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  #1021  
Old 06-17-2017, 11:58 AM
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IDW is getting a bad case of snack envy. I'm still not sold in their shared HasBro' Universe and their grim dark approach to most titles (MASK as a hunting unit against Cybertronian comes to mind)

Their Transformers comics are so good, though, partly because unlike the other Big Boys they don't care as much about keeping a status quo. Megatron switching sides and Starscream getting everything he wished for have been amazing plot generators and those are only two of several plates the writers keep spinning.
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  #1022  
Old 06-17-2017, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
I don't keep up 100% with comic stuff. But what I gather is that Marvel has done a much better job going forward into the 21st century with things like representation and diversity
At least with LGBTQ characters, this is pretty much exactly the opposite of the case. Neither are amazing, but DC is much better.

The new Iceman book is maybe a step forward, but I don't know much about it.
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  #1023  
Old 06-17-2017, 04:36 PM
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First issue wasn't as interesting as I'd like. Second issue... comes out on Wednesday.

Anyway, was DC not doing better than Marvel two years ago? How badly is Marvel doing now?
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  #1024  
Old 06-17-2017, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by NavelsAreNeat View Post
I've never been into DC and am just getting back into comics. I'm reading this thread from the beginning and I have: a question.
Does this broad one-page-of-the-forum wide consensus still hold? (I know not everyone on that page agreed! I'm sure you did not) Was Marvel getting its ass kicked in terms of sales back then or is that more of a recent thing?

DC comics. What's up with that?

Thank you for your time and patience.
The cycle has turned the other way for now, with DC putting out actually mature (read Omega Men and The Flintstones) and fun books (Batman just did a crossover with Swamp Thing titled "The Brave and The Mold") while Marvel keeps tripping itself. In a year or so it will likely flip back.

As long as Dan Didio has a say in things DC will be in danger of falling back on the overwrought grittiness that he seems to love as an editorial direction See The New 52 and Countdown, or better yet don't.
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  #1025  
Old 06-17-2017, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by estragon View Post
At least with LGBTQ characters, this is pretty much exactly the opposite of the case. Neither are amazing, but DC is much better.

The new Iceman book is maybe a step forward, but I don't know much about it.
I'm glad to hear this. I've been out of the loop for a while in this regard.
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  #1026  
Old 06-17-2017, 06:56 PM
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Here's an interesting take.

Via Polygon

The DCEU has a problem ó everybody likes Wonder Woman

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That has more to do with theme than it does with any specific character. Wonder Woman is optimistic. Gal Godotís Diana wants to be a hero. She leaves Themyscira to be a hero, and while her faith is tested, her resolve ultimately holds. She climbs out of the trenches in WWI because there are human lives at stake and sheís going to protect them. Hers is a movie about a superhero making the choice to be a superhero, without any expectation of praise or reward.

Thatís more or less the elevator pitch for superheroes as a concept, but itís strangely at odds with everything weíve seen from the DCEU thus far. Prior to Wonder Woman, DCís output included two grim deconstructions of Superman and a third film about supervillains. All three have been skeptical of altruism as a concept, as if the most implausible thing about superhero movies is the heroís willingness to help other people.
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  #1027  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:17 AM
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It's an interesting take, but it fails to recognise that of the three prior DC movies, (a) two were by Zack Snyder, and if you expected anything else you were foolish, and (b) one was freaking SUICIDE SQUAD and honestly was far less dark / more hopeful and optimistic than the comic version. Something tells me that James Wan isn't going to turn out a Snyderesque Aquaman given that the last time someone gave him a big budget, we got Furious 7.

(Mind you, 80s Suicide Squad might've been the best book DC published in that era. That vs. Titans vs. Swamp Thing is a very interesting discussion.)

Quote:
Anyway, was DC not doing better than Marvel two years ago? How badly is Marvel doing now?
Marvel's sort of stabilized over the past couple of months, but they had a spectacularly bad 2016 (by their standards; they still sold more books than anyone, but they had a steep, steep decline). Their more recent problems are more that the progressive Tumblr-based audience they'd so carefully cultivated over the last couple of years turned against them, but that's more of a PR issue than anything of significance.

