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  #61  
Old 11-01-2008, 11:49 AM
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Yeah - I mean, as much as I know it's theoretically possible to KO someone with a quick short, low-risk strike (think Foreman / Moorer), in order to make it work in a game you'd probably have to pay some kind of penalty if you came out in the first three seconds of round one throwing KO punches. But in addition to that, you do need to program in some form of "perfect shot" mechanic, whereas if I throw the right punch at the right time and catch an opponent unawares, he's done.
Victorious Boxers did this. It was really hard to pull off, but vurry satisfying.
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  #62  
Old 11-01-2008, 11:50 AM
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Victorious Boxers did this. It was really hard to pull off, but vurry satisfying.
Well, truth be told, Punch-Out kinda did as well - we all know it's possible to one-punch Glass Joe, for instance.
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  #63  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:09 PM
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Anyway, a big part of the reason that I think the traditional fighting game series = have been absolutely failing to interest me recently is that, yeah, if you totally take the ground game out of a fight and strictly turn it into DBZ-SF-style anime bullshit, you wind up with a much inferior product to the educated viewer*.
The educated viewer needs to get off his duff and watch some Sabaki. =)
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  #64  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:28 PM
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See, for me we're still ultimately dealing with such a limited 3D interaction - although things are getting better - that it's realistically just action taking place on a 2D plane in a 3D environment. VF5's gameplay style, for instance, is much closer to a Capcom / SNK game than it is to one of the older UFC games, where you had total freedom to move around the ring without inputting a specific button sequence to do so.
True, though I think there are degrees to which modern 3D fighters emulate their 2D ancestors. I think the VF series has been much better since VF4, but it could definitely benefit from more freedom in movement. Then there are other series like Tekken, which I feel haven't evolved much in over a decade, which is sad. This is also why I love the Soul Calibur series, since it's the one traditional 3D fighter that grants total 3D movement, even though the actual fighting often degenerates onto a more archaic 2D plane.

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Well, that's the thing - do you look at a fighting game as a sports-type game, where random outcomes are encouraged (EG, the occasional error in a baseball game or dropped pass in a football game leading to a better sense of reality) or do you look at them as mere outgrowths of traditional video game action titles, wherein during Contra every time you press "fire" you know what will happen? I've always preferred to think of fighting and wrestling games as ideally hewing closer to the former, and while wrestling games occasionally have gone there, fighting games haven't (with the exception of the most recent Smash Bros., with the neat "trip" randomness).

I mean, everyone who's played a sports game has a story of "I had you beat if that WR hadn't dropped the ball at the goal line", just like every sports fan can remember their team blowing a game by doing something similar. There's nothing wrong with that type of thing being part of gameplay - all it means is that next time, you try to do better and avoid being in the position where that type of thing CAN beat you.
Honestly, I think there is room for both a more realistic/sports-influenced fighting game and a traditional, 2D-plane fighter. I look at it much in the same way that I look at the racing genre. There are fantastic, realistic racing games that have evolved signifigantly from the ancestral roots of Pole Position, such as Gran Turismo and Forza, that offer a great simulation experience. There are also great arcadey racers such as Burnout series that go in the opposite direction.

I think the same should be true for the fighting genre as well. There should still be fighters such as the Capcom/SNK/Namco games that are evolutions of SFII, but there should defintely be games that offer a more realistic, sim-like experience, such as a MMA or boxing game. The problem, I feel, is that the majority of sports-themed fighting games in the past have been influenced greatly by the more "arcadey" games in the genre, both in presentation (life bars, etc.) and in mechanics. They appear to be a sports game on the surface, but they are ultimately limited by their traditional underpinnings. When people play something that looks/feels similar to a traditional fighter, they expect it to play like one. I think that some of the more recent sim fighters, like Fight Night on the 360 or the upcoming UFC 2009, seem to be remedying this and are separating themselves as a separate genre, which is a good thing. This is why I loved the old AKI wrestling games on the N64 but hate the Smackdown series: Smackdown feels like a (clunly) fighting game with wresters, while games like Revenge and No Mercy felt like a completely different game.
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  #65  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:43 PM
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Well, truth be told, Punch-Out kinda did as well - we all know it's possible to one-punch Glass Joe, for instance.
Yeah, it's not like that, though. Have you played VB?
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  #66  
Old 11-01-2008, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
The educated viewer needs to get off his duff and watch some Sabaki. =)
I tend to ignore anything where you're not allowed to punch / elbow to the head, which from my understanding is the big restriction (well, aside from the "no going to the ground" problem) in that type of competition.

