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Old 01-11-2017, 07:11 AM
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Default The PlatinumGames discussion thread

This is *obviously* worth it's on thread, come on guys.
This thread is continuing the discussion from NWIOT, vaguely summarized as: How would you rate Platinum's best known games? Same question for Kamiya's best known games (i.e., including his work at Capcom).

Last edited by dosboot; 01-11-2017 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:23 AM
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My personal ranking of games I've played developed by Platinum/Clover and/or directed by Kamiya or Mikami:

Resident Evil 4
Okami
Bayonetta 2
MGR: Revengeance
Vanquish
Bayonetta
Devil May Cry
Resident Evil
The Evil Within

All of these games are good to some degree.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:35 AM
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Okami is the best Zelda clone that isn't transparently plagiarizing Zelda and that, very often, surpasses Zelda at being Zelda.

Its only real issue is that it's perhaps one chapter too long, and that there really, really, really was no need to fight the Orochi three times. Or to have the Mega Man Boss Room at all (even though the Ninetails and Owl battles are fun as hell). Otherwise, it's inventive, fun, makes very clever use of its gimmick, has oodles of personality, the artwork is unbelievable even today, the music is gorgeous, and it oozes charm.

Never played the Wii version though. I always objected to the concept of trying to emulate a brush with your wrist instead of your fingers. Japanese calligraphy does not have the same paradigm as Wiimote motions!
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:26 AM
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The old running joke is that Okami is the best Zelda clone and two sequels. I had a lot of fun with it, but I don't know if I'd ever play through the whole thing again.

I played RE2 immediately following REmake on the Gamecube, so it felt like a big step down.

Vanquish had a great demo, and I got it for free on PS+, but never actually played it.

RE4 is one of the all time greats.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:09 AM
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Vanquish is amazing. Dedicated pop visor and take drag off cigarette button.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:10 AM
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I've only ever played two Platinum and Platinum-adjacent games, Okami and GOD HAND. I also own RE4 and W101, but I haven't got around to either...

Okami is a very pretty game, but it is not a good game. It's a bloated mess with no sense of pacing nor any when to end. The boss rush at the end is an especially egregious waste of time. I feel like a lot of its reputation is because it went up against Twilight Princess, in that light it's "a better Zelda than Zelda itself!" But the secret is that TP is not a high bar and clearing that is no feat.

GOD HAND, on the other (god) hand, is a masterpiece. The controls are initially kind of strange and it took me some time to adjust, but when they click they click. It's the only successful transition of a beat-'em-up to 3D, and I think the controls are precisely why. Its "irreverent" sense of humour has probably aged terribly, though... I'm kind of reluctant to ever revisit it for that reason.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:13 AM
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The Wonderful 101 might be the best game published this decade, so far.
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zef View Post
Okami is the best Zelda clone that isn't transparently plagiarizing Zelda and that, very often, surpasses Zelda at being Zelda.

Its only real issue is that it's perhaps one chapter too long, and that there really, really, really was no need to fight the Orochi three times. Or to have the Mega Man Boss Room at all (even though the Ninetails and Owl battles are fun as hell). Otherwise, it's inventive, fun, makes very clever use of its gimmick, has oodles of personality, the artwork is unbelievable even today, the music is gorgeous, and it oozes charm.
Wow, I couldn't have wrote it better myself. So I won't.

I'll think about a ranking of games and come back.
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:42 AM
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"Oh, this is too much of a good thing"
- Fools
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:46 AM
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All those Okami sequels make its length even more annoying. It's not like we're never getting any more. We are positively flooded with Okami knockoffs and follow ups.
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascally Badger View Post
All those Okami sequels make its length even more annoying. It's not like we're never getting any more. We are positively flooded with Okami knockoffs and follow ups.
What does that matter? Bloat doesn't retroactively become tight and considered just because there's no (well, one) follow up, and I'd be hard-pressed to believe Okami was deliberately designed to be a "full" and exhausting experience because no sequels were expected.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:12 AM
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I disagree than any of it is really bloat, aside from maybe one Orochi fight to many. The game is long, but every area brings something new and interesting. The game fully explores its mechanics and creates an amazing, lush world.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:14 AM
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Stop trying to make me play Okami! My RPG stack is already miles high

P.S. Bayonetta is the bees knees (1&2)
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:21 AM
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I've tried, oh how I've tried, to love Platinums games, but somehow they almost never manage to flip the "Hey! This is fun!" switch in my brains.

Except for RE4 and Vanquish.

They didn't flip that switch so much as they broke it the hell off!
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:35 AM
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Spoilered opinions because they're reasonably negative

I think the only game that says "Platinum Games" on it that I really liked was Revengeance, and that was flawed as heck. So I don't know. I associate these creators with disappointment. Viewtiful Joe was something I was insanely hyped for when it was in production, pouring (poring?) over every screenshot in Official Nintendo Magazine with stars in my eyes. Then I eventually picked it up and it was this weird, stilted, score-attack-ish thing with super flat levels and a fucked-up difficulty curve.