I don't know if Marvel's overall line was any better two years ago, but DC's was demonstratably a LOT worse. I think we're almost exactly two years removed from the disastrous "Convergence" event that they published as cover while they moved offices from NY to LA, which was probably the low point. They've done a lot of retrenching since then, and it's paid off in a much-improved overall line.

And as long as IDW keeps publishing Hama's Real American Hero, they can have Bruce Sato decapitate Matt Trakker by pulling him apart with Lifter for all I care. The entire company is basically a vehicle for publishing Larry Hama stories (and whatever More than Meets the Eye turned into) as far as I'm concerned.
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  #1028  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:27 AM
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I think Marvel's been bleeding talent and they need to figure that out. A lot of their best, or at least most popular writers from the last decade like Brubaker, Fraction, Gillen, DeConnick, and Remender have all left super hero books.
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  #1029  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:32 AM
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Yeah, Marvel doesn't seem to have anything to throw at creators who want to go elsewhere at the moment. DC always has Vertigo or whatever deals they're throwing at Snyder (he implied this week that there's some new format they're allowing him to play around with before anyone else).

Part of Marvel's PR problem is that they talked quite a bit of shit about artists not mattering anymore. Which while not directly impacting writers, means that writers who aren't part of the inner circle like Bendis or Slott are always going to be looking over their proverbial shoulders for the moment that Marvel decides they don't matter either.
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  #1030  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:06 PM
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To add to the cyclical nature of these things, one thing to remember when considering Marvel's comicbook output is that the movie-side of Marvel is basically cannibalizing and destroying its comic side. Something that likely won't change anytime in the near future. This is manifesting in multiple ways, namely:

1) The most enduring and historically popular Marvel comics are being systematically undermined or straight up killed off. The X-Men, Spiderman, and anything else that the movie rights Disney doesn't control are taking a backseat to The Avengers. Hell, Fantastic Four is basically dead. There's a reason why the rights to those characters/franchises got sold in the late 90s and not the Avengers, because those are their most interesting properties and the Avengers is pretty boring.

2) When Disney bought out Star Wars, Marvel shifted a LOT of their editorial focus onto making a buttload of Star Wars comics, not something you'd think of traditionally as "Marvel Comics". IIRC, Star Wars comics are overwhelmingly the best selling comics by Marvel atm.

DC similarly exerts pressure on its comics side to promote whatever movie-thing is going to be happening next, but it's rarely at the expense of its most popular comics doesn't undermine them by doing so. It's the Dial H's and Legion Losts that get the axe over at DC.
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  #1031  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
2) When Disney bought out Star Wars, Marvel shifted a LOT of their editorial focus onto making a buttload of Star Wars comics, not something you'd think of traditionally as "Marvel Comics". IIRC, Star Wars comics are overwhelmingly the best selling comics by Marvel atm.
Marvel published over 100 issues of Star Wars comics between '77 and '86. They tried to get the license back from Dark Horse during the 90s, too.

Comics aren't dying. More people care about superheroes than ever before. It's a goddamn golden age for that stuff. I think if more people actually cared about "comics" (as an actual medium), this wouldn't really be a topic of discussion because those people would be supporting artists rather than lamenting what they see as a lost opportunity to give their support to multimillion dollar corporate franchises.

As someone who doesn't read any current hero stuff, I feel fine about it. The popularity of the hero flicks, their respective comic book lines be damned, really does seem to have broadened the popular interest in comics. There's a wider variety of stuff available than ever! It's great!
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  #1032  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:00 PM
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GI Joe and Transformers both outdid Star Wars at Marvel (several times over in Joe's case) but that doesn't make them Marvel Books.

Heck, Transformers even got the traditional fourth issue Spider Man guest appearance! Ain't nothing more Marvel than that.
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  #1033  
Old 06-20-2017, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
1) The most enduring and historically popular Marvel comics are being systematically undermined or straight up killed off. The X-Men, Spiderman, and anything else that the movie rights Disney doesn't control are taking a backseat to The Avengers. Hell, Fantastic Four is basically dead.
I'm not sure what you mean because there are 6 current Avengers books (including Champions and Ultimates) to 10 current/upcoming X books and 10 current/upcoming Spider books. Fantastic Four is dead because nobody ever bought it.

