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  #31  
Old 10-30-2008, 07:25 PM
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Hell, even KOF XI is going to look hella dated when the next installment of the game is released.
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  #32  
Old 10-30-2008, 07:36 PM
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yeah, but we still don't really know if that one's going to play as pretty as it looks. fingers crossed!
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  #33  
Old 10-30-2008, 10:34 PM
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Does anyone on here play on an online client such as GGPO or 2DF? That's pretty much where I've been going to get my Super Turbo and Third Strike fix as of late. There's some great competition there.
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  #34  
Old 10-30-2008, 11:02 PM
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I've heard a lot of people crediting GGPO with a resurgence in Super Turbo's popularity, maybe I should get in on that action. It's a pity none of the GGXX games outside of #Reloaded were published for PC though. I would love online play for Slash or Accent Core since my current competition in the latter is all people that can easily kick my ass... none of whom play Faust. It doesn't help either that Faust is ridiculous to play on a PS2 controller.
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  #35  
Old 10-30-2008, 11:47 PM
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I just wanted to add another vote for Power Stone. That game was the reason I bought a Dreamcast. (I later enjoyed many other games on it)

SNK vs Capcom 2 is the game I play most when I want my fighter fix, but the classics like SFII Turbo etc are always a good choice.

I didn't like Battle Colosseum. It's hard to put my finger on why, but something about it just wasn't fun for me.
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  #36  
Old 10-31-2008, 07:42 AM
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I LOOOOOOOOOOOVE Fighting Games, and Yes, I do use GGPO on occasion, so if anyone wants to throw down at some point, I am Game...

...as for what I play...that is a huge list, but I haven't played Big Bang Beat, Akatsuki Blitzkampf, or Immaterial-er-whatever...(never even seen that one in action...)
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  #37  
Old 10-31-2008, 10:23 AM
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I just wanted to say that, while I looooove fighting games, I'm not particularly good at them. I mean, I consider myself slighly above average, but I'm always a little hesitant to declare my love for such a competitive genre when I'm not that great at it. I have a similar problem to the one Parish mentioned on the SFII Retronauts. I could always tear apart my friends, since they were've very good at games in general, but I would get destroyed at the local arcades by top-tier players. I've been perpetually stuck at a "middle tier" in fighting games since the SFII days.
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  #38  
Old 10-31-2008, 02:46 PM
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I've gone on GGPO a couple times, mainly to play my friends. Every time I've played anyone other than my friends I've been smashed into the ground.

Still, a new set of abusers would be nice... I think caliscrub is also my GGPO name, although I can't remember right now. I can go on sometime this weekend if people want to play some A2/A3/Super Turbo.
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  #39  
Old 10-31-2008, 03:06 PM
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So, here's something I've been wondering about for awhile, and have decided to submit to TT's collective fighting game knowledge: Are there any fighters besides the WWF and UFC licensed games that have a grappling, throwing, submission, counter, ground fighting, and/or disarm systems more complex than "universal combo breaker, throw button, and block button"?
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  #40  
Old 10-31-2008, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brer View Post
So, here's something I've been wondering about for awhile, and have decided to submit to TT's collective fighting game knowledge: Are there any fighters besides the WWF and UFC licensed games that have a grappling, throwing, submission, counter, ground fighting, and/or disarm systems more complex than "universal combo breaker, throw button, and block button"?
No. and with good reason.
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  #41  
Old 10-31-2008, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Riot.EXE View Post
No. and with good reason.
Yes....?
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  #42  
Old 10-31-2008, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brer View Post
So, here's something I've been wondering about for awhile, and have decided to submit to TT's collective fighting game knowledge: Are there any fighters besides the WWF and UFC licensed games that have a grappling, throwing, submission, counter, ground fighting, and/or disarm systems more complex than "universal combo breaker, throw button, and block button"?
Out of curiosity, how do the WWF and UFC systems work?

Also, universal combo breakers have been a fairly recent innovation in fighting games, or at least they've only been popularized recently. As far as I know the Guilty Gear series was the first to have such a feature. Before, all we had was pretty much throw and block, heh.