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Yeah, it's not like that, though. Have you played VB?
Yeah (well, the Wii version, at least), and I thought that was probably the best aspect of it. But VB pretty much takes the concept of distance away, which is integral to the type of striking I think you need to have that one-punch knockout really feel special. Without the concept of range - with every punch being properly thrown - you kind of lose a lot of the appeal. Fight Night gets that very much right, but they tend to tone down the KOs a bit to force the game to be a more competitive.

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This is also why I love the Soul Calibur series, since it's the one traditional 3D fighter that grants total 3D movement, even though the actual fighting often degenerates onto a more archaic 2D plane.
Very good point, and probably why Soul Calibur's the only fighting game that feels as though it's actually an evolution from the traditional style.
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This is why I loved the old AKI wrestling games on the N64 but hate the Smackdown series: Smackdown feels like a (clunly) fighting game with wresters, while games like Revenge and No Mercy felt like a completely different game.
I don't mind Smackdown since I think I get what they're going at - they're not trying to simulate "what would happen if wreslting was real" like the Aki stuff, they're trying to make a controllable version of the product that airs on television - a simulated work, if that makes any sense (and it really doesn't if you think about it). My big issue is that they've basically been re-using the same engine for about 8 years at this point, and they still haven't corrected any of the obvious flaws in it.
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  #67  
Old 11-01-2008, 03:22 PM
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Yeah (well, the Wii version, at least), and I thought that was probably the best aspect of it. But VB pretty much takes the concept of distance away, which is integral to the type of striking I think you need to have that one-punch knockout really feel special. Without the concept of range - with every punch being properly thrown - you kind of lose a lot of the appeal. Fight Night gets that very much right, but they tend to tone down the KOs a bit to force the game to be a more competitive.
I need to pick up the Wii version now that it's in the discount bin. How were the controls? I never read a review from someone I trusted to not be infected with "Wii is for babies" thinking, so I wasn't sure whether to trust the reports of bad controls.

Anyway, that's a weird comment, because reach was a big factor in the first PS2 Victorious Boxers, which is the one I played to death. In fact, Ippo was often at a reach disadvantage, and learning how move through an opponent's jab and into striking range was key. If you still have a PS2 I'd really recommend picking it up. What I liked:

1. No energy bars. In fact, everything(health, stamina, damage, etc.) is completely black box.
2. You can work the body.
3. Countering is hard, but effective when done right.
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  #68  
Old 11-01-2008, 03:33 PM
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From looking at videos of VB2, they moved the perspective to behind more behind your boxer a la Punch-Out for the Wii version, which made it a lot harder to judge distance. I can see how one of the other games in the series would be better for that. Also, there weren't really any stamina consequences that I could see, so it basically devolved into a "who can throw punches faster" each time, and since I was playing against a couple of people who are really into cardio kickboxing, that didn't end well for me.

And as for the controls... well, let's just say that the game's REALLY good at recognizing jabs. Maybe if I'd had a chance to play for more than the hour or so I did I'd figure out exactly what it was looking for, but that didn't really happen.
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  #69  
Old 11-02-2008, 05:26 AM
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From looking at videos of VB2, they moved the perspective to behind more behind your boxer a la Punch-Out for the Wii version, which made it a lot harder to judge distance. I can see how one of the other games in the series would be better for that. Also, there weren't really any stamina consequences that I could see, so it basically devolved into a "who can throw punches faster" each time, and since I was playing against a couple of people who are really into cardio kickboxing, that didn't end well for me.
Oh man...NO. That is not the Victorious Boxers I fell in love with!

