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  #5821  
Old 03-20-2017, 01:40 PM
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There were a few fights that were actually excellent. I especially enjoyed the one of WHITEBOY vs DRUNKO THE DRUNK.

But a LOT of them just felt... off. You got your normal not-great-movie-fight problems like everyone moving like weirdly slow and what are supposed to be the big hits lacking any sort of impact. But then you got stuff that's truly strange, like, I shit you not, fucking splitscreen. Like what the fuck? Splitscreen is so you can show both people on a phone conversation at once, not for showing 2 people doing different fake attacks to 2 other people 20 feet from eachother. What were they thinking?
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  #5822  
Old 03-20-2017, 01:44 PM
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What were they thinking?
Wonder if they saw the last Raiden/Vamp pas de deux from Metal Gear Solid 4 and thought it was a good idea.
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  #5823  
Old 03-20-2017, 01:50 PM
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I'm not saying that you can't find ways to make that sort of thing work. Like showing two angles of a fight could be cool. Showing two separate fights synching up could work as well. There are ways to do this!

But just suddenly cutting the screen in half for 2 seconds to show DOJO LADY and VISITOR GUY fighting 2 randos during a group rando fight is not it.
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  #5824  
Old 03-20-2017, 02:57 PM
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Iron Fist is some pretty dire viewing but as the wise screams of the Skeleman point out it has some nice things like Drunk Fu Manchester Man, And the Game of Death style Gauntlet of dudes. Basically "Lets crib directly from Kung Fu movies" is a winning strategy for winning. But they BLEW IT ALL UP and didnt have any Training Montages which is total garbage. Especially because Danny is an insufferably pushy and entitled self righteous billionaire in addition to being the magical chosen one of prophecy and destiny. A training montage would have been nice to give the impression that he had actually worked toward something. Maybe even a montage of learning how to be a business person or even just learning how to drive?

Everything else is up in the air though because the fevered effect of "is...is this better or just welcome relief from the nonstop torrent of stupid shut up shutupshutupshutyourmouth that is Danny Rand."

Stray thought: My initial read of Danny's eastern wisdom nonsense felt like Hansel from Zoolander? Then Bakuto shows up and Just goes full Zoolander voice? Its all very offputting because I guess its supposed to sound serious.

Its probably a bad sign if you can gauge likeability of characters based on how often they will tell Danny Rand, the protagonist how stupid he is being. But this metric lets us watch Ward, the horrible child who cheats at monopoly go on a magical character arc to being the most sympathetic character for some reason. That Reason is poor Ward is just endlessly beset by people rising from the dead to tell him what to do

Also Iron Fist stands unique among the marvel shows in that... its Back half is probably better than its first five episodes? At no point does it become good, but it finds Danny something to do besides going into womens houses and ignoring them when they ask him to leave.

This show is a headache because it has a lot of things wrong with it, and the initial casting complaint is kind of minor but also emblematic of how tone deaf the whole thing feels?
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  #5825  
Old 03-20-2017, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAT View Post
I'm not saying that you can't find ways to make that sort of thing work. Like showing two angles of a fight could be cool. Showing two separate fights synching up could work as well. There are ways to do this!

But just suddenly cutting the screen in half for 2 seconds to show DOJO LADY and VISITOR GUY fighting 2 randos during a group rando fight is not it.
Ang Lee's Hulk
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  #5826  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:02 PM
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I've been watching Star Trek Voyager on the Netflix and I'm at the end of Season 2 so after watching episodes like 'Threshold' and 'Tuvix' I thought "Y'know what? Everyone's ragging on Iron Fist so let's watch a different black sheep fourth entry!" So now I'm watching this against all advisement.

First episode in so far and while it's not offensive, it's pretty hilarious for the wrong reasons. After watching Danny try barging into his old stomping grounds and reconnecting with acquaintances and making new friends and being super trustring all I can think of is



Seriously, at the end of the first episode he gets into a predicament the likes of which his contemporaries might be able to put off until, like, episode 6 or 7.