Off the top of my head, one possible answer to your question is that even with just those few elements, the "ground fighting" element of fighting games is stupendously complex. That classic triangle in fighting games of Throw beats Block beats Attack beats Throw is so potent that I can probably count on one hand the number of fighting games I've played that don't use it. And that's before you even start adding in the little peculiarities of each specific game that lets each leg of the triangle function, or that gives each part of the triangle its own triangle situation. Adding in more options could end up being overkill.
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  #43  
Old 10-31-2008, 09:46 PM
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I'm really hoping some good fighting game ports hit XBLA or the 360 in general before the system is dead. I love Capcom vs. SNK2 and Marvel vs. Capcom 2, but outside of Smash Bros. none of my friends will touch fighters. Online is my only hope for fun times ;[.

I am also seriously considering buying an arcade stick for Street Fighter IV on the 360. And it doesn't hurt that SSFIIHD is finally coming out.
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  #44  
Old 10-31-2008, 09:56 PM
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I'd wait and see how the Street Fighter IV stick fares before investing. Apparently the Hori EXs are breaking down en masse, and the HRAP costs more than anyone playing casually would probably want to spend on a controller.
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  #45  
Old 10-31-2008, 10:33 PM
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I wish there was a cheap Playstation controller converter for the Xbox 360. It's really one of the system's Achilles' Heels. I've got the Saturn replica pad and although I can use it on the old-school Xbox with an adapter, that option isn't available to me for the Xbox 360. Yes, I could pay $100 for that converter that includes ports for a keyboard and mouse, but... no, scratch that. There's no way I have the money for it, and no way I'd spend that much even if I did.
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  #46  
Old 10-31-2008, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by UnChocolate View Post
I've never played the original, but I had loads of fun with Power Stone 2. I like the mummy dude, whatever his name is.
This guy? Right here?

He gets it.

Jack 4 lyfe
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  #47  
Old 10-31-2008, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Brer View Post
Yes....?
It's one of those "Hasn't been done well before" type dealies. Most grappling systems boil down to either rapid button-pressing fights, bullshit QTE-style minigame, or simplistic timing one-touch timing (the way it's done in most games).

also ground fighting is like super duper boring to watch there's a reason they don't use it in movies man

The only game I can think of where throws are a means of punishing turtles is Aki's wrestling games, where the system is a bit rock paper scissors in that Striking<Counters/Weapons<Grapples<Striking
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  #48  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by UnChocolate View Post
Out of curiosity, how do the WWF and UFC systems work?
Speaking mostly from demos here, but the UFC games have two control sets (standing and ground) and a slightly different "triangle" (as you put it) with takedowns/submissions instead of throws, and a specific counter for each attack type. After that it's determined by fighter and player speed, fighter weight, etc. The problem is that it ends up being a lot about throwing the right counter until the guy on the offense makes a mistake, then immediately launching a takedown and (if they don't stop you) a submission. The WWF games are basically a 3D fighter with the added ability to do situation specific special moves (by getting close to or up on the ropes, etc). In both cases the end result is neither realistic nor particularly fun, IMO.

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Originally Posted by onimaruxlr View Post
also ground fighting is like super duper boring to watch there's a reason they don't use it in movies man
See, there I have to disagree. It requires more knowledge on the part of the observer, but once you know -what- you're watching it's plenty fun to watch. I hate most sports, so this may well be a bad analogy, but I think it's like the difference between watching an american football match and only knowing "down the field is good" versus knowing the significance of the different patterns and plays.
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  #49  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Brer View Post
See, there I have to disagree. It requires more knowledge on the part of the observer, but once you know -what- you're watching it's plenty fun to watch. I hate most sports, so this may well be a bad analogy, but I think it's like the difference between watching an american football match and only knowing "down the field is good" versus knowing the significance of the different patterns and plays.
You make a good point there and this video proves it, in my experience. I've shown it to various people and most didn't get why it's such an amazing feat, but those that have played this game know why that is.

