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  #3241  
Old 05-04-2015, 10:37 AM
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I agree that's how it is supposed to read, but the conversation was poorly written enough to cause confusion.
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  #3242  
Old 05-04-2015, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
Thinking there's a misreading of the "monster" line going on here. She's talking about being a heartless assassin who would sacrifice anything for the mission. Not saying anyone who can't have children is a monster (!?).
I think there's a pretty good argument for why that line's in the movie. Like, she was brought up specifically to murder people. They tried to strip her of any human compassion through abusive conditioning, then taking that to the next step by intentionally robbing her of the ability to ever have children of her own on the off chance that it would result in people that she wouldn't be willing to murder. That's all pretty monstrous stuff to do a person! I would think that someone who had gone through that would feel pretty monstrous!

THAT SAID

The way it was presented kinda really sucked at getting that across and it totally did come off as "Not being able to have kids is why I'm a monster" when you're watching it. Which is bad and dumb and out of place and honestly totally offensive. I can see why people would go "wait what the fuck" when they see it, even recognizing all that stuff I just said.

Because seriously what the fuck.

That part could have definitely benefited from a few re-writes, or even just scrapping it entirely. I mean it's not like the entire movie hangs on that one detail or anything.
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  #3243  
Old 05-04-2015, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
I haven't seen Age of Ultron yet, but Vision was closer to Red Tornado (he did show up in the DCAU too, don't worry) in that he sucks and is a robot who is always crying because he's sad that he has no emotions.
Without wanting to SPOIL anything for my beloved friend Octo, Vision in this movie is less "Sadbot" and more "Godbot".
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  #3244  
Old 05-04-2015, 10:53 AM
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Vision might be awesome in this movie, and he might not. I don't know.

But even if he is, he still has fifty years worth of sucking to answer for.
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  #3245  
Old 05-04-2015, 11:08 AM
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The majesty of Baron Strucker was entirely wasted on this movie.
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  #3246  
Old 05-04-2015, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
Vision might be awesome in this movie, and he might not. I don't know.

But even if he is, he still has fifty years worth of sucking to answer for.
The part where Vision cried so many sad robot tears that they short-circuited a squadron of Ultron drones was pretty cool.

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Originally Posted by TheSL View Post
The majesty of Baron Strucker was entirely wasted on this movie.
Yeah, that was one of my problems with it too. I don't know anything about Strucker from the comics, but the end of Winter Soldier did a lot to make him seem menacing and sinister, and as though he knew much more about what's really going on in the MCU at large than our heroes. Turns out he's just a chump who dies offscreen. Oh well.
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  #3247  
Old 05-04-2015, 11:12 AM
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I saw as a comment on how the Red Room made her feel less human. The line might've been off, granted, but there's nothing wrong with showing how a person feels about that sort of thing. That specific condition does make people feel they can't have a normal life.
^^ This sums it up best for me - infertility can come with a huge helping of self-loathing. The line was hella dramatic but something I actually identified with.
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  #3248  
Old 05-04-2015, 12:41 PM
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re: fertilitygate, I think reading "all infertile people are monsters!" from Black Widow's line in that scene requires deliberately choosing the worst faith interpretation possible, and I didn't get anything remotely close to that message in context, nor did anyone I know. This seems like quite the stretch.

As for the movie as a whole, I thought it was a better movie than Avengers 1, but I went back and saw Avengers 1 in theaters once (maybe twice?) again in theaters on opening weekend. I walked out of the theater thinking, man I want to go see that movie again immediately and I did. Whereas I don't feel like rewatching Avengers 2 any time soon.

--------

Unrelated: I'd love to hear a Bongo Bill-caliber overthinking explanation of why Winter Soldier is the bee's knees and why the Thors were so Thorrible. I thought they were all basically the same in quality, and don't remember walking out of any one of them feeling like it was significantly worse than any other.
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  #3249  
Old 05-04-2015, 01:01 PM
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See, I would have been much happier with "Who said anything about kids? I don't want kids, I AM A KILLER what kind of life would they have, etc." in that scene. Same message, same emotions, no gendered violence. And no implication that that desiring children is natural and universal and the only people who would choose to give that up are monsters.
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  #3250  
Old 05-04-2015, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSL View Post
The majesty of Baron Strucker was entirely wasted on this movie.
Zey did ze same to Batroc ze leaper...
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  #3251  
Old 05-04-2015, 01:12 PM
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Remember that short that showed what happened to Ben Kingsleys character after Iron Man 3, where it implied that someone was awfully upset that he was calling himself The Mandarin, implying that there was a real Mandarin somewhere in the MCU?