Iron Fist! Hero! The Fourth Defender! Incapacitated in Episode 1!
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  #5827  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther, an Otter View Post
Its probably a bad sign if you can gauge likeability of characters based on how often they will tell Danny Rand, the protagonist how stupid he is being. But this metric lets us watch Ward, the horrible child who cheats at monopoly go on a magical character arc to being the most sympathetic character for some reason. That Reason is poor Ward is just endlessly beset by people rising from the dead to tell him what to do
I had a big huge thing almost completely written out and then Chrome ate it and I"m not gonna re-write it. Maybe tomorrow.

Essentially it was 1000 words to the effect of "It's fucking weird that STOCK CHARACTER 007: ASSHOLE YOUNG CEO ends up being the most interesting and sympathetic character".
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  #5828  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAT View Post
"It's fucking weird that STOCK CHARACTER 007: ASSHOLE YOUNG CEO ends up being the most interesting and sympathetic character".
I agree entirely. Ward's character arc is really the only one I want to see more of at this point.

What did I think of the series overall? Well, it's a pointless slog at first, but like Gunther said, it actually picks up for the last five episodes. If they had started there, with Danny hunting The Hand with his girlfriend because they're infiltrating his company, it would have been a fun, action-packed miniseries.

It also would have improved the character of Danny Rand. The scriptwriters obviously thought that introducing him as a humble vagrant orphan would make him easier to like, but instead he only comes across as blunt and ignorant. But if you start watching at Episode 8, he feels more like a protagonist - he's got a goal and a plan, at least. (Even if it is a bad plan.)
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  #5829  
Old 03-20-2017, 07:22 PM
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Man, now I just had a thought for this show: what if they simply started from when they were all kids and made episode 1 that, ending with the plane crash and finally older Rand coming back to the company building? There's already a smattering of scenes from kid-Ward being terrible and stuff like that, so unless they stop doing having those scenes then I like my idea better as a starting point.
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  #5830  
Old 03-20-2017, 07:52 PM
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Should I skip to episode 8?
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  #5831  
Old 03-20-2017, 09:06 PM
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The show does get better as it goes along, as the inherent goofiness starts to sneak through the dour haze that the show wants to be. Episode 11 has Colleen and Danny standing on a rooftop spouting absurd dialogue at each other about how they their allegiances conflict. I think it is the only time the show has genuinely made me smile.

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Should I skip to episode 8?
Why would you skip it if you are watching the rest of the series? It has the best fight through the first 11 episodes.
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  #5832  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:12 AM
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Straight up fell asleep during episode 2 just to wake up to see Fisto punch hard for the first time. I guess I didn't miss much.
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  #5833  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:09 PM
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Fuck SPOILER POPS and SPOILER WARNINGS if you still want to watch this show for some unthinkable reason just... scroll quickly or something.

Okay so take 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther, an Otter View Post
They BLEW IT ALL UP and didnt have any Training Montages which is total garbage. Especially because Danny is an insufferably pushy and entitled self righteous billionaire in addition to being the magical chosen one of prophecy and destiny. A training montage would have been nice to give the impression that he had actually worked toward something. Maybe even a montage of learning how to be a business person or even just learning how to drive?
If we had spent ANY TIME AT ALL in Danny Boi's magic monastary (in another dimension) well that would have been just great. Spoiler alert. It never fucking happens. At all. Oh sure he TALKS about how tough it was, how hard he fought to overcome his outsider status, we get occasional ancedotes of him goofing off with the other kids and getting into the KUNG FU versions of teenage shenanigans, all of which could have totally made for entertaining TV, but they never SHOW us any of it. I mean, yeah I know these things are made on a budget compared to stuff like Dr Strange or Civil war, But couldn't they have asked for even a LITTLE bit of that Disney Money?