UnChocolate - Killer Instinct did it first, in terms of making it an essential part of the fight, as far as I know...
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  #50  
Old 11-01-2008, 12:55 AM
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Hey, you guys remember Fighter's Destiny at all? It was a Nintendo 64 release, and one of the few good fighting games for the system. It had an intriguing point system, instead of the best two of three round format that most fighting games use. Different takedowns earn you varying amounts of points, with the most elaborate attacks earning the most points. Earn seven and you move on to the next battle. The gameplay was most similar to Virtua Fighter, but the point system made it an altogether different experience.
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  #51  
Old 11-01-2008, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Riot.EXE View Post
You make a good point there and this video proves it, in my experience. I've shown it to various people and most didn't get why it's such an amazing feat, but those that have played this game know why that is.

UnChocolate - Killer Instinct did it first, in terms of making it an essential part of the fight, as far as I know...
Eurgh, enough of Daigo vs. JWong. That video gets cited way too often in my opinion, and I've seen many other people pull off the same feat in tournament settings. It's impressive certainly, but a)JWong almost certainly knew he was taking a large gamble on throwing out the super and b)Daigo was very clearly baiting it (refer back to part a). Besides, I always thought it was that video, more than anything else, which endeared 3S to the crowds.

Ground fighting I think is a great thing to base a game around, if we're talking about "footsies". It can definitely look funny/boring to the uninitiated because they don't know about optimal ranges, baiting, etc, but I think it's s one of the things that makes older games like Super Turbo so long-lasting. Speaking of which, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure on the DC rocks, as does CvS2, both of which I just recently started playing.

Actually yea, I was thinking of Killer Instinct when I wrote that. However, if I remember correctly, you actually had like 3 different combo breakers that worked in an RPS-type thing which you could throw out at certain points in any combo, and not a single unified and limited mechanism like GGXX's Blue Bursts which sounded more like what he was talking about.
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  #52  
Old 11-01-2008, 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Riot.EXE View Post
You make a good point there and this video proves it, in my experience. I've shown it to various people and most didn't get why it's such an amazing feat, but those that have played this game know why that is.
I have deep pity for anyone who can watch that finish and be unmoved. That's the Street Fighter equivalent to Corrales-Castillo I or Lewis-Conn; it should be enshrined.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChocolate
Eurgh, enough of Daigo vs. JWong.
man you got no love of spectacle

Last edited by Ample Vigour; 11-01-2008 at 02:17 AM. Reason: no love at all
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  #53  
Old 11-01-2008, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by UnChocolate View Post
Eurgh, enough of Daigo vs. JWong. That video gets cited way too often in my opinion, and I've seen many other people pull off the same feat in tournament settings. It's impressive certainly, but a)JWong almost certainly knew he was taking a large gamble on throwing out the super and b)Daigo was very clearly baiting it (refer back to part a). Besides, I always thought it was that video, more than anything else, which endeared 3S to the crowds.

Ground fighting I think is a great thing to base a game around, if we're talking about "footsies". It can definitely look funny/boring to the uninitiated because they don't know about optimal ranges, baiting, etc, but I think it's s one of the things that makes older games like Super Turbo so long-lasting. Speaking of which, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure on the DC rocks, as does CvS2, both of which I just recently started playing.

Actually yea, I was thinking of Killer Instinct when I wrote that. However, if I remember correctly, you actually had like 3 different combo breakers that worked in an RPS-type thing which you could throw out at certain points in any combo, and not a single unified and limited mechanism like GGXX's Blue Bursts which sounded more like what he was talking about.
I just thought the video was a good example of what he was talking about, thats the only reason why I bothered citing it, thats all. To the uninitiated, the parrying looks like a block...they don't know the difference. We, on the other hand, know that it's a Parry, not a block, and the maneuver for doing it is to tap forward rather than away, which makes it risky...and also a matter of knowing the timing of moves...sure we see it a lot in high level play so it's not THAT big a deal to us anymore...but the uninitiated have no fucking clue about the WHY behind it.

What Brer was speaking of with the "ground based combat" of shit like UFC is much the same...to me, it looks like a few punches, and then one guy is pulling someone elses arm while rolling on the ground...it looks simple, but there's probably so much more going on that I, the uninitiated spectator, have no clue about.