I like to think that exact situation happened to Batroc as well.
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  #3252  
Old 05-04-2015, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
Remember that short that showed what happened to Ben Kingsleys character after Iron Man 3, where it implied that someone was awfully upset that he was calling himself The Mandarin, implying that there was a real Mandarin somewhere in the MCU?

I like to think that exact situation happened to Batroc as well.
Kind of the wrong thread, but my head-canon is that the Eobard Thawne from the Flash series is actually from one of the comic book universes. He is trying to make that world more like the comics, and he is succeeding.
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  #3253  
Old 05-04-2015, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by krelbel View Post
re: fertilitygate, I think reading "all infertile people are monsters!" from Black Widow's line in that scene requires deliberately choosing the worst faith interpretation possible, and I didn't get anything remotely close to that message in context, nor did anyone I know. This seems like quite the stretch.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm not saying that anyone who interpreted it differently in the moment is wrong, but when I saw that scene I thought it was really weird that Black Widow was calling infertile people monsters. It's a really fast moving action movie, I don't think anyone is analyzing every line as it happens. It's not implausible that some people took it differently than you and your friends did without them looking for the worst in it.
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  #3254  
Old 05-04-2015, 02:14 PM
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I haven't read the majority of the arguments. And I'm not really going to, because unless there are some women on here talking about this topic, I think everyone should probably shut up.

That said...

I heard it as her FEELING like a monster for that reason.

And I'm not going to talk about how I know, because it's very personal. But it is absolutely a thing for women who can't have kids to feel that way. To feel so broken and useless. It's a thing.

Moving on...

The movie was great. I loved everything about it. It was complex, dark, yet completely tight and funny.
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  #3255  
Old 05-04-2015, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by The Keith View Post
I haven't read the majority of the arguments. And I'm not really going to, because unless there are some women on here talking about this topic, I think everyone should probably shut up.

That said...

I heard it as her FEELING like a monster for that reason.

And I'm not going to talk about how I know, because it's very personal. But it is absolutely a thing for women who can't have kids to feel that way. To feel so broken and useless. It's a thing.

Moving on...

The movie was great. I loved everything about it. It was complex, dark, yet completely tight and funny.

Credentials: I am going back to work for the first time after my hysterectomy tomorrow.
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  #3256  
Old 05-04-2015, 03:50 PM
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I have to agree with it being a bad faith reading, but I also agree it could have been removed and the film would have been no worse for it.
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  #3257  
Old 05-04-2015, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
I have to agree with it being a bad faith reading, but I also agree it could have been removed and the film would have been no worse for it.
I am under no "good faith" obligation when reading any media. I can only report my experiences, and my experience was that the line felt jarring and out-of-place, with uncomfortable implications that took me out of a scene I was, up until that point, really enjoying.
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  #3258  
Old 05-04-2015, 04:28 PM
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I don't really understand what you mean by a "good faith obligation", and I don't have any stake or interest in undermining anyone's experience of that scene.
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  #3259  
Old 05-04-2015, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
I don't really understand what you mean by a "good faith obligation", and I don't have any stake or interest in undermining anyone's experience of that scene.
Could you explain what you mean by the phrase 'bad faith reading?' Generally saying that someone is arguing in bad faith means that they are being dishonest or don't really believe what they are arguing.

E- I think it would be in bad faith if someone now tried to argue that Marvel intended it as a slight against people who can't have children, but I don't think anyone here is saying that. It's just a poorly written piece of dialogue that's easy to interpret in a kind of jarring way.
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  #3260  
Old 05-04-2015, 04:57 PM
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No, you seem to know exactly what it means already.
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  #3261  
Old 05-04-2015, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by madhair60 View Post
No, you seem to know exactly what it means already.
I thought you might have meant something else by it, but I'll just say that I'm being honest about my first impressions of that scene.
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  #3262  
Old 05-04-2015, 06:00 PM
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This is what we're gonna discuss about this movie, huh?
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  #3263  
Old 05-04-2015, 06:10 PM
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I'll say it one more time. Hulk bites a god damned robot's head clean off.
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  #3264  
Old 05-04-2015, 06:13 PM
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I still wish Friday was this movie's way of hinting at a Power Pack movie.
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  #3265  
Old 05-04-2015, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
This is what we're gonna discuss about this movie, huh?

We can talk about the evolution of Tony Stark from sarcastic rich playboy to sarcastic rich vigilante to sarcastic rich Donald Rumsfeld. Robert Downey Jr. has made a deeply paranoid, authoritarian weapons manufacturer into a cute, amiable fella with *bounces hips* a sassy attitude.

Watch him rattle off some whimsical pop culture jokes while he constructs a malevolent security system in a foolish attempt to keep the world safe. But such epic malice and incompetence won't cost him a job on the team, nor prison time, despite many loss of life in the process.

