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  #61  
Old 06-03-2015, 07:13 PM
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I really don't care for Blizzard's pricing models, either. But I'm such a huge superfan that I just have to grin and bear it ... which is, of course, the second most hoped for response, the first being absolute acceptance in the form of whale wallets.

Also, tower diving isn't the worst thing in the world, but it's pretty bad, particularly early game. The towers hit like a truck low-level, and, more importantly, there are any number of characters that can and will punish you for going too close to the towers. Diablo, Stitches, Kerrigan, Arthas, Uther, Muradin and Johanna, just to name a few, can keep you in position long enough for an early, easy gank, or even just be murdered by tower fire. And Nova and Zeratul can kill you before you run back to your own gates. And what do you hope to gain by diving? You're not laning. You have a very low chance of doing anything substantial to the gates, low level. You're almost assuredly throwing the game for the opposite team for no good effect.

Obviously, there are some instances where tower diving isn't that bad. Sylvanas and Zagara have ways to mitigate the effect of towers, though it bears keeping in mind that it's still dangerous because of the gank possibility. And there's push comps, though people running 1Su4Sp are always going to be a premade (the matchmaker will never create a team like on its own) and since it requires a lot of finesse, the folks in the group know what the hell they're about. Probably.

But yeah, if you're in a pub group and NOT running a Specialist who's built for specifically that (and even then), you're almost assuredly griefing your own team.
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  #62  
Old 06-03-2015, 07:29 PM
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Had a lot of fun with Paul and Destil tonight. Wasn't half bad, as I was expecting to be murdered relentlessly even by the AI matches and I didn't even die at all in the last couple rounds. Tried Valla and Li Li so far, think I've pretty much got the hang of Valla even though I don't know all her talent stuff at all. Pretty good at handing out damage like candy, which is the important part. Li Li I'm less sure about, though the only time I died in the one Li Li run was due to an overzealous core push that also killed Paul and one other hero I think.
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  #63  
Old 06-03-2015, 07:35 PM
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Biggest problem with tower-diving: tower projectiles slow your movement.
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  #64  
Old 06-03-2015, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
Biggest problem with tower-diving: tower projectiles slow your movement.
HOW DID I FORGET THIS

Brb quitting Heroes forever in shame
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  #65  
Old 06-03-2015, 08:00 PM
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I'm just surprised towers have ammo. That seems counter-intuitive, but it makes sense with the short time limits I guess.

Either way, the point was we didn't have any creeps, and the guy on the other team is at near full life. And he just rushes in, gets slowed, and then murdered. It was a bad idea.
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  #66  
Old 06-03-2015, 08:04 PM
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I like the towers having ammo, but perhaps I'm just used to it. Also, there's characters that can manipulate ammo. I don't usually choose talents that will do that, unless we really need Calldown: Mule I guess. But some characters, like Zagara or Gazlowe, have inherent skills that can use up ammo inherently. I'm thinking Banelings and, to a lesser degree, turrets.

Sorry I'm talking so much about Heroes and dominating the thread, y'all. I just really, really like it.
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  #67  
Old 06-03-2015, 08:18 PM
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Yeah, one of Sylvana's level 1 passives is having her auto sap two ammo a hit on turrets/etc.
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  #68  
Old 06-03-2015, 08:21 PM
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No. Forts slow your movement and attack speed. Towers just hurt.

P.S. This applies to the dragonshire dragon too. If you push with minions using it you'll last way longer, use fire breath to clear their minions.
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  #69  
Old 06-03-2015, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyblue View Post
Yeah, one of Sylvana's level 1 passives is having her auto sap two ammo a hit on turrets/etc.
Why? Stand next to a tower and spam q, autoattack the other tower. They can't attack.

Use wave or dagger to stun them while getting into place.
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  #70  
Old 06-03-2015, 09:08 PM
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Why? Stand next to a tower and spam q, autoattack the other tower. They can't attack.