Bayonetta seems fun-ish, and I bought it twice in order to get the 360 version that runs waaaay better than the PS3 one so I could give it a fair shot. But I just found it boring. All the enemies seemed to take like a million hits, even on the first stage.

Okami is just, it's 100,000,000 hours long and wore out its welcome in maybe three. So I don't know.

Vanquish was just a third person shooter where you could slide around on your knees like you'd just scored the equaliser against Juventus in the cup final. It didn't click with me. I didn't even think it was as good as Binary Domain, and that was a dumb, dumb game as it is. I think I missed something mechanically. I still have my copy so I might throw it on again sometime.

Resi 2 is fucking great, I only played it a couple years ago and it was superb. Really well-designed and fun to play.

The Evil Within however, that was a 10/10 from me. Straight masterpiece. But it's not Platinum or Kamiya as far as I know, so I'm not sure why it's being mentioned.

Korra was pretty average, Transformers too. Star Fox Zero largely polarising, I thought it was dog poo. Mutants in Manhattan was the worst game I played in 2016. I'm not exaggerating, it was absolutely wretched. I don't understand why it was made and released. Licensing shit I guess.

In closing I do really like what I've seen of Nier Automata. That's all from me.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:39 AM
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Reveangance was a better Metal Gear game than Phantom Pain, despite starring a cybernetic ninja who cuts giant robots in half with a sword held in his feet.

Most of their games I've played have been mediocre to bad, however.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
The Evil Within however, that was a 10/10 from me. Straight masterpiece. But it's not Platinum or Kamiya as far as I know, so I'm not sure why it's being mentioned.
It's from Shinji Mikami, who was an important figure in Platinum before his departure (co-founder, director of GOD HAND and Vanquish).
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:43 AM
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Mikami was one of the founders of Platinum along with Kamiya.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:02 PM
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Cool. Thanks!

(I really did like The Evil Within)
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:13 PM
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Vanquish, Bayonetta 1&2, and DMC3 are all fucking amazing.

Resident Evil 4 is one of those timeless masterpieces. I've played the hell out of it on both the Gamecube and the Wii, I just got a copy for my PS4 but I haven't had a chance to sit down with it yet. Soon as I finish or get bored of FF15 tho.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:24 PM
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Platinum does third-person action the best. They don't always explore mechanics as thoroughly as they deserve. They're way too fond of bullshit QTEs. But their games always have interesting mechanics that reward mastery, while still being accessible to those who are merely passable. I can have fun B- and C-ranking my way through a Platinum game while people who are actually good can aim for full S clears, and we're still recognizably playing the same games with the same mechanics.

Where I think Platinum doesn't get as much love as they deserve is their stories. While they've usually got heaping amounts of bullshit, there's usually a solid dramatic character-building layer underneath. Bayonetta's relationships with Cereza and Luka totally break the game's mold. Wonderful 101 spins wonderful touches into every member of its sprawling cast. Okami's Issun makes Navi palatable. Revengeance has Blade Wolf, the single best AI ever.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:34 PM
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I would be interested in an explanation of why Vanquish is amazing that isn't about its style. I don't mean that facetiously, I mean I don't understand what elevates the game over any other cover shooter - I found it mechanically inferior to Gears of War, Binary Domain, even FUSE (which I thought was great and hugely underrated, but that's besides the point). I would love a relatively informed explanation of its mechanics.

I think I'll throw Vanquish on in a couple hours and see if I can get into it.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
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Cool. Thanks!

(I really did like The Evil Within)
Yeah me too. I can talk about the ending for like years. And have!
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
I would be interested in an explanation of why Vanquish is amazing that isn't about its style. I don't mean that facetiously, I mean I don't understand what elevates the game over any other cover shooter - I found it mechanically inferior to Gears of War, Binary Domain, even FUSE (which I thought was great and hugely underrated, but that's besides the point). I would love a relatively informed explanation of its mechanics.