Stamina is a big factor in VB1. Throwing punches and taking body blows slows down your punches, which makes it a LOT harder to hit. You can't just throw punches constantly. Also, accumulating body blows makes you more vulnerable to knockouts from subsequent body shots.

Quote:
And as for the controls... well, let's just say that the game's REALLY good at recognizing jabs. Maybe if I'd had a chance to play for more than the hour or so I did I'd figure out exactly what it was looking for, but that didn't really happen.
The original game had a fairly steep learning curve because the controls were sensitive and fairly complex. Once you get it down though, it's totally worth it.

You should really, really track down VB1. I'd send you mine if I hadn't given it to my brothers.

Here's the Gamespot review from back in 2001:

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/sports/v...rs/review.html
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  #70  
Old 11-02-2008, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
I tend to ignore anything where you're not allowed to punch / elbow to the head, which from my understanding is the big restriction (well, aside from the "no going to the ground" problem) in that type of competition.
All I'm gonna say is that you're missing out on the best kicks by anyone not named Buakaw. And takedowns are allowed in Sabaki, just no ground game. Splitting hairs, I know.

Strikes to the head are vastly overrated in any situation where your fists aren't armored by a half pound or more of rubber, anyway. =p
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  #71  
Old 11-02-2008, 04:47 PM
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I don't think traditional fighters will ever get towards the random/one critical moment style of UFC or a football game. I think it would be quite interesting (I loved UFC on Dreamcast, and football period), but the sheer precision of most fighting games is something diehard fans would never ever want to remove.

In any case, I feel like more efforts should be made to make fighters as interesting as possible as a competition. VF5's commentary may suck, but the idea itself is great. This isn't to say they aren't still exciting now, but personally, I've been able to get a better "Feel" and appreciation for the events of a UFC fight after watching a dozen or so matches than I ever have watching just as many videos of 3rd Strike.
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  #72  
Old 11-02-2008, 05:06 PM
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This is odd...see, I never would have considered UFC games and the like as "fighting games" despite the fact that they're one on one fights. The reason being, simply put, is the way they play...It's a completely different mindset when you play those because they control way different than a Virtua Fighter or Street Fighter game. I always considered those more along the lines of Sports Games, since they're more trying to simulate the actual fight, rather than streamlining it with simple controls and more flash.
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  #73  
Old 11-02-2008, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by taidan View Post
I don't think traditional fighters will ever get towards the random/one critical moment style of UFC or a football game. I think it would be quite interesting (I loved UFC on Dreamcast, and football period), but the sheer precision of most fighting games is something diehard fans would never ever want to remove.
Yea, I'm pretty much part of that group. Part of what makes it so exciting is that ability to come back with literally one pixel of health left. It's why that Daigo video, to this day, keeps getting views. Having random things happen would, in the eyes of a lot of fighting games fans, cheapen the experience because situations would absolutely crop up where despite both competitors playing at their absolute best, it would be more about seeing who got lucky with random occurrences. It would basically be the whole brouhaha over tripping in Brawl all over again.

Quote:
In any case, I feel like more efforts should be made to make fighters as interesting as possible as a competition. VF5's commentary may suck, but the idea itself is great. This isn't to say they aren't still exciting now, but personally, I've been able to get a better "Feel" and appreciation for the events of a UFC fight after watching a dozen or so matches than I ever have watching just as many videos of 3rd Strike.
A strong part of it, I think, is a matter of visual intuition and developer intention. In your UFC example, even if someone doesn't really grasp the gameplay mechanics of the game, what they're seeing is fairly visually intuitive because it's looks sort of familiar and it seems to me like the developers intend for it to look familiar. And I don't mean that to sound like a bad thing, it's not like people have frames of invincibility in real life