Use wave or dagger to stun them while getting into place.
He wasn't saying it was a good talent, he was just confirming it is was an option.
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  #71  
Old 06-03-2015, 09:11 PM
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It was kinda... not good but something you might want to take on Nazeebo, since he actually wears down ammo with zombies. But Sylvanas literally bypasses forts/towers attacks, I don't know why she has that talent.
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  #72  
Old 06-03-2015, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by gahitsu View Post
Also, toxicity has gone way up since we went open beta/release. It's actually a shame you didn't play with your alpha invite, Spoony, because the general mood and environment was like Magical Christmas Land.
I kinda take the minimum playtime approach to HotS, where I let 3 dailies pile up, get as many as I can at once, and wait for it to refill, usually vs. AI because the wait times are so much shorter, but I've been at it for a while, and I NEVER had a jerk on my team, until the very day the open beta started, where some random newbie was completely losing it at me for playing Nova properly, and having something like a 25-2 kill ratio (which WAS too low, the jerk kept going out of his way to lead attacks into me while I was nice and cloaked).

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Well, I literally refuse to play these games without a full team of people I can trust to not be complete shitheads so I guess I will continue to avoid this since no one seemed especially interested in playing with me when I found out I was in the private beta. =\
There's a hermit mode! Play vs. AI and there's a toggle to make all your teammates also AI! So, you can totally work out what you're doing in a judgement free private game.

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People suck at this game!
Have you played anyone like Tassadar yet? Where you throw a shield on someone because they're headed into the fray and they instantly turn around like a spider just landed on them?

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Originally Posted by YangusKhan View Post
Since towers have limited ammo, if you have a character that can rapidly heal, it's not really much of a momentum loss on your end.
I have this serious love-hate thing with playing Sonja. There is a certain point you hit when you're building for regen where your survivability goes way UP when you're running face first at towers surrounded by minions.

Unfortunately, A- I keep forgetting just WHEN you hit that point. B- There's always some concerned ally who tries to kill the giant pile of minions that are acting as your whirlwind-HP-maintaining-salad-bar, you know?
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  #73  
Old 06-03-2015, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destil View Post
It was kinda... not good but something you might want to take on Nazeebo, since he actually wears down ammo with zombies. But Sylvanas literally bypasses forts/towers attacks, I don't know why she has that talent.
Maybe Blizz is taking a page from the WotC/Magic/MaRo book of game design.
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  #74  
Old 06-03-2015, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gahitsu View Post
Sorry I'm talking so much about Heroes and dominating the thread, y'all. I just really, really like it.
Really just not acceptable, especially in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Googleshng View Post
There's a hermit mode! Play vs. AI and there's a toggle to make all your teammates also AI! So, you can totally work out what you're doing in a judgement free private game.
I've played enough of the genre to know how to not die horribly; I've also played enough of the genre to know that the biggest threat to winning the game is the other 4 clownshoes chucklefucks on your team, not the 5 on the other side of the map.
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  #75  
Old 06-03-2015, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destil View Post
No. Forts slow your movement and attack speed. Towers just hurt.
Whoops, that's right. I always forget towers don't do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destil View Post
It was kinda... not good but something you might want to take on Nazeebo, since he actually wears down ammo with zombies. But Sylvanas literally bypasses forts/towers attacks, I don't know why she has that talent.
That seems completely pointless on her, yeah.
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  #76  
Old 06-03-2015, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
Biggest problem with tower-diving: tower projectiles slow your movement.
#notalltowers

I think it's actually just the 3 keeps before the core, and maybe the outer 3 forts as well. Towers themselves don't slow you.


I guess Sylv can use that talent to wear down ammo safely and then run off and wear down some other thing and let minions run at that one? Maybe if you're using possession build and trying for minioahahahahahahahahahaha no I tried, I tried
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  #77  
Old 06-03-2015, 10:31 PM
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Re: the dragon guy map.