Basically...I was just reinforcing the point...sorry I picked such an overplayed (at this point) video, but it was the best example I could think of, based on my own experience when I first saw that video and showed it to non-fighting game-friends (read: 95% involved with any kind of video gaming that I know personally)

ArugulaZ - I remember Fighters Destiny...never played the sequel, but that game was probably the only GOOD fighting game for N64, aside from...y'know, I don't even know...
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  #54  
Old 11-01-2008, 09:09 AM
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Last time I played, Wrestling games varied a lot. Back on the N64, No Mercy and its predecessor had basic punches/kicks, and a grapple button. You did a weak or strong grapple and then did a move. These could be countered and what not, and sometimes it was better to do lots of weak grapples in order to wear an opponent down.

The Smackdown series was always about hitting the one grapple button and a shitty "cinematic" move would execute. I don't know what the new ones are like but back then they were quite different from traditional fighters, if for no other reason than the fact that it was difficult how much damage you had dealt or what could/couldn't be countered and how.
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  #55  
Old 11-01-2008, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Riot.EXE View Post
What Brer was speaking of with the "ground based combat" of shit like UFC is much the same...to me, it looks like a few punches, and then one guy is pulling someone elses arm while rolling on the ground...it looks simple, but there's probably so much more going on that I, the uninitiated spectator, have no clue about.
Heh, I've never played that particular SF, but I've played enough fighters to know (back when I first saw that video) that it was fairly impressive. I can try and dig up a similarly illustrative video, but it may take me a bit because I don't follow UFC and so on enough to remember specific fights. Most of my experience comes from the Army and being lucky enough to have an extremely experienced arnisador, a national wrestling finalist, and a few other guys with good backgrounds in our unit so that we spent a lot of time on combatives.

Riot.EXE's got it right, UnChocolate, ground fighting (basically), is the set of techniques used in any martial art system when you and/or your oppoent end up on the ground. It's a very important part of most self-defense/ "practical" martial arts schools for the same reason that it became so big in the UFC back when it started, namely that outside of fairly formal tournaments, fights can very easily end up on the ground and once that happens, the guy who's trained specifically for that has a serious advantage.

Anyway, back in the realm of fighters, I agree that it's probably something that's really hard to do right. It's just something that I'd really like to see at least toyed with more.
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  #56  
Old 11-01-2008, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Riot.EXE View Post
I just thought the video was a good example of what he was talking about, thats the only reason why I bothered citing it, thats all. To the uninitiated, the parrying looks like a block...they don't know the difference. We, on the other hand, know that it's a Parry, not a block, and the maneuver for doing it is to tap forward rather than away, which makes it risky...and also a matter of knowing the timing of moves...sure we see it a lot in high level play so it's not THAT big a deal to us anymore...but the uninitiated have no fucking clue about the WHY behind it.

What Brer was speaking of with the "ground based combat" of shit like UFC is much the same...to me, it looks like a few punches, and then one guy is pulling someone elses arm while rolling on the ground...it looks simple, but there's probably so much more going on that I, the uninitiated spectator, have no clue about.

Basically...I was just reinforcing the point...sorry I picked such an overplayed (at this point) video, but it was the best example I could think of, based on my own experience when I first saw that video and showed it to non-fighting game-friends (read: 95% involved with any kind of video gaming that I know personally)
Yea, sorry if I sounded a bit antagonistic there. I'm not a huge fan of 3rd Strike myself, so it can annoy me sometimes to see that video lauded all the time as the greatest thing ever in fighting games.
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  #57  
Old 11-01-2008, 09:56 AM
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Yea, sorry if I sounded a bit antagonistic there. I'm not a huge fan of 3rd Strike myself, so it can annoy me sometimes to see that video lauded all the time as the greatest thing ever in fighting games.
Nah, it's cool.

...and that small clip was the only amazing thing about that match. The guy that did the parry fest actually lost that 2 out of 3 battle...so, yeah.
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  #58  
Old 11-01-2008, 10:10 AM
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Geez, how'd I miss this argument as the resident MMA / wrestling game fan around here?