Meanwhile, the only skeptical voice on the team, who also provides the only legitimate (and benevolent) form of leadership is Captain America of all people. The symbol—now with the "good war" WWII out of the way—of the world's most destructive and rapacious imperial power. It says something when the dull, All-American Hero is the gadfly of the group.

We could also talk about how Bruce Banner should have been that voice (or have any damn voice) on the team but instead he's little more than a dude who turns into a crazily destructive monster. Hulk smash and nothing more.

Let's not get started on Thor. That talk will last about two seconds. He's just there to take his shirt off and wave around a hammer as if posing like Fabio for a romance book cover.

The whole team... sucks.
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  #3266  
Old 05-04-2015, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
This is what we're gonna discuss about this movie, huh?
It's basically the main point of contention among fandom at large (to the point that one fan on Tumblr mentioned that was the scene in which she walked out), so yes.

I mean, I enjoyed the movie because I got what I expected out of it - an action-packed popcorn flick that doesn't outstay it's welcome - but I still think that conversation could have been rephrased better to not make it sound like "Black Widow thinks she's a monster because the Red Room sterilized her".
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  #3267  
Old 05-04-2015, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo Bill View Post
This is what we're gonna discuss about this movie, huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy View Post
We can talk about the evolution of Tony Stark from sarcastic rich playboy to sarcastic rich vigilante to sarcastic rich Donald Rumsfeld. Robert Downey Jr. has made a deeply paranoid, authoritarian weapons manufacturer into a cute, amiable fella with *bounces hips* a sassy attitude.

Watch him rattle off some whimsical pop culture jokes while he constructs a malevolent security system in a foolish attempt to keep the world safe. But such epic malice and incompetence won't cost him a job on the team, nor prison time, despite many loss of life in the process.

Meanwhile, the only skeptical voice on the team, who also provides the only legitimate (and benevolent) form of leadership is Captain America of all people. The symbol—now with the "good war" WWII out of the way—of the world's most destructive and rapacious imperial power. It says something when the dull, All-American Hero is the gadfly of the group.

We could also talk about how Bruce Banner should have been that voice (or have any damn voice) on the team but instead he's little more than a dude who turns into a crazily destructive monster. Hulk smash and nothing more.

Let's not get started on Thor. That talk will last about two seconds. He's just there to take his shirt off and wave around a hammer as if posing like Fabio for a romance book cover.

The whole team... sucks.
oh god no

let's please go back to just talking about that one line, thanks
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  #3268  
Old 05-04-2015, 07:17 PM
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Can I mention that I actually really liked A2 and thought it was miles better than A1? The characterizations were so much more in line with what they should have been based on the origin movies (Cap and Thor in particular were horrible in A1) and the quips worked better. I loved the entire Iron Man v. Hulk fight, and I usually check out during extended action scenes.

The reason I'm focusing on the Widow/Banner scene is that it was the one super sour note in what I thought was an otherwise great movie.

And it wasn't just the one line. Romanov tells Banner "I'd like to try this dating thing," and he immediately leaps to HULK NO HAVE BABBIES EVER. I mean, what the fuck? It's not like she was proposing marriage. He could have demurred in a whole bunch of different ways, the most obvious being HULK KINDA TERRIFIED HE MURDER GIRL IN SLEEP BECAUSE SHE KICK IN BED. But no, he's got to act like the kind of OKC date you duck out of the bathroom to get away from because he's already picking out china patterns on his phone before the appetizers have even been served.

And the forced sterilization itself. For the love of small fuzzy kittens, can we just STOP with gendered violence used for the sake of character development? This is absolutely no different than rape-as-backstory, only even more horrifying, and I'm sick to death of it. You hurt a man by shooting or stabbing him, you hurt a woman by devaluing her as a woman. Every. Single. Goddamn. Time.

We've already gone over the "monster" line itself and why it's problematic, so I don't have much more to say about it.
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  #3269  
Old 05-04-2015, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Droewyn View Post
And the forced sterilization itself. For the love of small fuzzy kittens, can we just STOP with gendered violence used for the sake of character development? This is absolutely no different than rape-as-backstory, only even more horrifying, and I'm sick to death of it. You hurt a man by shooting or stabbing him, you hurt a woman by devaluing her as a woman. Every. Single. Goddamn. Time.
This articulates what I couldn't put to words before on this now-dubbed "infertilitygate." It's crap and I can't believe smart people thought it was a good idea to begin with. Shame on them. And all that.
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  #3270  
Old 05-04-2015, 07:36 PM
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This looks like our old nemesis The Patriarchy, and his sidekick, Internalized Misogyny! The writers wanted to have something bad to BW that wasn't actually rape, because rape would of course be problematic, but didn't actually think through the implications of what they came up with far enough to see that it's basically the same thing. And now I guess Joss deleted his twitter because of a flood of criticism?
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