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Comics aren't dying.
Eh they kinda are
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  #1034  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ghosttaster View Post
Comics aren't dying. More people care about superheroes than ever before.
Those are two unrelated thoughts-- the massive success of the Marvel movies is not affecting periodical or trade sales as far as anyone can tell. Marvel sales are slumping so hard they need to goose their circulation numbers by literally shipping retailers more copies than they paid for, and DC has had to cancel and relaunch their entire line TWICE this decade to keep the numbers up-- a strategy that Marvel has been using for years which seems to have hollowed out their readership. See "Colin Spacetwinks" (yes, really) or Comics Beat's analyses for details.

Now, none of those figures include digital sales, because no one releases those figures, but even if exactly as many people buy digital as do physical, those still aren't blockbuster numbers. And Marvel/DC outsell every other publisher!

(in the direct market, in periodicals, but even with caveats, Fantagraphics et al ain't selling millions either)

Quote:
As someone who doesn't read any current hero stuff, I feel fine about it. The popularity of the hero flicks, their respective comic book lines be damned, really does seem to have broadened the popular interest in comics. There's a wider variety of stuff available than ever! It's great!
Available? Hell yes, and I love it. But selling, and selling sustainably? Unless you're talking about Raina Telgemeier, citation needed.

Last edited by Joe McGuffin; 06-20-2017 at 08:44 AM.
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  #1035  
Old 06-21-2017, 02:41 PM
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RESET THE CLOCK.

Via the Mary Sue

DC Has No Idea What We Love About Wonder Woman, Introduces New Comic Arc About Dianaís Brother
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  #1036  
Old 06-22-2017, 01:23 PM
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As Val D'Orazio pointed out over a decade ago, DC corporate culture's attitude towards women is only slightly better than Son of Sam's.
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  #1037  
Old 06-22-2017, 01:33 PM
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Yeah, because introducing what's transparently a long-lost-relative-who-turns-out-to-be-a-bad-guy character* makes the book about that character. My god, it's hard to imagine the stupidity that is required to get to that line of thinking. By that logic, WW should only ever fight female villains.

I'd be more worried that it's James Robinson on writing duties, since his work has been... mixed... since he came back from whatever Hot-Wheels-movie-writing exile he was on post-Starman.

* - Assuming, here, but that's DC's go-to plot point.
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  #1038  
Old 06-22-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
Yeah, because introducing what's transparently a long-lost-relative-who-turns-out-to-be-a-bad-guy character* makes the book about that character. My god, it's hard to imagine the stupidity that is required to get to that line of thinking. By that logic, WW should only ever fight female villains.
That's an idea that could be really cool, imo. Like my little pony, but with a magic lasso.
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  #1039  
Old 06-22-2017, 02:03 PM
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I really don't see what the problem is here. They aren't replacing Diana, its a story arc with an already announced end. Having read fiction before, I am going to guess that things aren't quite what they seem. I see not being on board with James Robinson writing, since his output is either amazing (Starman) or miserable (Cry for Justice) and rarely fall between the two extremes. I still wish they'd let Marguerite Bennett have a go at the title, but she did get Batwoman since she was rumored to be writing Wonder Woman and might have been too busy.

edit - Sven got in there before me and more forcefully
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  #1040  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:27 AM
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Yeah, there isn't really a problem here at all. It's just a follow up on the entire N52 Wonder Woman saga where Themyscira and its society got a revamp. Particularly, it's following up on a story line from not too long ago where they found, and attempted to reconciliation with, the exiled and persecuted tribe of Themyscira's men.
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  #1041  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
That's an idea that could be really cool, imo. Like my little pony, but with a magic lasso.
I think her Rogues should be majority-female (and they pretty much are, outside of Ares and Dr. Psycho), but, shit, if someone wants to tell a Wonder Woman vs Lex Luthor story they should be able to do so (as opposed creating a female version of Lex like Rucka did during his first run with Veronica Cale).