Anyway, a big part of the reason that I think the traditional fighting game series = have been absolutely failing to interest me recently is that, yeah, if you totally take the ground game out of a fight and strictly turn it into DBZ-SF-style anime bullshit, you wind up with a much inferior product to the educated viewer*. The VF games *kinda* get close to what would work (they're pretty competent when it comes to ground striking, if not grappling), but realistically until we see the new UFC game there's not going to be a game that actually interests me in terms of simulting a fight instead of some horribly messed up perception of what a fight is. That's pretty fair - after all, these games all date back to before the first UFC (or Pancrease in Japan, I suppose) when people thought that karate practitioners would have a decent chance against someone trained in a more overall style - but it's something that really should have changed by now, since we know better.

A big problem is that, in an actual MMA fight, there's always the sense that one good shot - or a mistake made while grappling - can end a fight instantly. Getting a game to simulate these flash KOs or submissions is *very* tricky (the first UFC games did the submissions fine, but skipped on the KOs - where, truth be told, even boxing games are reluctant to go). The closest thing we've ever really gotten was the near-perfect system of the Aki games - especially with WM2K, since that utilised the "quick submission" option that basically said "if you screw up and get caught with something, it's game over." This led to a nice result, although certain submissions were a bit too easy to catch. Still, a game that can accurately simulate the finish of the first Severn / Shamrock fight (shoot attempt countered into guillotine, instant submission) is doing something right.

[An aside: this is where the Fire Pro games stumble badly, with the goofy submission moves. The Criticals help a *bit* if they're turned up to max, but the games just don't work for MMA. Valiant attempt, poor end product.]

The added bonus with the Aki system was that it accurately modeled bodypart-specific damage, as well, so even if you weren't playing with quick submissions on you were rewarded for being focused on attacking one part of the body consistently with your opponent having an inability to utilise it (think back to the Forrest Griffin / Quinton Jackson fight from earlier this year, where the entire fight turned on Griffin's ability to use leg kicks to take away Jackson's mobility and power** - that's what you want out of a truly great fighting game).

By just separating attacks into individual encounters without consequence, most fighting games these days make those attacks vritually pointless. What I want - what should happen - is that if I choose to take away an opponent's mobility by attacking their legs, they shouldn't be able to jump as well or move as fast. If I work on an arm, they shouldn't be able to punch effectively. Any time you can bring strategy into a game in real-time, a game improves - and the stagnancy of fighting games shows that the failure to do so is hurting the genre overall.

That's why the Aki games are still more fun than any fighter - especially VPW2, since that added the full-on MMA mode that we only got a hint of domestically in Def Jam 2. They really understood how to take a real fight (or the Japanese perception of wrestling-as-shoot) and translate it into an incredibly fun videogame... but the fact that the basis was what would really happen made them a lot more entertaining than your standard combo-heavy fighting game from Capcom or SNK. The UFC games (and PRIDE) weren't bad for that, but they struggled a bit with execution. Presumably THQ will get their UFC games up to a high level, but of course since it's the modern, we'll-choose-Yukes-over-Aki version of THQ, there's always a risk of a screwup on their part.

But lord knows the idea of playing out a real version Lesnar vs Couture is a lot more interesting than the 30th rendition of Ken vs Ryu. Time for some actual evolution.

* - And I'm not especially "educated" - I just take the occasional BJJ or kickboxing class at my friend's school.

** - While scoring with the judges. Happily, the one thing a game will get right without difficulty is judging, since unlike in the real world damage in a video game IS quantifiable. Hopefully they make their judging editable, though, as I want to be able to tweak it (unlike the previous UFC games, where you got no credit at all for ground control).
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  #59  
Old 11-01-2008, 10:46 AM
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Loads of good stuff.
I agree with practically everything you said, save for the comparisons to Capcom or SNK fighters. This could just be me, but I have a hard time comparing and contrasting 3D fighters to 2D fighters - a game of Capcom vs. SNK 2 feels entirely different to me than, say, Virtua Fighter 5. Maybe it's because I've been indoctrinated by the mechanics of 2D fighters from days gone by, but I don't expect them to evolve in the same way as their 3D brethren.