Whereas with fighting games, (I think I've said something similar in this thread before) someone that doesn't know the relevant mindgames and situations has no idea what's going on, particularly in a game that can get as complex as VF5. And it's not like the guys over at Sega particularly design VF5 to even look realistic in terms of the fighting. I can't even imagine what watching professional Guilty Gear matches would be like to a complete newcomer of the genre.
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  #74  
Old 11-02-2008, 07:55 PM
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I've actually found myself grasping VF5 matches rather well. At least compared to 2d fighters. I think it is the animations, and the nature of its combo system. Virtua Fighter has that air of "serious f-ing fighter" about it, so while one might now know how hard one combo or another is, it is probably challenging enough. At that point I think it becomes easier to say "that was a great choice right there", etc.

I'm not sure how much randomness would be involved, if you wanted to avoid it. Yeah, in real life a blow can have a variety of results, but if a good hit ends the match, a lot of that would be due to the fact that it landed in the first place. That's not entirely random.

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Originally Posted by Riot.EXE View Post
This is odd...see, I never would have considered UFC games and the like as "fighting games" despite the fact that they're one on one fights. The reason being, simply put, is the way they play...It's a completely different mindset when you play those because they control way different than a Virtua Fighter or Street Fighter game. I always considered those more along the lines of Sports Games, since they're more trying to simulate the actual fight, rather than streamlining it with simple controls and more flash.
I don't think there's anything wrong with this classification. I do worry about how the stereotypes we associate to these communities, for better or worse, prevent them from being legitimate in one person or another's eyes, ie people who lambast the hardcore fighting game fans, and others who equate sports games to "lol Madden"
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  #75  
Old 11-02-2008, 08:11 PM
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The community needs to be more welcoming and less egotistical, if they really want people to join in...I think thats one of the bigger issues that needs to be addressed in terms of keeping the Genre alive.

Another thing, is that the developers need to take a good look at the competitive side of the genre as a whole, and figure out how to make that aspect accessable to newcomers. (read: teach the fuckers how to play the game completely...going as far back as to teaching what a Quarter Circle Forward + Punch is, how to do it, and knowing the various ways to read it, if they have to) I mean, you'd think that by now, they'd be privy to players figuring things out that may as well have deviated from the intended style of gameplay (SF2 and the advent of Combos comes to mind), and thusly acting accordingly to create a more refined experience the first time through.

...what it all boils down to is this: Effort needs to be made...by everyone involved.

...what the cynic inside me really thinks: Motherfuckers are gonna be pullin' "Nintendos" left and right...
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  #76  
Old 11-02-2008, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Riot.EXE View Post
The community needs to be more welcoming and less egotistical, if they really want people to join in...I think thats one of the bigger issues that needs to be addressed in terms of keeping the Genre alive.

Another thing, is that the developers need to take a good look at the competitive side of the genre as a whole, and figure out how to make that aspect accessable to newcomers. (read: teach the fuckers how to play the game completely...going as far back as to teaching what a Quarter Circle Forward + Punch is, how to do it, and knowing the various ways to read it, if they have to) I mean, you'd think that by now, they'd be privy to players figuring things out that may as well have deviated from the intended style of gameplay (SF2 and the advent of Combos comes to mind), and thusly acting accordingly to create a more refined experience the first time through.

...what it all boils down to is this: Effort needs to be made...by everyone involved.

...what the cynic inside me really thinks: Motherfuckers are gonna be pullin' "Nintendos" left and right...
All great points. We'll see how SF4 is judged by the mainstream, since Capcom seems to at least hope that it'll move away from precise inputs and become more of a focus on reading moves.

One huge effort that I wish someone would undertake pertains to joysticks. People equate playing fighters with a stick to when we first adjusted to mouse/keyboard controls in FPS games. The nice thing about that was that a mouse and keyboard is standard issue for a PC. For a home console, the stick is an accessory. And hey, that is fine. I even think it is fine if the highest quality sticks demand a high price tag. But if you that is what you want, you're looking at either a custom job, or hoping the high quality japanese products are easy to obtain.