Without this, we never get to see Danny Grow into this "Iron Fist" dude that everyone seems to think is so important. We just see Danny being Danny. And Danny is... well... bad.
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Originally Posted by Gunther, an Otter View Post
Everything else is up in the air though because the fevered effect of "is...is this better or just welcome relief from the nonstop torrent of stupid shut up shutupshutupshutyourmouth that is Danny Rand."
Did anyone know that one guy in college? You know the one. The guy who's parents had enough money to send him on that whole "semester traveling across Asia" thing, and he came back thinking he was a fucking guru, spouting half-remembered quotes from Confucius and trying to get laid by offering to "teach" girls "yoga". Start with that as your base. Add to that a tendency towards temper tantrums and whining when things don't go his way. Add to that a big old dose of plain old bad writing where the character jumps from serene to goofy to traumatized to pompus to stoic to whiny. Then add some MORE bad writing in the form of "maniac pixie dream whiteboy" variety where they're paradoxically so perfect and wonderful even as they're being just the worst.

That's Danny. The "hero" of the show.

I don't THINK they wanted us to hate Danny but it's kinda hard NOT to hate a guy who walks into someone else's Martial arts class, scream at the students for daring to have a good time and then kneecap one of em when they're rightfully like "wtf man". That's not "stern respect for the dojo" that's just being a fucking asshole. You could argue that he's somewhat less terrible by the end, but he never actually becomes likable or interesting. This is supposed to be a Kung Fu Adventure! So why is so much of it spent watching this twit who brags about how fucking enlightened he is debate fake contract law to become a billionaire again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther, an Otter View Post
Its probably a bad sign if you can gauge likeability of characters based on how often they will tell Danny Rand, the protagonist how stupid he is being. But this metric lets us watch Ward, the horrible child who cheats at monopoly go on a magical character arc to being the most sympathetic character for some reason. That Reason is poor Ward is just endlessly beset by people rising from the dead to tell him what to do
As Gunther said, it's ambiguous as to what parts of the show are actually good and which parts just seem good because of just how bad everything surrounds them is. But I think most people who tough it out through this garbage will zero in on two characters that sort of sucked less than everything else: Claire and Ward.

I assume anyone who watches this already knows Clair. She's the nurse lady who shows up in literally every other Marvel Netflix shows, sorta like what Agent Coulson did way back in the first days of this whole mess. She's a breath of fresh air in this one because she's the only one who's apparently aware of the fact that Danny is just terrible, and never misses an opportunity to tell him it. On one hand thank GOD someone is saying what the audience is thinking. On the other hand, how dire has shit gotten when the show's only way of building goodwill is to turn to the camera and say "HOW LAME AND DUMB AMD I RIGHT GUYS" before diving right back into the pit of lame dumbness. Claire is awesome, but she was already awesome, in FOUR other seasons of marvel Netflix shows. Her suddenly going from non-combatant voice of reason to bull-headed superheroes to ignored voice of reason getting swept up fighting ninjas feels almost like they shoehorned something that we all recognized as good, in order to salvage the trainwreck of literally everything else. I'm totally down with her finally getting into the thick of it, I just wish that her big moment to transition from medic to fighter wasn't this.

And then there's Ward, who we don't already know from 4 other far better seasons of TV. Ward hits literally every single check box for EVIL CORPORATE EXECUTIVE on the movie stock villain list. It's like he modeled his entire life off the business card scene in American Psycho. Fitted suits, slicked back hair, monologues about making money, bored monotone, prescription drugs, the works. And then we quickly flash back to teenage him cheating at monopoly and picking on kid 5 years younger than him just to seal the deal. We've seen Ward countless times in other shows and movies, we recognize him immediately, and we all just start waiting for the magical moment where the heroes will save the rec center and his Lamborghini gets T-boned by a manure truck.

And then he becomes the best part of the show, to the point where I'd call him the actual hero.