But 3D fighters are a different story. I would love to see a game that has the feeling of "one good shot" that you mentioned - that one mistake can completely turn the tide. Of course, this is somewhat hard to implement in a game, since if someone is suddenly taken out by a single haymaker when they've been dominating the entire fight previously. Most players expect predictable, quantifiable outcomes in their games, and when you throw in seemingly random outcomes, they become angry. Of course, I think this could be avoided if an entire game (such as, a great UFC game, or even a great boxing game) was based on a risk/reward mechanic.*

Did anyone play the original Bushido Blade? It just occurred to me that it has many of the features we're talking about (limb-damage, the ability to end a fight in seconds, capitalizing on an opponent's mistake, etc.). It was pretty rough even for the time, but it had a lot of great ideas that were unfortunately never adopted by the genre, or even its own sequel.

*And by risk/reward system, I mean something that is a natural extension of capitalizing on mistakes, and not some canned, unnatural throw mechanic or something. I'm looking at you, DoA.
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:00 AM
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Sven Sven is offline
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a game of Capcom vs. SNK 2 feels entirely different to me than, say, Virtua Fighter 5.
See, for me we're still ultimately dealing with such a limited 3D interaction - although things are getting better - that it's realistically just action taking place on a 2D plane in a 3D environment. VF5's gameplay style, for instance, is much closer to a Capcom / SNK game than it is to one of the older UFC games, where you had total freedom to move around the ring without inputting a specific button sequence to do so.

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Most players expect predictable, quantifiable outcomes in their games, and when you throw in seemingly random outcomes, they become angry.
Well, that's the thing - do you look at a fighting game as a sports-type game, where random outcomes are encouraged (EG, the occasional error in a baseball game or dropped pass in a football game leading to a better sense of reality) or do you look at them as mere outgrowths of traditional video game action titles, wherein during Contra every time you press "fire" you know what will happen? I've always preferred to think of fighting and wrestling games as ideally hewing closer to the former, and while wrestling games occasionally have gone there, fighting games haven't (with the exception of the most recent Smash Bros., with the neat "trip" randomness).

I mean, everyone who's played a sports game has a story of "I had you beat if that WR hadn't dropped the ball at the goal line", just like every sports fan can remember their team blowing a game by doing something similar. There's nothing wrong with that type of thing being part of gameplay - all it means is that next time, you try to do better and avoid being in the position where that type of thing CAN beat you.

Quote:
Of course, I think this could be avoided if an entire game (such as, a great UFC game, or even a great boxing game) was based on a risk/reward mechanic.*
Yeah - I mean, as much as I know it's theoretically possible to KO someone with a quick short, low-risk strike (think Foreman / Moorer), in order to make it work in a game you'd probably have to pay some kind of penalty if you came out in the first three seconds of round one throwing KO punches. But in addition to that, you do need to program in some form of "perfect shot" mechanic, whereas if I throw the right punch at the right time and catch an opponent unawares, he's done. What I don't like is the Critical mechanic from Fire Pro, where it's TOTALLY random - I could kick a guy 30 times and the 31st will be the knockout, and I can kick him once the next time and knock him out. That may be realistic, but there's no way of telling if you're doing anything better or worse due to the way the game works, and it's weaker as a result.

(Shit, forgot that I need to do an update of my Fire Pro roster.)

Quote:
Did anyone play the original Bushido Blade? It just occurred to me that it has many of the features we're talking about (limb-damage, the ability to end a fight in seconds, capitalizing on an opponent's mistake, etc.). It was pretty rough even for the time, but it had a lot of great ideas that were unfortunately never adopted by the genre, or even its own sequel.
I liked BB a lot - it seemed like a natural fighting counterpart to the Aki wrestling games. You're right that it was rough - a little too ambitious for a game just running on PS1 - but there's was a good core there that merited refinement beyond the sequel we got.
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