But then I'm a big proponent of mixing up villains generally. I want to see WW vs Joker / Grodd / Sinestro for big stories, just like I want to see Flash vs Cheetah and always love it when Batman gets stuck dealing a Superman villain. That's the fun of having a shared universe, and it's why Spider-Man vs Juggernaut is so well-remembered. It's something that was lost when stories shifted to longer arcs - you no longer had villains moving from book to book because there were less one-off stories being told.

(I am correct that the reason Robinson stopped writing comics for a while was because he scripted a bunch of DTV kids' movies, right?)
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  #1042  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
I think her Rogues should be majority-female (and they pretty much are, outside of Ares and Dr. Psycho), but, shit, if someone wants to tell a Wonder Woman vs Lex Luthor story they should be able to do so (as opposed creating a female version of Lex like Rucka did during his first run with Veronica Cale).
Did you happen to read Rucka's recent WW run? Could you guess at who made a return in a big enough way to occasionally overshadow the book's star?
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  #1043  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:53 AM
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It's in the queue (I picked up a few of the past issues but was skipping the modern-day stuff until Rucka was finished because I know from experience that his runs read better in full). But I knew he was bringing her back.

Aaaand this gives me the opportunity to link to one of my favourite WW covers:

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  #1044  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:21 AM
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Honestly, I think Cale is what has kept me from really liking either of Rucka's WW runs. I like Rucka, but I think WW has been some of his weakest work. His take on Diana always truck me as kind of bland, and his big addition was a female Lex Luthor that I had no interest in. His recent run did some interesting things, but it all comes back to Veronica Cale and I just don't care.
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  #1045  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:24 AM
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Her original conception was basically a personification of online critiques of Wonder Woman, which I always liked since it gave her an angle that Lex didn't have (although she wound up doing essentially the same type of thing).

More than anything, WW has SUCH a massive blank space in terms of decent villains that I'll applaud anyone who tries to fill that gap. Like, she's not Martian Manhunter bad amongst the top-tier JLA members, but she's really close.
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  #1046  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:42 AM
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Dr. Psycho, Cheetah and ... Giganta? Has there been a WW Giganta story in the last 20 years? Circe, I guess, but when was the last time she was used? There is Silver Swan, but if I am being honest I am still angry about how Vanessa Kapatelis, a side character from Perez's run, got turned into that villain a decade later and even though Simone fixed it during her segment of WW 600 and that the character likely doesn't exist in modern continuity I'd expect her to get forced into it again, a choice that would upset me and likely only me. (why yes, I did go read every damn issue of Post-Crisis WW a few years ago and now have strong opinions)

WW's got a lot a villains that never made it out of the Silver Age and could have done with some some evolutionary steps to become modern villains but thanks to long disuse now need full reimaginings. Which is something Rucka admittedly has done, making Dr. Cyber a hologram and Poison some kind of mercenary team.
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  #1047  
Old 06-23-2017, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven View Post
if someone wants to tell a Wonder Woman vs Lex Luthor story they should be able to do
I was going to say this was dumb but then I realized you could do an entire thing where WW fights LL as the avatar of patriarchal capitalism and it was really I who was dumb.
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  #1048  
Old 06-23-2017, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
I was going to say this was dumb but then I realized you could do an entire thing where WW fights LL as the avatar of patriarchal capitalism and it was really I who was dumb.
You could also run it as a science vs. myth contrast, playing off Lex's hatred of what he perceives to be false idols like Superman. There's a lot of ways to run it, and I expect it'd turn out just as well as when they temporarily moved Luthor into Batman's orbit after No Man's Land (although that was fun more because of the stuff with Bruce and Lex)
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  #1049  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:04 PM
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Batman/Luthor feels like such a weird pairing on account of they are literally the same guy with different methods.
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  #1050  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:23 PM
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But that sounds like a solid hook for a story itself. I think Morrison played with that idea in JLA.
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