Wasn't the official Dreamcast stick held in good regard? We need more of that. Something official, high quantity, even if it is expensive.
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  #77  
Old 11-02-2008, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by taidan View Post
All great points. We'll see how SF4 is judged by the mainstream, since Capcom seems to at least hope that it'll move away from precise inputs and become more of a focus on reading moves.

One huge effort that I wish someone would undertake pertains to joysticks. People equate playing fighters with a stick to when we first adjusted to mouse/keyboard controls in FPS games. The nice thing about that was that a mouse and keyboard is standard issue for a PC. For a home console, the stick is an accessory. And hey, that is fine. I even think it is fine if the highest quality sticks demand a high price tag. But if you that is what you want, you're looking at either a custom job, or hoping the high quality japanese products are easy to obtain.

Wasn't the official Dreamcast stick held in good regard? We need more of that. Something official, high quantity, even if it is expensive.
Glad you agree with my points.

I think the problem with arcade sticks being sold today, is that there isn't much "reason" to do so. Arcades are pretty much dead. the newer fighters that come to console these days, most people never had the chance to see in an arcade anymore...therefore, you potentially lose the chance to gain new customers because in their mind, there is no experience to replicate. Us old timers/veterans/whatevers...we know what that was like...we knew that if we were gonna play at all, we were gonna play on a stick. When it came time for the game to come home, the pad felt a little akward (depending on the game...personally, I can manage on both just fine), so we would perfer to go out and buy a decent joystick, so we could pull off whatever moves and techniques we needed to pull off more easily. Nowadays, if you're gonna sell a stick to people, it's best to do it as a package, like Tekken 5 did, or to a lesser extent...Street Fighter Anniversary collection and Dead or Alive 4 (which weren't packages, but you knew what it was for because it was based on a source material). That is the best option to get a stick in someones hands because you know they're gonna use it when it's packaged with a fighting game. Problem with that, is that Fighting games in and of themselves have become such a Niche Genre...not much money is going to be made back off of a special edition like that...no one is going to pay for a stick unless they know they have a love for fighting games.

Basically, the now-lack of the natural habitat for the peripheral in most places ruins the possibility of said peripheral selling successfully...you can't rely on the diehard alone to get your money...
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  #78  
Old 11-04-2008, 07:10 AM
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Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix is finally almost out! Sure took them long enough.
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  #79  
Old 11-04-2008, 07:55 AM
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I wish they would release this on Steam.
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  #80  
Old 11-04-2008, 08:08 AM
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I wish they would release this on Steam.
This hurts because it would work so well. Capcom's on Steam already, it has achievement support, an online infrastructure. Come on Capcom, be cool(er than you already have been).
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  #81  
Old 11-05-2008, 12:24 AM
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This hurts because it would work so well. Capcom's on Steam already, it has achievement support, an online infrastructure. Come on Capcom, be cool(er than you already have been).
You're Right.
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  #82  
Old 11-05-2008, 01:27 AM
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The King of Fighters Orochi Saga Collection for the PS2 has been out for a few days. I haven't picked up yet, but word on the street (or internet forums) is that its a disappointment. Rather than localizing the Japanese Orochi Hen compilation, they basically just had the same team that did the Metal Slug Anthology and did a different compilation with the same games, but without the same quality (stricter controls, loading times, and no arranged soundtracks).
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  #83  
Old 11-05-2008, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Riot.EXE View Post
Basically, the now-lack of the natural habitat for the peripheral in most places ruins the possibility of said peripheral selling successfully...you can't rely on the diehard alone to get your money...
I'd agree with this except in the case of the 360 controller. The D-pad on that thing is so poor that I can't imagine anyone not looking for an alternative.
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  #84  
Old 11-05-2008, 07:27 AM
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The King of Fighters Orochi Saga Collection for the PS2 has been out for a few days. I haven't picked up yet, but word on the street (or internet forums) is that its a disappointment. Rather than localizing the Japanese Orochi Hen compilation, they basically just had the same team that did the Metal Slug Anthology and did a different compilation with the same games, but without the same quality (stricter controls, loading times, and no arranged soundtracks).
I have it. The load times vary between games, but for most gamers it is unnacceptable to have any. They really suck when doing challenge mode stuff, since it reloads after every attempt, with no instant restart.