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT THIS IS. Jesus, just...wow. What a terrible, terrible idea.
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  #78  
Old 06-03-2015, 10:42 PM
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I don't think it's a terrible idea, and it's very in keeping with the general theme of strategy and teamwork that Heroes pushes. However, it requires more coordinated teamwork than any other map except maybe Sky Temple, which makes it a living hell with a bad pug group.
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  #79  
Old 06-03-2015, 11:28 PM
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I love dragonshire. Second best map!
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  #80  
Old 06-03-2015, 11:31 PM
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And the best tower face-dive is Nazeebo, dropping a wall of zombies in the gate to someone from running.
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  #81  
Old 06-04-2015, 03:37 AM
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Dragonshire's a great map, but I am still perpetually underwhelmed by the actual utility of the dragon.

Meanwhile, I love garden terrors, but I'm kind of bla about seed collection.
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  #82  
Old 06-04-2015, 08:38 AM
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Hey, did I do okay?
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  #83  
Old 06-04-2015, 08:49 AM
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Hey, did I do okay?
I had fun!
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  #84  
Old 06-04-2015, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Googleshng View Post
There's a hermit mode! Play vs. AI and there's a toggle to make all your teammates also AI! So, you can totally work out what you're doing in a judgement free private game.
That's the only way I've played so far! I know I'm terrible at the game and I'd prefer to not ruin 4 other people's fun while I figure out what all these guys do and how to use them. I've even won a couple matches...
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  #85  
Old 06-04-2015, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destil View Post
I love dragonshire. Second best map!
My favorite thing about Dragonshire is that in 90% of games whoever grabs the dragon inevitably ignores the damage bonus to buildings, and starts attacking random groups of minions, or singlehandedly tries to kill the other team.

It's actually one of my favorite maps to play, since I like how the shrines break up the fight for objectives. I'm just let down by how useless on average the dragon is in games I've played.
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  #86  
Old 06-04-2015, 10:11 AM
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Or doesn't realize that the dragon's actually pretty fragile and goes charging off without support.

I actually really like Dragonshire too, when I'm on a team with thumbs. I find the dragon more interesting than the plant or grave golem, and I like the smaller skirmishes the shrines promote.
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  #87  
Old 06-04-2015, 12:52 PM
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Played a few games with Paul last night. Good times!

First game was a lost on the Raven Tribute/Curse map. We had a Murkey pushing bot lane, so we couldn't really contest tributes. But the bigger problem was that I didn't realize we would be unable to fight over any early game tributes and ended up suiciding into the other team a few times. (So did most of our team, but of course they did.) In retrospect, I think I should've just played defensive early on. Delay them collecting tributes as long as possible without dying, and defend their 1st push with curse. Hopefully this would've given Murkey enough time to push down bot lane and set us up for a much better spot late game.

Second game was my first-ever win on Sky Temple. I've played ~60-80 games I think. And I've never. Ever. Won on Sky Temple. Until last night with Paul le Fou. Truly the hero we need, but don't deserve.
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  #88  
Old 06-04-2015, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Egarwaen View Post
Or doesn't realize that the dragon's actually pretty fragile and goes charging off without support.
One of the things I really like about it is how letting an opponent get a dragon early isn't the end of the game by a longshot. I played a game recently where they got it three times in a row and we still had all our forts after the third (barely). It goes down to focused fire very quickly, especially early on.
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  #89  
Old 06-04-2015, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Destil View Post
One of the things I really like about it is how letting an opponent get a dragon early isn't the end of the game by a longshot. I played a game recently where they got it three times in a row and we still had all our forts after the third (barely). It goes down to focused fire very quickly, especially early on.
I think part of that is that it doesn't have the CC capability of the plant, but still requires a player to control it, unlike the golem or webweavers.

So... Is Azmodan just a gigantic HP sponge and damage fountain? I was 1v1 with him in a lane as Valla for our last game last night, and just could not kill him.
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  #90  
Old 06-04-2015, 01:21 PM
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Yep. Asmo just has buckets and buckets of HP. He has no real defensive or mobility abilities (I think there's a few talents to get HP back, I know he can take the healing banner), basically he's a walking sage platform.

His real strength IMHO is that he can push lanes he's not in with his global range summon ability, meaning you both have to be careful about the lane he is in and make sure not to let any of the others go ignored.

Hammer has a deep HP pool for support, too. But a lot of that comes from just how hard her basics can hit and that she's the one hero Vampirc Attack is unquestionably good on.
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