One thing that dawned on me while I was putting together a Storify of my awful unreadable tweetstorm was that both Ward and Danny sort of have to live double lives: the public one as part of GENERIC COMIC BOOK ULTRACORP, and the secret one where they gotta deal with BAD GUYS. But we never see Danny actually suffer under that supposed weight. He never really deals with any of his responsibilities as BILLIONAIRE SHAREHOLDER, and he has an easy answer to all NINJA BADGUY problems with punching. He wins most of his fights, and the one time he "loses" on a technicality, he literally throws a fucking temper tantrum about it while walking away.

Ward on the other hand, does nothing BUT suffer for his double life. He spends all his time GENERIC COMIC BOOK ULTRACORP scrambling to clean up Danny's messes, and in the private one filled with BAD GUYS, punching isn't an option, only compromising with the various badguys to try and keep the people he cares about alive. And it kicks the shit out of him.

Danny's front and Center 90% of the show, but we don't really ever get to see who he was, or watch him change or... anything really. He's just kind of this insufferable white savior dweeb from start to end. But with Ward we see who he is at the start, find out WHY he is that way, watch him struggle with his flaws, try to do the right thing in spite of himself, and eventually come out on the other end a changed man.

Is he enough to save the show? No. It still sucks. But he's definitely the only character I was actually invested in by the end. So props to ya Ward. Hopefully you can stick around and make Danny's Inevitable part in the Defenders a little less insufferable.



Aw, I love you too, buddy.
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  #5834  
Old 03-21-2017, 05:17 PM
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Wow, I think this is worse than anything the people behind the GitS movie have said in response to whitewashing:




How did we go from JJ to Luke Cage to this?

More here
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  #5835  
Old 03-21-2017, 05:26 PM
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Roy Thomas is a very old man. He also had nothing to do with the show.

He says he wasn't trying to make any kind of statement when he made Iron Fist a white guy; "He was just a man," he says. That's probably true. The piece he's missing is why it's bad that white men are the default form of protagonists.
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  #5836  
Old Yesterday, 08:57 AM
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Iron Fist was mediocre but it did get better as it went on.

Theory for Defenders: Sigourney Weaver is playing Danny Rand's mom.
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  #5837  
Old Yesterday, 09:35 AM
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I choose to believe his mom got abducted by Aliens, instead of blown away by crazy strong wind.

Yes.

This makes perfect sense to me.
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  #5838  
Old Yesterday, 11:53 AM
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For some fucking reason this show refuses to stop rattling around in my brain, so I'm going to write more about how all of the characters are kind of bad & don't work in a mad attempt to exorcise these demons. I'll start with GOOD GUYS GUYS WHO ARE NOT OBVIOUSLY ANTAGONISTS.

So at the start of the show, best character Ward is the OBVIOUSLY BAD HALF of a brother-sister duo. The OBVIOUSLY GOOD HALF is JOY, referred to in my tweetstorm as SISTER DOUCHEFACE to match BROTHER DOUCHEFACE (Ward) and FATHER DOUCHEFACE (uuuugggghhhhhhghghgh). You get the impression that she's supposed to be like the mirror version of Ward, going from good to bad as he goes from bad to good, but her characterization is such a fucking mess you'd never know it from just watching. She ping pongs between GOOD GUY ACTIONS and BAD GUY ACTIONS so constantly and so pointlessly that we never really get any idea of who the fuck she's supposed to be. She goes directly from crying tears of joy about how the crazy Krate hobo that's been bothering them really is Danny, to trying to force Danny to sign a contract claiming he's totally not Danny. One moment she's happily bribing business prospect with, I shit you not, a stolen human liver and the next she's feeling really bad about how the company she just literally harvested organs for has a factory that might be bad for people's health.

There's no gradual change of thought or fall into darkness or rationalization for her actions or anything. She just sorta does things. A long chain of actions all taken for no discernible reason until the show just ends.