Arrange soundtracks are unlockable to listen to, but so far I don't think you can play with them. The game also has a ton of artwork to unlock, but every time you view one it slowly loads the image piece by piece. Its weird, and another example of being too slow for its own good.

I'll be honest - I love KOF to death, but I never experienced these oldies in the arcade. Arrange soundtracks mean jack squat to me, and I'll get over the load times. I still wish they weren't issues though. In case no one knows, this, Metal Slug Anthology, and the SNK Classics vol. 1 were done by Terminal Reality, AKA the guys making the new Ghostbusters game. Either this lack of quality is indicative of how that will turn out, or these guys are only doing as good a job as they are being paid for. I still don't understand how they could have such horrid load times when other, newer fighters run so well on the console.

Even worse is that all the promises of seeing other KOF games on VC and XBLA is like a roll of the dice with SNK. You never can tell what or when they'll release something.

PS - once again, thank toast for Gametap. Once I get a computer desk it'll be much easier to play these babies in perfect emulation.
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  #85  
Old 11-05-2008, 01:21 PM
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Its just that after the excellent job G1M2 did with the Fatal Fury Battle Archives and Art of Fighting Anthology (and that World Heroes Anthology), I don't know why they didn't just localize Orochi Hen for the PS2 and throw in KoF '94 Re-bout in a bundle, and then just release the Terminal Realities version on the PSP and Wii as a separate thing.

The biggest thing I'm worried about is the strict controls. If they're as bad as KoF 2k2 on the PS2 (where the MAX-level Super Special Moves are nearly impossible to pull off), I'm just gonna skip it completely and get KoF XI instead.
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  #86  
Old 11-05-2008, 01:48 PM
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Is the Samurai Shodown collection still coming out in the US, or has that been pushed back/cancelled?
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  #87  
Old 11-05-2008, 02:23 PM
Jonny2x4 Jonny2x4 is offline
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Its still listed on SNK Playmore's site, along with KoF '98 Ultimate Match (the KoF '98 remake with the extra characters).
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  #88  
Old 11-05-2008, 05:00 PM
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Riot.EXE Riot.EXE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abominable K View Post
I'd agree with this except in the case of the 360 controller. The D-pad on that thing is so poor that I can't imagine anyone not looking for an alternative.
I can...ever read any kind of review for a fighting game on 360? It's like people forgot there WAS one for 360 (which I own...so I have no gripes)
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  #89  
Old 11-05-2008, 06:19 PM
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AGStinger AGStinger is offline
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I feel like I got left behind by fighting games when the combo systems and super cancels, etc. got all crazy. I was way into the early Neo Geo stuff and all the SNES-era fighters but I can barely pick one up without feeling instantly over my head, and shortly going back to Puzzle Quest.

That has been the best part of GameTap for me: the access to all the great(?) Neo-Geo fighters. Those are my best arcade memories--cheap World Heroes victories with Dragon. I tried so hard to really get into SF Alpha 2 on Tap but all those characters, all those combos...I'm too simple a guy.

At the risk of being stereotypically old and grouchy, they do not make them like they used to...
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  #90  
Old 11-05-2008, 06:53 PM
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mrbuu82 mrbuu82 is offline
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If nothing else, it is nice to see that move sets for characters have blossomed with time. I remember playing the Ranma 1/2 fighting game on the SNES a few years ago and was blown away by the fact that everyone had two or three special moves. It's a little better in the early SNK fighters and the Street Fighter IIs, but things really came to a head with Capcom games like Darkstalkers and X-Men/Marvel Superheroes.
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