I think I'll throw Vanquish on in a couple hours and see if I can get into it.
I love this game - it's all about speed and risk. Gears (pt1 especially) is very much a slow a deliberate game. There are a few scenarios which require more movement or risky flanking, but generally (or maybe how I play) it's eliminating the locust as safely as possible. Vanquish aggressively encourages you to move your ass all over the place. I haven't played since 2011 - but i remember feeling blown away.
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:07 PM
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Okami's combat outside of use of trying to determine brush puzzle solutions to enemy interactions is kinda bland. It's not bad, but it's simple and while it obviously inspired aspects of Bayonetta it's almost like a comparison between Donkey Kong Jr. and Super Mario Bros in terms of how much better-explored the specifics of combat are. This is fair enough, as the combat is the primary focus of Bayonetta, whereas I'd argue for Okami it's about the idea of inhabiting the old Japanese legends that served as the basis for its story. It's bloated for much the same way that something like Lord of the Rings is bloated: filling the world with as much detail as possible to maintain verisimilitude. That said, I definitely prefer Okami's approach to bloat more than LotR's because while LotR gets bogged down in war and politics, what makes Okami long is that it's packed with places to be: BEHOLD THE MAJESTY OF (artistically-rendered simulated) NATURE cries out the game and we cannot help but listen to it. There aren't many games where visual composition is so emotionally impactful, and whatever blandness the game might contain takes a backseat to the need for the game to unravel itself slowly enough that it's not completely overwhelming.

But yeah it wasn't too far in that I stopped paying attention to any battles that I wasn't required to fight. Maybe within a third or so, think like pretty close to Sei-An city? In any case, while Okamiden isn't Clover/Platinum, the increased focus on brush mechanics in combat was a welcome change since it was more brain-engagey.

====

Quote:
Reveangance was a better Metal Gear game than Phantom Pain, despite starring a cybernetic ninja who cuts giant robots in half with a sword held in his feet.
I'm not sure how the "despite" fits into this comment?

====

I want to enjoy Vanquish but I'm awful at stick-aiming. I imagine that a PC port with mouse controls would probably cause me to spend all my waking hours glued to my laptop
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
Spoilered opinions because they're reasonably negative

Bayonetta seems fun-ish, and I bought it twice in order to get the 360 version that runs waaaay better than the PS3 one so I could give it a fair shot. But I just found it boring. All the enemies seemed to take like a million hits, even on the first stage.
Yes, actually. As much as I love my manic action games, Bayonetta has always felt slightly "off" to me in terms of balance. Enemies do have a lot of health and it's because the game wants you to use Wicked Weave attacks (the ones where she uses her hair to make a giant fist/leg and hit things). If you aren't using those then stuff just takes forever and you probably don't know why. This is pretty stark contrast to DMC where you can hit stuff with combos and they will reasonably die quickly enough.

EDIT: To go further here: the reason this is a "problem" is because the games have a charge-delay mechanic where you can hold onto your combo while also dodging an attack. I think you have to hold down the button while you're dodging something. I never got the hang of it. But the point is, if you get hit out of your combo or don't use this combo-delay mechanic, then you aren't landing the full combo and hence the full Wicked Weave attack, making things take longer to kill.
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:29 PM
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Oh, right, Starfox Zero, forgot they made that.

They're responsible for three games I love unconditionally.
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:29 PM
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Many Platinum games have an "adjustment" period before they click and become fun, and that point never comes for some people. They also tend to start a bit... slower than they should - not introducing some of their more interesting mechanics until later on, sometimes much later on. (I.E. Revengeance doesn't give you Zandatsu until after the first mission, Wonderful 101 trickle-feeds new morphs, etc.)

They also, bizarrely, often hide crucial mechanics in the in-game store behind odd names - Revengeance hides dodge in the store as "Offensive Defense" and Wonderful 101 hides block and dodge as "Unite Guts" and "Unite Spring" respectively - which doesn't help people that don't know what those moves do or why they should buy them.
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:38 PM
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Bayonetta really took a long time to properly grasp for me, but once it did, holy fuck

Biggest thing killing the game for me was the way it gates away moves and weapons. If I had more of them from the start the game would be more interesting -- everything's way more fun on replay for that reason.
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:58 PM
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For me, what I really like about Platinum's output is they have a rock solid grasp on the core fundamentals of how to make nice satisfying gameplay that encourages you to focus on improving your performance and feeling increasingly cool doing so. That isn't necessarily a huge accomplishment or all you need to really knock a game out of the park, but there is a very consistent baseline anything they make builds from which on its own is enough to ensure I will enjoy playing a game.

Other developers of similar age and clout (with the exception of a lot of Nintendo's) don't tend to have that. Like for instance, people are really big on From these days, for the Souls games and their sensibilities, but they also made 3D Dot Game Heroes which is... kind of a festering pile of garbage where combat is literally a joke. Or look at any number of sequels to really satisfying games that just totally lose the fundamentals.

With Platinum, if you strip things down to just the basic core skeleton you tend to see in all their stuff, you... literally get P.N. 03. It's this weird stiff stark incredibly minimalist experience but, hey, there's this really solid core of feeling out a rhythm to kill stuff stylishly and dodging everything that could hurt you, plus little bonus modes to practice those skills in that mix it up. It's not all that impressive a game, but it's fun, and everything else they do incorporates the basics from it to guarantee an experience of "at least as fun as P.N. 03."
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