single top 10 episode of Twin Peaks that wasn't directed by David Lynch?
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  #382  
Old 09-20-2017, 09:59 PM
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So not only is possible that season 3 was Cooper's dream that he was living inside of, they also went back in time and effectively destroyed the entire series?
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