And on top of that she's really fucking bad at figuring out that her obviously evil™ (undead) dad is, in fact, not good. I mean it was REALLY obvious from the moment they first met. And once that whole train has started-
FATHER DOUCHEFACE: U CAN TRUST ME.
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: OK I TRUST U.
FATHER DOUCHEFACE: MUAHAHAHA ALL ACCORDING TO MY EVIL PLANS!
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: WAT?
FATHER DOUCHEFACE: NUTHIN
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: DAD, ARE YOU, UH, EVIL?
FATHER DOUCHEFACE: NO! I'M GOOD
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: YOU SURE?
FATHER DOUCHEFACE: THAT WAS A GOOD GUY LAUGH.

It just keeps going
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: HEY DAD YOU *SURE* YOU'RE NOT EVIL
FATHER DOUCHEFACE: YEAH I'M TOTALLY GOOD.
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: OK.
FATHER DOUCHEFACE: *SETS BOX OF PUPPIES ON FIRE*

And going
SON DOUCHEFACE: SO SIS. HERE'S THE THING. DAD'S EVIL.
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: NO HE'S GOOD.
FATHER DOUCHEFACE: YEAH I'M LIKE, SUPER GOOD.
SON DOUCHEFACE: ARE YOU KIDDING ME. HE'S SO OBVIOUSLY EVIL
FATHER DOUCHEFACE: *EATS AN ADORABLE KITTEN*
SON DOUCHEFACE: SEE?
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: THAT KITTEN WAS PROBABLY BAD.
SON DOUCHEFACE: OH MY GOD.

And going
BAKUTO: HEY WHAT'S UP DOUCHEFACES!
SON DOUCHEFACE: OH GREAT.
BAKUTO: LET ME INTRODUCE MYSELF. I'M BAKUTO. I'M EVIL! MORE EVIL THAN YOUR EVIL DAD!
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE CUZ MY DAD'S GOOD.
FATHER DOUCHEFACE: *BLOWS UP AN ORPHANAGE*
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: SO GOOD.
BAKUTO: WOW REALLY?
SON DOUCHEFACE: I KNOW RIGHT.

And going
SON DOUCHEFACE: SO YOU KNOW OUR DAD IS EVIL RIGHT?
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: ACTUALLY UR EVIL!
SON DOUCHEFACE: ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: SHUT UP, EVIL!
SON DOUCHEFACE: I LITERALLY WATCHED HIM MUTILATE 2 DEAD BODIES FOR HOURS.
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: WHATEVER, EVIL.
SON DOUCHEFACE: HE MADE ME HIDE THE CORPSES.
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: UR BEING VERY UNFAIR TO DAD

Until fucking finally the thing that makes it all end is this.
SON DOUCHEFACE: HE'S BEING MEAN TO KARATE HOBO
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: OMG! HE REALLY IS EVIL!
SON DOUCHEFACE: WAIT THAT'S THE FACT THAT CONVINCED YOU?
DAUGHTER DOUCHEFACE: I'M SO MAD AT MY EVIL DAD!

That happens at about the halfway point of the last episode. And then 30 minutes later, she meets up with some guy I'll get to later to talk about how they gotta kill Danny SO HARD for... some reason? I couldn't make this shit up if I wanted to.

Let's see, who's next...

Last edited by BEAT; Yesterday at 12:14 PM.
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  #5839  
Old Yesterday, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascally Badger View Post
Why would you skip it if you are watching the rest of the series? It has the best fight through the first 11 episodes.
No, skip to it. Like, skip episodes 2-7.
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  #5840  
Old Yesterday, 01:43 PM
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Detour from Iron Fist talk: I finally watched Doctor Strange and enjoyed it as pure popcorn entertainment. It had barely anything to say about anything but goddamn was that team creative with its set pieces. Just, everything about every fight was great, and even the final boss brought a great twist on how Strange was gonna beat him. Magic is cool and fun.
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